How do I get more detailed bass?

[Anonymous]

I would normally always listen to rick @ musicraft, but in this instance, to say that a pre amp of the quality of the DAC XP is the problem in a setup with CM1s, is just plain unfair!

 

[Anonymous]

You shouldn't underestimate room acoustics, IMHO. Have you tried changing the distance between the speakers and the wall, or between you and the speakers? Although this won't change the level of detail directly, it might change the balance between various bass frequencies and the mid/high.

The CM1's, bless their little hearts, are far too small and far too ported to get decent bass from, even if you feed them with the best recording in the world, the best source and the best power amps.

That's interesting. I'd say that my ported IQ7's have much better bass definition than my sealed SA1's. So, presumably, size matters more than design?

a single cable into the back of some actives is very appealing.

It will also be very quiet (actives need two cables: power and signal).

 

[Frank Harvey]

The recommendation of the replacing of Cyrus pre-amplification, regardless of it's abilities, is becoming quite boring now, especially when it's by individuals that aren't familiar with the current DACxp+ and have no experience of it in different systems and locations. We use it with the Mono X300 monoblocks driving the KEF Blades, which is a very revealing system, and we don't feel the urge to pop a £400 NAD pre-amp in it's place. In this system, it's hard to criticise it, and my work colleague, who has used the DACxp+ at home (as have I) has stated that he prefers it to the Bryston BP26 pre-amp, which is almost twice the price. That's how good it is. So this "change it" nonsense is, well, nonsense.

mattc76, you are quite right in picking up on the B&W CM1's as the culprits of your problem - they're holding your system back. While the CM1's are good speakers, their tonal balance isn't geared towards a detailed bass. There will even be other speakers at the same price point that will give you partly what you're looking for, without the need for spending thousands. Beware of taking things too far, as the X Power isn't going to do speakers like the 805's justice.

I'd recommend looking at the KEF R100 or R300, ProAc Studio 115, PMC Twenty.21, and the Monitor Audio GX50 or GX100 as a starting point to see if these are more suitable for your requirements. You're going to have to audition alternatives to your CM1's as it's only you who knows exactly what you're looking for - what you tell us will be open to interpretation.

 

[Anonymous]

^^ thats more like it!

 

[airconace]

I can thoroughly recommend the Spendor A6's for bass performance. They do not need loads of power either as I get more than enough volume from them with my Sugden Mystro amplifier.

When I went to demo the Spendors I just wanted to play more and more CD's, always a good sign on a demo.

Wife complains about the vibrating floor at the other side of the house....................

Can be purchased for less if your are patient, mine were £1500 ex. demo.

Cheers,

Harry.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

I would normally always listen to rick @ musicraft, but in this instance, to say that a pre amp of the quality of the DAC XP is the problem in a setup with CM1s, is just plain unfair!

Hi krlock3

You are more than welcome to differ with me however in my experience i still feel that Cyrus pre amplifiers are not on par with the standard of their source components and power amps. Therefore at present i'll recommend that alternative makes of pre amplification are looked at so as to help further unlock or near as completely unlock the potential of the associated electronics in the system.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Cpt.Issues]

I found mass loading my stands firmed up the bass a touch but only by a barely tangable amount. If you wanted to seriously add to the presence and depth of bass would you consider adding a sub as an option?

 

[lindsayt]

Lindsayt - could you recommend any? Preferably second hand. I came very close recently to bidding on some b&w 805s recently (infact I did bid on them but they went only slightly too high), my other shortlisted ones were spendor a6's, some sort of similarly priced dynaudios or the new b&w pm1s but I'd have to buy these new and hopefully try and wangle a good deal on some stands and speaker cable!

Don't buy the 805's nor the B&w PM1's. They're too tiny and too ported for good bass.

Don't buy the Spendor A6's. They're too small with that tiny mid-bass cone and too ported for good bass.

A few recommendations for under £500:

Bozak Symphony, Goodmans Magister, Celestion Ditton 66.

If you can stretch the budget to over £500:

Bozak Concert Grands, Yamaha NSM1000's, EV Patricians.

