Horrible experience with Q Acoustics 2020i

[spiny norman]

A technical question - I'm not an electrical engineer - is it possible for amp manufacturers to devise an automatic cut off system to operate when the output reaches the point where damage to speakers is likely?

Some amps do have such protection stratgeies built-in; NAD, for example, has/had a 'soft clipping' switch on some of its models to lessen the chance of speaker damage. But as is often stated, you're much more likely to damage speakers with an underpowered amp driven too hard into clipping than with an amp of greater nominal output power than the speaker's maximum suggested power handling. It's dirty output that does the damage, not too much clean power.

 

[slice]

thanks

 

[nirvy111]

I think this is more a case of mis-match rather then mis-use, maybe a bit of both. The NAD d3020 is only 30 watts per channel and the 2020i aren't the most efficient speakers at 6 ohm 88db, combined this with playing at high volumes and the speakers got fried, two pair to be exact. There's no reason why the q acoustics can't safely play as loud as the MA bx2's or any other speakers, if he had a more poweful amp, a 100 watts per channel say, the speakers probably would have been o.k.

 

[MaxD]

I think this is more a case of mis-match rather then mis-use, maybe a bit of both. The NAD d3020 is only 30 watts per channel and the 2020i aren't the most efficient speakers at 6 ohm 88db, combined this with playing at high volumes and the speakers got fried, two pair to be exact. There's no reason why the q acoustics can't safely play as loud as the MA bx2's or any other speakers, if he had a more poweful amp, a 100 watts per channel say, the speakers probably would have been o.k.

Sorry but I doubt it. Even if I agree interfacing a poor quality under power amp and crank the volume at 10 out of 10, you could maybe damage some poor speakers. Then this wasn't the case: desk testing in NAD lab of my D 3020 proved it can safely provide 42 Watt per channel on 8 Ohm with practically no distortion and 67 Watt per channel on 4 Ohm with neglgible distortion, quietly neither.

Q Acoustics 2020i seller had this data from me in his hands, probably becouse he will use it to have Q Acoustics speakers he exchanged to me with another brand repaired under warrantly. If he exchanged two pairs of my speakers under warrantly it admitted it was Q Acoustics fault like reading my OP it surely was.

And, related to system matching, it is totally reasonable match a classy amp (totally NOT underpowered) with speakers rated for a 25-100 Watt amp. Q Acoustics 2020i state 25-100 Watt amp and it doesn't say in any point "please do not turn up the volume becouse if you do it, I will die".

And related with the first pair of speakers, they never broke like the second pair: they just used to crank on bass at high volume. So believe me, thank you for your opinion, then there is no mis-use or mis-match in what happened to me, everything should had been optimal, if it wasn't the two pairs of Q Acoustics 2020i I had in my hands proved to be fragile piece of hardware components.

Even touching the MA BX2, even look at them, you feel a much more stronger type of speaker, something solid, with his metallic parts. And they proved to me to be a completely different pair of speakers, they have no problem at all, they are SOLID.

Someone had asked here if amp sellers could introduce something potentially stopping electrical distortion: they always did it, my NAD D 3020 goes into protection for every little mis-use he can detect. Example, if you move a speaker during playin, it suddenly shut hisself down for protection. So they always have this mechanism.

It is speakers vendors that should calibrate a speaker better, first of all they should respect them own made specs they declare on them sheets (and it didn't in my 2020i case).

 

[Broner]

I think this is more a case of mis-match rather then mis-use, maybe a bit of both. The NAD d3020 is only 30 watts per channel and the 2020i aren't the most efficient speakers at 6 ohm 88db, combined this with playing at high volumes and the speakers got fried, two pair to be exact. There's no reason why the q acoustics can't safely play as loud as the MA bx2's or any other speakers, if he had a more poweful amp, a 100 watts per channel say, the speakers probably would have been o.k.

