High resolution audio. The science, or lack of...?

Page 33 - Seeking answers? Join the What HiFi community: the world's leading independent guide to buying and owning hi-fi and home entertainment products.

steve_1979

Well-known member
Jul 14, 2010
231
10
18,795
Visit site
Clare Newsome said:
Not everyone if - as you say yourself - you're buying a different (and to your ears better) master. And that is about a human being taking the love and care to restore music to nearer its original mastered state, before multiple pressings, compression and other evils got in way.

is every different master a 'better' one? That's when it gets subjective again. For example, I know some people that love the hi-res version of Thriller; others think it sounds sterile and robbed of life.

Knowing the bits involved can't tell you whether you will enjoy music!! That's as true for everyone who dismisses all HD music (including excellent remasters) as it is for the equally slavish who think everything HD 'must' be better

You're missing the point there Clair. :) It's the mastering which makes it sound different not the bit-rate.

Paying extra for a differently mastered version of music which is only likely to sell in small quantities is all good and fair enough. But why not release it in 16/44.1 format where it will still sound exactly the same as it does in 24/96?
 

AL13N

New member
Nov 29, 2009
26
0
0
Visit site
As far as the debate itself goes, I share the view that 24bit is beneficial for recording and 16 bit is ideal for playback, as described below:

SOS Forum

Hugh Robjohns said:
Again, few real world converters provide more than 20 bit performance anyway, and most domestic replay systems struggle to achieve the equivalent of 15 bits of dynamic range. The typical ambient background noise of a quiet domestic listening room might be 25SPL on a good day. Few high quality domestic speakers can produce peaks of 100dB SPL at the listening position. The very best with mighty amplification might achieve 110dB SPL or so -- if there are no neighbours or small children to worry about. So we're are looking -- at best -- of a usable dynamic range in the home of 75-85dB... which would require between 12 and 14 bits to encode perfectly, with the system noise floor swamped by the ambient acoustic noise floor, and sound level peaks painfully loud.

What I'm saying is that there is nothing wrong, restrictive, quality-limiting or inappropriate with 16 bit music reproduction systems for the domestic environment. It is actually the ideal format, in fact.

The 24 bit requirement comes from the need for higher quality (greater dynamic range and bandwidth) at the recording end of the chain so that the music production process has 'room to manoevre' -- so that unexpected peaks don't clip when recording, so that the noise floor doesn't become audible to the end user when dozens of tracks are mixed together, and so that the concatenation of band-limiting filters throughout the recording and post-production chain don't encroach on the wanted audio.

All of which means that 24 resolution is helpful at the recording and mixing end of the chain, but that 16 bit is absolutely fine for the reproduction end.

24 bit files offer no improvement in soundstage width, or mix dynamics, or timing fluidity... So if it sounded different it was a different mix. The only difference you should have heard would be a lower noise floor.

More information isn't recorded. This is a very common fallacy. A 16 bit system properly dithered can record and reproduce audio signals down to around -120dBFS the same as a 24 bit system. The only difference is that it's well into the noise floor in a 16 bit system, and roughly level with the noise floor in a 24 bit system. But it's the same audio information...

Look at it this way. Pros use 24 bit to enable a material to be recorded and mixed with adequate headroom without compromising the noise floor. Mastered tracks (currently) have no headroom. So to turn a 24 bit source recording to a mastered track you're going to introduce gain which raises the noise floor... And so you no long have 24 bit dynamic range any more. No 24 bit system delivers the theoretical 144dB signal-noise ratio. The best manage about 120dB, and most about 110dB. If a source recording leaves 15dB headroom -- which is not unusual -- removing the headroom to produce a masted track for commercial release will have a signal-noise ratio of 95dB at the very most... Which, funnily enough, is the same as a perfect 16 bit system.

As I said, 16 bits is entirely adequate and well optimised for consumer listening formats.
 

Clare Newsome

New member
Jun 4, 2007
1,657
0
0
Visit site
steve_1979 said:
Clare Newsome said:
Not everyone if - as you say yourself - you're buying a different (and to your ears better) master. And that is about a human being taking the love and care to restore music to nearer its original mastered state, before multiple pressings, compression and other evils got in way.

is every different master a 'better' one? That's when it gets subjective again. For example, I know some people that love the hi-res version of Thriller; others think it sounds sterile and robbed of life.