There must be quite a few other speakers similar to the one's I've mentioned that will give you above average bass. If you stick to tiny speakers you will only ever have below average bass. Which is fine if you only want small speakers. Just pointing out that tiny speakers are physically incapable of genuinely good bass (with the current technologies available) to avoid you going on some wild goose chase Holy Grail type search. And by good I mean as good as or better than the bass from speakers like the Bozak Symphonys.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Hi krlock3
You are more than welcome to differ with me however in my experience i still feel that Cyrus pre amplifiers are not on par with the standard of their source components and power amps.

Have you heard a DACxp+? I suspect not, having given out that advice. It's almost like saying, "the problem with your Bryston system is your power amplifier".

 

[Clare Newsome]

A friendly word re keeping it friendly, please

 

[Frank Harvey]

I think we need a reminder of what the OP is after - any of the qualities that the OP is asking for, as quoted below, can be had from small/medium sized speakers. In fact, depending on budget, he's more likely to get it from speakers that aren't too big.

Im not necessarily after earth shattering bass but what I do want is real clarity, detail and separation in the bass region

 

[Dan Turner]

I found mass loading my stands firmed up the bass a touch but only by a barely tangable amount. If you wanted to seriously add to the presence and depth of bass would you consider adding a sub as an option?

I don't disagree, but I've found that the results of filling speaker stands can be rather unpredictable and very much depends on the speakers in question and how they interact with the room they are in.

For instance i had long struggled with too much bass from my speakers in my room and I did what I thought was the logical thing and gradually filled the stands more and more thinking that it would bring greater control, and I thought that it did, however I also felt that the dynamics of the sound were suffering, so having got to the point where the stands were filled completely, I tried emptying them, and it was a revalation. There was so much more life and 'bounce' to the sound, but the surprising thing was that the bass didn't seem to be excessive or any looser, quite the contrary, it made me realise that with the stands filled, the bass had taken on what can only be described as an oppressive 'overly-tight' quality that actually increased the perception of excess. It's completely counter-intuitive I know, but I'm not going to complain because I finally feel that after a year of struggling that I've truly got my Neats working as they should in my room.

So anyway my recommendation to the OP would be to try the stands unfilled, filled or half-filled, whatever he hasn't tried already.

 

[WinterRacer]

Matt, please audition some active speakers before spending any money. It won't cost you anything and you may find what you're looking for.

Over a year ago I bought some AVI ADM9.1s as a 2nd system. Now the AVIs are the '1st' system and £8Ks worth of passive kit has been sold. Now I've heard the active sound, every passive speaker I've heard booms. If you're after bass definition, please try active. Sorry if that sounds like a hard sell, I just wish I'd known this before shelling out £000s.

BTW, if you want to know why active speakers don't boom and passive ones do, just google...

 

[mattc76]

Wow! A whole load of great responses. I'm on my laptop now so its much easier to reply than on my iphone!

I was also not that concerned to have big overall bass, just detail and definition.... I have cyrus monoblocks and, even with a lot of power, the bass is not boomy, but it is detailed and defined.

This is exactly what I want - detailed and defined bass. I'm happy with the treble and mids but the detail in the bass is just not there. Also my setup does NOT boom. I have the speakers set up either side of a bay window about 3m apart and have half of the foam bungs in each speaker. I can hear the bass and it is in the right proportion to the rest of the music (ie not bass heavy or bass light) BUT I cannot really pick out the bass track like I can the highs (but it is there!).

Beware of taking things too far, as the X Power isn't going to do speakers like the 805's justice.

I have always been given the impression that the X-power was excellent and thus easily able to drive and do the 805s's and I suppose the PM1s justice? Are you saying that these speakers would be overkill for the DAC XP and X-power? Incidently do you think its worth the upgrade from the DAC-XP to the DAC-XP+?

I found mass loading my stands firmed up the bass a touch but only by a barely tangable amount. If you wanted to seriously add to the presence and depth of bass would you consider adding a sub as an option?