Sorry but I doubt it. Even if I agree interfacing a poor quality under power amp and crank the volume at 10 out of 10, you could maybe damage some poor speakers. Then this wasn't the case: desk testing in NAD lab of my D 3020 proved it can safely provide 42 Watt per channel on 8 Ohm with practically no distortion and 67 Watt per channel on 4 Ohm with neglgible distortion, quietly neither.

Q Acoustics 2020i seller had this data from me in his hands, probably becouse he will use it to have Q Acoustics speakers he exchanged to me with another brand repaired under warrantly. If he exchanged two pairs of my speakers under warrantly it admitted it was Q Acoustics fault like reading my OP it surely was.

And, related to system matching, it is totally reasonable match a classy amp (totally NOT underpowered) with speakers rated for a 25-100 Watt amp. Q Acoustics 2020i state 25-100 Watt amp and it doesn't say in any point "please do not turn up the volume becouse if you do it, I will die".

And related with the first pair of speakers, they never broke like the second pair: they just used to crank on bass at high volume. So believe me, thank you for your opinion, then there is no mis-use or mis-match in what happened to me, everything should had been optimal, if it wasn't the two pairs of Q Acoustics 2020i I had in my hands proved to be fragile piece of hardware components.

Even touching the MA BX2, even look at them, you feel a much more stronger type of speaker, something solid, with his metallic parts. And they proved to me to be a completely different pair of speakers, they have no problem at all, they are SOLID.

Someone had asked here if amp sellers could introduce something potentially stopping electrical distortion: they always did it, my NAD D 3020 goes into protection for every little mis-use he can detect. Example, if you move a speaker during playin, it suddenly shut hisself down for protection. So they always have this mechanism.

It is speakers vendors that should calibrate a speaker better, first of all they should respect them own made specs they declare on them sheets (and it didn't in my 2020i case).

It would be great if someone around here would take explain a bit better why it is likely that you did push the speakers too far for your specific amp. It seems to me that you don't yet fully understand how that can happen, and my own knowledge about this matter is too limited to really explain it properly.

 

[MaxD]

... I can crank my NAD D 3020 volume up to 100 x 100 and they still sound great with pretty much no distortion and especially they do not fail.

Is that as far as the volume control will go?

If so, the 2020s were probably doing you a favour. They were sacrificing themselves before your ears got damaged.

You can get an app for your smartphone that will measure SPL in dBs. They aren't super accurate but give a pretty good idea.

If - when held pointing at the speakers from where you listen - the levels are continuously over 85dB then it is likely your hearing is damaged anyway.

Hey thankx for your reply! You introduced me to a new, interesting word: SPL apps I didn't know they do exist! Ok, i loaded one I liked on my iPad (actually SPL Volume Meter) and - well - during actual listening of Led Zeppelin III (Deluxe edition, god bless Jimmy Page for this recordings at 96K) pressure apparently using MA BX2 with like - 5 db volume indication on D 3020 digital display went to 82 db on stronger moments

And well, my ear are pretty ok, I had doctors tested them (prevention, I'm doing ok, thankx), even after 30 years of Peavey powered electric guitars I still can listen everything very well. Yes, I'm also a musician, been in a lot of blues/hard rock bands, even if my day job is writer/journalist, call me like you prefer, I started messin with music play when I was like 7 years old, like 40 years ago

App said on quiet moments the SPL pressure was around 70 db.

I don't always listen at this volumes, when I'm writing I think SPL is 65/70 medium.

Do this makes me an addicted to noise?

I don't know, I had very many speakers, then just 2020i died that horrible dead And no, they didn't do me a favor. I just think I had to stick with my first impression when I listen BX2 for real from friends, in pubs, in clubs: I liked the way they sounded and I shouldn't had trusted Whathifi review and bought 2020i without any listen and testing before. Just Q Acoustics, even if cheap, have lil credibility from sellers in this historical, beautifull. sunny country.