Knowing the bits involved can't tell you whether you will enjoy music!! That's as true for everyone who dismisses all HD music (including excellent remasters) as it is for the equally slavish who think everything HD 'must' be better

You're missing the point there Clair. :) It's the mastering which makes it sound different not the bit-rate.

Paying extra for a differently mastered version of music which is only likely to sell in small quantities is all good and fair enough. But why not release it in 16/44.1 format where it will still sound exactly the same as it does in 24/96?

i am not missing the point at all, (but thanks for both patronising me and getting my name wrong) ;-)

about a billion posts ago I already answered your point re formats, by the way. To reprise: premium products aimed at specialist consumers typically come in premium packaging; no difference here.
 

fr0g

New member
Jan 7, 2008
445
0
0
Visit site
Clare Newsome said:
fr0g said:
HD music costs almost twice as much as CD quality. I would say in this case it is a worthwhile cause to find out if it is worth buying. On the balance of the evidence I would say it isn't, other than where the master is different (and better).

It seems to me that everyone who buys HD music (me included) is being right royally shafted.

Not everyone if - as you say yourself - you're buying a different (and to your ears better) master. And that is about a human being taking the love and care to restore music to nearer its original mastered state, before multiple pressings, compression and other evils got in way.

is every different master a 'better' one? That's when it gets subjective again. For example, I know some people that love the hi-res version of Thriller; others think it sounds sterile and robbed of life.

Knowing the bits involved can't tell you whether you will enjoy music!! That's as true for everyone who dismisses all HD music (including excellent remasters) as it is for the equally slavish who think everything HD 'must' be better

The point is Clare that the "HD" "version" of anything can be released in CD quality and sound "identical".

The HD con is about pretending to give value where there is none. I would gladly pay a little more for a better recording...on CD, or CD quality download. It's now pretty obvious that that is all that is necessary.

But of course the con continues. High res capable players, magazines promoting it. etc.

Again, I absolutely want the best quality. But the HD name is a red herring. We already have a playback format that will give human beings the absolute best quality if that care you talk about is shown. We don't need HD for playback, I don't want to pay almost double and take chunks out of my download allowance for megabytes of silence, nobody needs HD other than those who create music, yet we are constantly being "sold" it as something to aspire to.

It's just nonsense. And it is dishonest.
 

Clare Newsome

New member
Jun 4, 2007
1,657
0
0
Visit site
Fr0g: In your opinion, of course.

and I'm sure you will similarly go onto other relevant forums and complain about 'ultra formulation' dishwasher tablets, 'new and improved' washing liquid, 'best ever' pizza, petrol that makes your car perform better and so on and so on.
 

manicm

Well-known member
fr0g, you haven't conclusively, absolutely proved it's only about the mastering, as Shadders would have it. Why don't you try and engage HD Tracks, Linn et al in a dialogue?

And eveything's a con these days as I argued with ProfessorHat. He called it maket forces, but I called it daylight robbery when you've purchased Netflix subscription, and Microsoft charges you further to access it through the Xbox One.

I repeat, if the high-res version sounds better (be it due to mastering, bit-rate or whateever), some will see value in it. End OF.
 

fr0g

New member
Jan 7, 2008
445
0
0
Visit site
manicm said:
fr0g, you haven't conclusively, absolutely proved it's only about the mastering, as lindsayt would have it. Why don't you try and engage HD Tracks, Linn et al in a dialogue?

And eveything's a con these days as I argued with ProfessorHat. He called it maket forces, but I called it daylight robbery when you've purchased Netflix subscription, and Microsoft charges you further to access it through the Xbox One.

I repeat, if the high-res version sounds better (be it due to mastering, bit-rate or whateever), some will see value in it. End OF.

No, not "End of", do you think you own the forum? You are missing the point ENTIRELY. (Which seems quite usual for you).