Bass depth in itself is not the issue really. I feel that I have enough bass - it just isn't that well defined/detailed like the highs are. In fact I think the balance between the highs/mids/lows is actually spot on (to my ears!). Having said all that, I am ALWAYS a bit disappointed listening to "that low note" on track 1 of the dark knight soundtrack when all I get is basically "port-chuffing" with only the slightest aroma of some sort of musical note. What sort of speakers could do that track justice or would only a sub do?

Actually thats just reminded me to connect my PSX-R to my X-power to see if that makes a difference.......might be getting a bit late though as if I wake my URTI-ridden daughter I will be in deep do-do.....

 

[Cpt.Issues]

Bass depth in itself is not the issue really. I feel that I have enough bass - it just isn't that well defined/detailed like the highs are. In fact I think the balance between the highs/mids/lows is actually spot on (to my ears!). Having said all that, I am ALWAYS a bit disappointed listening to "that low note" on track 1 of the dark knight soundtrack when all I get is basically "port-chuffing" with only the slightest aroma of some sort of musical note. What sort of speakers could do that track justice or would only a sub do?

Why So Serious? - Hans Zimmer & James Newton Howard at 3:27 ish? I can't even detect much coming from my 685s at that precise point to be honest it nearly all seems to be coming through the subwoofer.

(And now my housemate complaining his bedroom floor is rumbling or something, - thanks for that )

 

[WinterRacer]

...Also my setup does NOT boom. I have the speakers set up either side of a bay window about 3m apart and have half of the foam bungs in each speaker. I can hear the bass and it is in the right proportion to the rest of the music (ie not bass heavy or bass light) BUT I cannot really pick out the bass track like I can the highs (but it is there!).

I think what you're describing here I've described as boom. Try listening on headphones, is that the bass definition you're after? IME, that's what good actives can give you.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Closed back headphones sound awful - proof that there's pros and cons to everything....

 

[lindsayt]

I think we need a reminder of what the OP is after - any of the qualities that the OP is asking for, as quoted below, can be had from small/medium sized speakers. In fact, depending on budget, he's more likely to get it from speakers that aren't too big.

Im not necessarily after earth shattering bass but what I do want is real clarity, detail and separation in the bass region

If your definition of small/medium sized is Yamaha NSM1000 sized or bigger then I agree. You can get a pretty good compromise of speaker size, bass extension and bass quality in a well executed non-ported speaker of this size.

If your definition of small/medium sized is Spendor A6 or smaller then I disagree.

With speakers that size or smaller you have the following problems:

If you seal the box up you lose bass extension. Lose that and the bass rolls off at too high a frequency. Too high to give you detailed kick drums, bass guitars, 32 foot organ pipes. They won't be detailed because they'll be 6dbs or more quieter than they should. They'll be buried in the mix. With speakers that have too small a sealed box compared to the size of bass cone you also have another problem: the spring effect of the air inside the box on the bass cone - which will adversely affect transient response. Most pop and rock music contains a series of percussive transients. Not good if you're curtailing these transients.

If you unseal the box: ie use ports or transmission lines you get more bass extension on your measured frequency response curve than with a sealed box. You get this by using some of the energy radiated off the back of the bass cone and releasing this via the hole in the speaker. This energy gets mixed up with the sound coming off the front of the bass cones. Not good from a bass detail, timing, clarity, tightness, lack of distortion point of view.

With properly engineered large speakers cones in large cabinets you get more bass extension with bass detail.

For good quality, detailed bass you need speakers that will grip the air in your room. Not speakers that will tickle the air in your room. Not speakers that will huff and puff on the air in your room. This applies at low listening levels as well as high ones.

I think it's utter nonsense to link bass clarity, separation and detail with budget. When £500 can buy you Bozak Symphonys. £800 Bozak Concert Grands. Or A N Other large purist vintage speaker.

It's not the lack of budget that's the problem. It's the willingness to live with large speaker cabinets that's the problem.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I think you need to read the OP's requirements again. He's NOT after bass extension. He doesn't need wardrobes to get what he needs.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I have always been given the impression that the X-power was excellent and thus easily able to drive and do the 805s's and I suppose the PM1s justice? Are you saying that these speakers would be overkill for the DAC XP and X-power? Incidently do you think its worth the upgrade from the DAC-XP to the DAC-XP+?