 

[MaxD]

It would be great if someone around here would take explain a bit better why it is likely that you did push the speakers too far for your specific amp. It seems to me that you don't yet fully understand how that can happen, and my own knowledge about this matter is too limited to really explain it properly.

I understand it, yes. People here said to crank up the volume sent distortion from the amp to this 2020i speakers rated for 25-100 Watt. And I just said: NAD D 3020 on support desk proved to NOT introduce any distortion, and I still bought an amp perfectly fit and rated for Q Acoustics specifications.

Oh well, some of you guys want still buy Q Acoustics? Please do it. Then many of you never had such piece of hardware in them hands. I had both the Q Acoustics and the MA BX2 and simply look externally at the woofer an at the cone and you could get an idea becouse Q Acoustics are so cheap.

BTW, I think most of you do not understand that hi-fi hardware should be made to respect specification, offer reliability and first of all do not fail under normal condition of use. Speakers rated 25-100 watt? High quality Amp rated 30 + 30 Watt: on 8 ohm and 60 + 60 on 4 Ohm? Perfect, they shouldn't fail together. If, like someone said here, with a rated 100 + 100 Watt amp, Q Acoustics 2020i speakers hadn't fail, Q Acoustics should had written this on the specs.

And BTW matching a 100 + 100 Watt amp (probably around 1,500 $ ) with some cheapy 200 $ speakers just makes no sense and make the comparison just out of the real world.

 

[Cypher]

If you're happy with the BX2 speakers now that's all that matters isn't it ?

I can only say I'm happy with my 2020i speakers and never had problems with them. To be honest, before your topic, I never heard of any problems with the Q Acoustics range of speakers.

 

[MaxD]

If you're happy with the BX2 speakers now that's all that matters isn't it ?

I can only say I'm happy with my 2020i speakers and never had problems with them. To be honest, before your topic, I never heard of problems with the Q Acoustics range of speakers before.

Aren't you worried about the poor support they offer in case of problems?

 

[Cypher]

If you're happy with the BX2 speakers now that's all that matters isn't it ?

I can only say I'm happy with my 2020i speakers and never had problems with them. To be honest, before your topic, I never heard of problems with the Q Acoustics range of speakers before.

Aren't you worried about the poor support they offer in case of problems?

To be honest.........if you've created the problem by yourself (cranking up the amp at not healthy volumes) than there is nothing they can do about that.

 

[MaxD]

To be honest.........if you've created the problem by yourself (cranking up the amp at not healthy volumes) than there is nothing they can do about that.

Amp 60 + 60 Watt on 4 Ohm, Speakers 100 + 100 Watt on 4 Ohm?

Do you call it too much?

Have you read on Q Acoustics specs something related to a so called "healthy volume"? I read specification, and my system was perfectly balanced for my speakers.

If yes, Why the seller refunded me under warrantly?

Than it's ok, happy you are happy with your Q Acoustics 2020i, a brand that proved to me to offer poor support and I wish you good luck for your speakers

Just out of curiosity, why you wont fill your proper profile just to know about your listen profile, system, interests?

 

[Cypher]

Than it's ok, happy you are happy with your Q Acoustics 2020i, a brand that proved to me to offer poor support and I wish you good luck for your speakers

Thanks

 

[lindsayt]

Hey thankx for your reply! You introduced me to a new, interesting word: SPL apps I didn't know they do exist! Ok, i loaded one I liked on my iPad (actually SPL Volume Meter) and - well - during actual listening of Led Zeppelin III (Deluxe edition, god bless Jimmy Page for this recordings at 96K) pressure apparently using MA BX2 with like - 5 db volume indication on D 3020 digital display went to 82 db on stronger moments ...

MaxD, when you played your Q Acoustics at their loudest, was it about the same volume as when you measured 82db peaks with your BX2?

If it was, you were putting a grand total of about 1 watt through your Q Acoustics. That amount of power shouldn't damage the speakers if they were properly manufactured.