The point is, the HD version "doesn't need" to sound better. If it does it isn't because of the format, it is despite it. And that to me is subterfuge and is dishonest.
 

manicm

Well-known member
I am not missing the point entirely, because you have not proved that there is absolutely no merit to high-res audio, not scientifically anyway. It's simple fr0g, why not engage with Linn or HD Tracks. And if they don't provide a clear answer, or don't respond at all then I'll happily agree with you. Do I own the forum? Did I behave like I did?
 

fr0g

New member
Jan 7, 2008
445
0
0
Visit site
Clare Newsome said:
Fr0g: In your opinion, of course.

and I'm sure you will similarly go onto other relevant forums and complain about 'ultra formulation' dishwasher tablets, 'new and improved' washing liquid, 'best ever' pizza, petrol that makes your car perform better and so on and so on.

In my opinion, and anyone's who believes that differences at -80 dB or lower between the HD and downsampled version is not audible.

Your listening room if it is very quiet might be at 25 dB.

Your music if you play it loud may be up to around 90 dB, a whole 65 dB above the "silence" of the room. You will not hear the difference.

As for the dishwasher tablets, no, they are as you suggest, silly. But they don't charge through the nose for it either. HD is a smokescreen for charging over the odds for what we should be getting anyway.
 

matt49

Well-known member
Apr 7, 2013
62
19
18,545
Visit site
fr0g said:
No, not "End of", do you think you own the forum? You are missing the point ENTIRELY. (Which seems quite usual for you).

The point is, the HD version "doesn't need" to sound better. If it does it isn't because of the format, it is despite it. And that to me is subterfuge and is dishonest.

There's no need to start getting personal. It's a weak tactic and liable to lessen the force of an argument.
 

chebby

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2008
1,257
34
19,220
Visit site
Clare Newsome said:
chebby said:
Clare Newsome said:
...'new and improved' washing liquid ...

I won't hear a thing said against Aloe Vera & Cucumber Fairy Liquid.

ah, but have you analysed its scientific content before daring to possibly enjoying its refreshing scent and hand-softening promise ;-)

The evidence is overwhelming. No whiffy scourers and washing up sponges since we started using it. (Even if not rinsed and wrung out like they should be.)
 

steve_1979

Well-known member
Jul 14, 2010
231
10
18,795
Visit site
Clare Newsome said:
Fr0g: In your opinion, of course.

It's not an opinion. It's a fact that 16/44.1 can sound identical to 24/96. This has been proven many times (including in this thread by fr0g).

Unless of couse you have some sort of evidence/proof which would suggest otherwise. If you do I would be very interested to see it.

(sorry for the name thing by the way :) )
 

Clare Newsome

New member
Jun 4, 2007
1,657
0
0
Visit site
fr0g said:
As for the dishwasher tablets, no, they are as you suggest, silly. But they don't charge through the nose for it either. HD is a smokescreen for charging over the odds for what we should be getting anyway.

quick check on my grocery app shows me price of 30 dishwasher tablets ranges from £3.70 ('value' range) to £12 ('platinum')

Music is no different: it's a business. (Though harder to pirate dishwasher tablets, or torrent stream them )
 

BenLaw

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2010
475
7
18,895
Visit site
Clare Newsome said:
fr0g said:
As for the dishwasher tablets, no, they are as you suggest, silly. But they don't charge through the nose for it either. HD is a smokescreen for charging over the odds for what we should be getting anyway.

quick check on my grocery app shows me price of 30 dishwasher tablets ranges from £3.70 ('value' range) to £12 ('platinum')

Music is no different: it's a business. (Though harder to pirate dishwasher tablets, or torrent stream them )

Believe it or not there's quite a trade in fake washing powder from china.
 

altruistic.lemon

New member
Jul 25, 2011
64
0
0
Visit site
No, it's not a fact, it's your opinion, Steve79. Neither is it a con as the insouciant (new word, being wanting to try it out all day) Mr frog said. If a file says it's high res it absolutely is. As to whether you can hear a difference, isn't that as much to do with the speakers and the rest of the system as the resolution of the files, as some systems may not be able to accurately reproduce high res? Apparently one manufacturer has already said you won't hear differences on his system.
 

fr0g

New member
Jan 7, 2008
445
0
0
Visit site
Clare Newsome said:
fr0g said:
As for the dishwasher tablets, no, they are as you suggest, silly. But they don't charge through the nose for it either. HD is a smokescreen for charging over the odds for what we should be getting anyway.

quick check on my grocery app shows me price of 30 dishwasher tablets ranges from £3.70 ('value' range) to £12 ('platinum')

Music is no different: it's a business. (Though harder to pirate dishwasher tablets, or torrent stream them )

Fair enough, but it's a false analogy. There are real, provable differences between tablets. Not so between HD music and CD quality.