The X Power certainly is an excellent power amplifier, but all amplifiers have their limits. An amplifier will sound far better driving a speaker it has total control over than it will a speaker it only has partial control over. I hope that makes sense.

Speakers like the 805's are designed around amplification like Classe. They'll work with a £500 amplifier, and to many they will sound ok, maybe even great, but they'll not be performing as they've been intended. For the PM1's, I'd be recommending the X Power as a starting point.

Keep the + upgrade for the DACxp for a later date - that won't solve your current issue.

 

[noogle]

Move over to the world of black boxes from Wiltshire...

 

[Anonymous]

Many things matter in hi fi.

You might want to experiment with moving your speakers somewhat further apart and toeing them in towards the listening position in small increments to see if that makes a difference. This "might" help focus the bass more tightly.

Room acoustics are almost certainly the most important part of hi fi setup that most people do not give enough attention to.

You should play around with moving them out from the wall if they are not already moved out.

Think also about the surfaces in your room. For example, carpets or a rug work much better than bare floorboards.

Personally I would look at upgrading your CM1s to something else (or using them for rears in a home cinema setup as I do?), potentially a floorstander.

You could then use the X power on these, or borrow a second x power for home demo and use them in monoblock mode (they have a switch on the back enabling this).

I would also concur that upgrading the DAC at this point would not be sensible.... after you are getting the sound you want... then the DAC upgrade will bring the icing on the cake.

Im no expert, but I went through a similar process to you, and my advice is based on that.

Do let us know what helps!

Wow! A whole load of great responses. I'm on my laptop now so its much easier to reply than on my iphone!

I was also not that concerned to have big overall bass, just detail and definition.... I have cyrus monoblocks and, even with a lot of power, the bass is not boomy, but it is detailed and defined.

This is exactly what I want - detailed and defined bass. I'm happy with the treble and mids but the detail in the bass is just not there. Also my setup does NOT boom. I have the speakers set up either side of a bay window about 3m apart and have half of the foam bungs in each speaker. I can hear the bass and it is in the right proportion to the rest of the music (ie not bass heavy or bass light) BUT I cannot really pick out the bass track like I can the highs (but it is there!).

 

[mattc76]

Well I'm just in the process of experimenting with connecting the PSXR to the X-Power (instead of the DAC XP). I have noticed 2 things. Firstly the highs are more laid back and seem less detailed and spacious - almost as if its slightly veiled - not unpleasant just different. I imagine this is what a warmer less clinical amp is like? The bass however is different - definately punchier in that you can feel it more in the back of your throat/chest (!?) which makes the whole sound seem more dynamic despite the less detailed highs even at low volumes. I would say this is definately an improvement. Also it seems that I can now take the port bungs out completely without there being any booming - again this is good because the bass seems to be digging deeper (as it were). However what all this is telling me is that I think i'm getting to the performance limit of the CM1s.....

 

[WinterRacer]

Closed back headphones sound awful - proof that there's pros and cons to everything....

Wow, that's a sweeping statement and sure I didn't mention anything about closed back headphones.

Perhaps we can agree that active speakers present bass differently to passive speakers?

If so, wouldn't you agree it's worth the OP auditioning some active speakers to see if they make more of a difference than a new (& expensive) pre-amp or power-supply, for example?

 

[Frank Harvey]

Closed back headphones sound awful - proof that there's pros and cons to everything....

Wow, that's a sweeping statement and sure I didn't mention anything about closed back headphones.

About as sweeping as your headphone statement

Perhaps we can agree that active speakers present bass differently to passive speakers?

All speakers are trying to convey bass as accurately as possible, or as accurately as their design allows.

If so, wouldn't you agree it's worth the OP auditioning some active speakers to see if they make more of a difference than a new (& expensive) pre-amp or power-supply, for example?

It may well be worth it, but all he has to do is change his speakers in order to utilise the excellent pre and power amplifier that he already has.