With the first pair you had, it sounds like you had the voice coil rubbing the magnet from your description. This is caused by a manufacturing defect. The sort of defect that's surprising it doesn't happen more often due to the tiny gap between voice coil and magnet.

BTW listening to music so that the troughs are at 70dbs and the peaks at 82dbs should be OK for not damaging your hearing. It's a generous volume but not too loud at all. It's when you start getting peaks at 95dbs or more that I would call it loud.

 

[MaxD]

Hey thankx for your reply! You introduced me to a new, interesting word: SPL apps I didn't know they do exist! Ok, i loaded one I liked on my iPad (actually SPL Volume Meter) and - well - during actual listening of Led Zeppelin III (Deluxe edition, god bless Jimmy Page for this recordings at 96K) pressure apparently using MA BX2 with like - 5 db volume indication on D 3020 digital display went to 82 db on stronger moments ...

MaxD, when you played your Q Acoustics at their loudest, was it about the same volume as when you measured 82db peaks with your BX2?

Yes it was pretty much the same. It is my attitude in listening to music, I try to reach pretty much the same level, this is my level where sound is full of details, it feels like it can still goes up and sound is totally clear. Just, Q Acoustics for the little time they were able to sound like this, was giving me a sensation of more hardness in the sound compared to BX2 and even to vintage Pioneer CS-535, those 2020i woofers also in the first pair always cranked up a bit, sound was never totally poor and controlled like with BX2.

Related with the 82db detected by the app: are them trustable? Calibration procedure doesn't seem a lot professional, it doesn't involve white noise, and I was wondering white noise is needed to calibrate sound levels. Then I'm not a proper audio phisical engineer (also if I record my stuff and I did some production and engineering work on commercial products both using analog and digital equipment in recording studios), so I'm not sure if I can trust that figure.

If it was, you were putting a grand total of about 1 watt through your Q Acoustics. That amount of power shouldn't damage the speakers if they were properly manufactured.

This is exactly my idea, and it is also the idea of the NAD repair center checking my amp. I can't understand why here someone keep saying I was abusing my speakers.

With the first pair you had, it sounds like you had the voice coil rubbing the magnet from your description. This is caused by a manufacturing defect. The sort of defect that's surprising it doesn't happen more often due to the tiny gap between voice coil and magnet.

Oh thank you, this is what I was wondering, then I do not have your skills, I never properly disassembled a speaker then it makes sense becouse when they used to crack on deep bass, even the voice was like a bit involved. And it makes sense considering this bookshelf speakers have to be a work of high engineering becouse they need to stretch all the pieces in little space.

BTW listening to music so that the troughs are at 70dbs and the peaks at 82dbs should be OK for not damaging your hearing. It's a generous volume but not too loud at all. It's when you start getting peaks at 95dbs or more that I would call it loud.

Never been worried about it. I listen music with satisfaction at what I perceive the right volume for my taste, and I hope this figures are correct, as I said before I'm not sure how much this apps can be trusted. I try to use quality equipment, for example as a musician my guitar and bass amps always been pevey when I play new stuff and vintage Voxx when I play older stuff. This is becouse they sound great for my pck, even when I run them distorted, the sound is always clear and controlled and I can't perceive dangerous vibrations. Never ever had Tinnitus in my whole life, and this means something. Same is when I listen music on my hi-fi: the goal is to listen as much clear as I can, even when I play Jimi Hendrix at 90db.

Thankx for your deeply technical reply: it introduces new elements to understand what happened with this 2020i speakers, and to try to understand if they are technically cheap rubbish or cheap gold.

For the support, well, I can say with a lot of certain security, they are not the best company around: no interest for the customer problem, no reply to e-mails, everything on seller shoulders: I understand why pretty much no one of my area stores want to hear about them.

 

[hifikrazy]

My listening level usually hits peaks of 95db so I'll be real surprised if a peak of 82db fried the OP's speakers

 

[LDTM]

My listening level usually hits peaks of 95db

Your handle, sir, sounds most appropriate :rockout:

 

[hifikrazy]

My listening level usually hits peaks of 95db

Your handle, sir, sounds most appropriate :rockout:

Say what? Can you speak up a bit?