And more importantly, you have a sensible choice.

Whereas if they release a CD that is badly compressed, then an HD version that isn't, then I am forced to waste my bandwidth and money buying something that is marketed as being better "because" it's HD, when in reality, it is better because it is better, and could equally be sold in CD format.

We know that the analogue signal up to 20 KHz can be reformed perfectly. We know we can't hear sounds above that frequency. I now know that a null plot between HD and downsampled produces a flat signal only differing by less than is humanly audible.
 

steve_1979

Well-known member
Jul 14, 2010
231
10
18,795
Visit site
altruistic.lemon said:
No, it's not a fact, it's your opinion, Steve79. Neither is it a con as the insouciant (new word, being wanting to try it out all day) Mr frog said. If a file says it's high res it absolutely is. As to whether you can hear a difference, isn't that as much to do with the speakers and the rest of the system as the resolution of the files, as some systems may not be able to accurately reproduce high res? Apparently one manufacturer has already said you won't hear differences on his system.

The differences between 16/44.1 and 24/96 are less than -80dB down in volume or occur at ultrasonic frequencies over 20kHz. Even with the best hifi system in the world your ears won't hear it.
 

shadders

Well-known member
steve_1979 said:
Clare Newsome said:
Fr0g: In your opinion, of course.

It's not an opinion. It's a fact that 16/44.1 can sound identical to 24/96. This has been proven many times (including in this thread by fr0g).

Unless of couse you have some sort of evidence/proof which would suggest otherwise. If you do I would be very interested to see it.

(sorry for the name thing by the way :) )

Hi,

It is an opinion - you have stated :

It's a fact that 16/44.1 can sound identical to 24/96. This has been proven many times (including in this thread by fr0g).

This thread has not proved it, and you used the word can - which is not absolute.

fr0g has stated :

fr0g said:
Your listening room if it is very quiet might be at 25 dB.

Your music if you play it loud may be up to around 90 dB, a whole 65 dB above the "silence" of the room. You will not hear the difference.

I asked fr0g whether he believed that cables sound different or not. He has not yet replied.

I examined an old Hifi News review from January 2013 - two cable - Atlas Hyper 3.0 with 56pF/m and Black Rhodium Samba 30pF/m.

If you examine a 10kHz tone in to these they have a difference of approximately -70dB with regards to input current into a loudspeaker.

If the approximate calculation for cables produces a -70dB difference appearing at the speaker (0.04%), and fr0g states that a 65dB difference cannot be heard, then this indicates that the cables sound identical - their differences cannot be heard.

I have used the same process that fr0g used for the difference in 16bit and 24bit sources.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

shadders

Well-known member
fr0g said:
Clare Newsome said:
fr0g said:
As for the dishwasher tablets, no, they are as you suggest, silly. But they don't charge through the nose for it either. HD is a smokescreen for charging over the odds for what we should be getting anyway.

quick check on my grocery app shows me price of 30 dishwasher tablets ranges from £3.70 ('value' range) to £12 ('platinum')

Music is no different: it's a business. (Though harder to pirate dishwasher tablets, or torrent stream them )

We know that the analogue signal up to 20 KHz can be reformed perfectly. We know we can't hear sounds above that frequency. I now know that a null plot between HD and downsampled produces a flat signal only differing by less than is humanly audible.

Hi,

This is incorrect - it is an approximation. The use of higher bit rates and higher sampling rates reduces the error introduced by the analogue filter stage used to interpolate the signal - or by the digital filter in the DAC.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

TRENDING THREADS

Latest posts