 

[lindsayt]

Sound pressure apps might not be totally accurate, due to the lack of calibration, but they should be accurate to within a few dbs and therefore a good general guideline.

A lot of my listening has the peaks hitting 70 to 84 dbs. I'd agree with MaxD that this is the sort of volume where the music comes alive and it's easy to hear all the details and also to get some physical impact from the music, without getting so loud that it leaves your ears ringing. 70 dbs is the sort of volume that you'd get from a solo singer if they were standing in the room, belting out a tune without a microphone and PA system.

95 to 100dbs is what you'd get from an unamplified bass drum.

And coming back to a question in the original post: how do I test my speakers? First of all by a visual inspection. Mainly checking for rotten surrounds or pushed-in tweeters. Followed by playing some music queitly through them and putting my ear next to each driver to make sure all the drivers are working. Then by listening to them at my normal volumes and comparing them to what I've already got. This usually includes moving them around the room a bit to adjust the tonal balance / room interaction. I will also turn them up for a quick blast to check how they sound at really loud party / disco levels.

As for What Hi-fi giving the Q Acoustics lots of stars. The answer to that is that we can all have our own individual star rating system. My personal star rating system is calibrated very differently to the What Hi-fi one. It's far more difficult to get 4 or 5 stars in my system. That's fine. There's no right or wrong with this.

 

[nirvy111]

[/quote]

This is exactly my idea, and it is also the idea of the NAD repair center checking my amp. I can't understand why here someone keep saying I was abusing my speakers.

You mentioned a couple of times, if I understand you correctly, that you turned the NAD amp all the way up to 100% output, some would regard that as mis-use. If have to turn your amp all the way up to acheive the loudness you desire then that amp is seriously under powered for those speaker. You either need a more powerful amp or more sensative speakers.

 

[chebby]

As for What Hi-fi giving the Q Acoustics lots of stars. The answer to that is that we can all have our own individual star rating system.

You can get dizzy from the number of products awarded 5 stars from What Hi-fi?

That many products simply can't be that good.

I give just over three stars to my own system and I know that five stars would be so 'bonkers good' that I couldn't possibly afford it. What hi-fi are even giving five stars to sub £100 Bluetooth speakers!

 

[Cypher]

You mentioned a couple of times, if I understand you correctly, that you turned the NAD amp all the way up to 100% output, some would regard that as mis-use. If have to turn your amp all the way up to acheive the loudness you desire then that amp is seriously under powered for those speaker. You either need a more powerful amp or more sensative speakers.

I do not regard this as mis-use............this IS mis-use.

 

[MaxD]

As for What Hi-fi giving the Q Acoustics lots of stars. The answer to that is that we can all have our own individual star rating system.

You can get dizzy from the number of products awarded 5 stars from What Hi-fi?

That many products simply can't be that good.

I give just over three stars to my own system and I know that five stars would be so 'bonkers good' that I couldn't possibly afford it. What hi-fi are even giving five stars to sub £100 Bluetooth speakers!

They probably assign stars not in abolute value, they assign stars more on category-product-quality-price value. Then, IMHO, when something new is coming out, they tend to revise stars for older products. And this - especially for some kind of products like spakers - makes no sense. It should be curious to know for how long they listen the products when they review them. Reading the review they say, I'm listen this Kate Bush track, then this drumming from this OST and, ok, five stars, it is all done. What about the build of a product, how is it made, the component quality, the assembly, even the support? This makes a valid product exactly like the sound; my experience with Q Acoustics 2020i proved that sound is not enough if the product is cheapy made: like someone correctly said here, maybe you, you can't have margins for all the retail chain and still sell a five stars product at 150 £.

 

[davedotco]

Along with the 'companion' Nad D3020 thread, this is terrific stuff. I don't think I have ever seen so much confusion and miss-understandings in the same place at the same time.

Ther are at least half a dozen of the basic 'tenets' of the way hi-fi works that have been twisted beyond any rational understanding so i am going to address just a couple, just for the amusement of it all.

The OP is driving a D3020 40wpc (or thereabouts) into a pair of large three way speakers of some vintage. Speakers that are easy to drive with a sensitivity (1 watt at 1 meter) in the low to mid 90dB range.This is a well matched combo, that will drive to decent levels with some ease.

Replacing them with the 2020is, you now have a speaker that is about 6dB less sensitive that the Pioneers and almost certainly more complex and difficult to drive.

To get the 2020i to deliver the same level of output as the Pioneers you are going to have to drive them harder, 6dB harder in fact and as we all know this requires an amplifier with 6dB more output.

And of course an amplifier with 6dB more output than the 40 watt Nad needs to be 160 watts per channel. Easy to see how the Nad can be overdriven in such circumstances.

Secondly, the matter of the dac. The one in the D3020 will put out an analogue output sufficiant to drive the amplifier to full power and no more, this will need the volume control advanced close to maximum.

An outboard dac such as those mentioned will have an output voltage of at least 2 volts, and this is plugged into the Aux input of the amplifier. Now that input will have been designed to match all kinds of partnering equipment, most notably iPods and PMPs of all types. These will typically output 200-300 millivolts, so the sensitivily of that input will be set to match, probably around 400-500 millivolts.

Take the 2 plus volts from a dac and play it through an input of that sensitivity and the music is going to get loud very quickly, and as we all know louder is, most definitely better. It is extremely hard to match levels by ear but if the levels were matched accurately, so that we were hearing nothing but the differences between the dacs, then it would be tiny. In fact I would put money on the difference not being consistently audible in a blind test.

That's a couple of explanations for you, anyone want to chip in with a few more.....?

 

[Waxy]

I am a QAcoustics customer of a few months having shelled out for the Concept 40s. It was a gamble (like any such purchase) but they sounded great in my local hifi shop.

I'm not worried about them dying any more than I'm worried about my toaster going belly up.

I guess I'm just lucky as I've been listening to all manner of music (both smooth and bumpy) without any issue. If they do go "snap-crackle-pop", or just burst into flames, I know I can stick them in the back of the car and leave them with the dealer to sort out. I understand that the OP does not have this option. It's the main reason I buy AV items from an old-fashioned shop-type thing.

Of course, upon reading this thread, I was naturally concerned. Have I made a mistake buying them? Well, a few simple internet searches do not reveal a multitude of dissatisfied QAcoustics customers. People generally seem to report bad news more often than good and I would expect to read about any mass-reported problems.

I now await posts containing links to all the QAcoustics nightmare stories...

 

[MaxD]

Take the 2 plus volts from a dac and play it through an input of that sensitivity and the music is going to get loud very quickly, and as we all know louder is, most definitely better. It is extremely hard to match levels by ear but if the levels were matched accurately, so that we were hearing nothing but the differences between the dacs, then it would be tiny. In fact I would put money on the difference not being consistently audible in a blind test.

We all knows this, and it is valid for any external DAC. Then, me and the other poster in the other thread you hijacked on here, clearly said the quality of the external DAC compared to the internal DAC was tested at the SAME VOLUME level.

Do you own a NAD D 3020, a DragoFly 1.2 USB DAC and a Arcam IrDAC and want to test it by yourself and listen the quality of the sound before blab about obvious conventions well reported by me and the other poster in the hijacked thread?

PS: everything you said about this correct thread about Q Acoustics was always said and BTW, I now own Monitor Audio BX2: they peacefully deliver the same output power compared to the vintage Pioneer with the same level of sound. We all said and knows 2020i needed more to do that considering they are 4.4 Ohm, then it still isn't a reason, IMHO, for failing so pityfull.