HiFi proof is in the pudding

[lindsayt]

I agree regarding dynamics but not regarding clarity. You said yourself how wrong positioning could impact on bass. This would hugely impact on bass clarity. Muddiness, boomyness these are all clarity related.

It all depends.

I've had my hi-fi in about 20 different rooms over the years. The only time I've had a major problem was in a big empty room at a hi-fi show.

If I were into modern minimilast decor it's possible that I'd have had major problems in some of my rooms. But I'm not. I'm into traditional, well furnished rooms. So it's never been an issue for me - at home.

All a big fat it depends - with it depending on your taste in interior design.

Another "it depends" is whether the speakers that any particular person has liked enough to buy were designed for use in one quarter or one eighth space. If they were, then chances are, those speakers will sound fine in a variety of rooms. If on the other hand we're looking at speakers designed for full or half space eg dipoles such as Quad Electrostatics (great speakers BTW) , then finding the right room for them would be relatively important.

 

[insider9]

I agree regarding dynamics but not regarding clarity. You said yourself how wrong positioning could impact on bass. This would hugely impact on bass clarity. Muddiness, boomyness these are all clarity related.

It all depends.

I've had my hi-fi in about 20 different rooms over the years. The only time I've had a major problem was in a big empty room at a hi-fi show.

If I were into modern minimilast decor it's possible that I'd have had major problems in some of my rooms. But I'm not. I'm into traditional, well furnished rooms. So it's never been an issue for me - at home.

All a big fat it depends - with it depending on your taste in interior design.

Another "it depends" is whether the speakers that any particular person has liked enough to buy were designed for use in one quarter or one eighth space. If they were, then chances are, those speakers will sound fine in a variety of rooms. If on the other hand we're looking at speakers designed for full or half space eg dipoles such as Quad Electrostatics (great speakers BTW) , then finding the right room for them would be relatively important.

+1

 

[stereoman]

I agree regarding dynamics but not regarding clarity. You said yourself how wrong positioning could impact on bass. This would hugely impact on bass clarity. Muddiness, boomyness these are all clarity related.

Simply - you cannot change all sonic aspects of the speaker. The only physical aspect that changes are the suspension drivers that get a tiny bit loose during run-in. You can only alter the room acoustics so that you get tonal boost or stage differences. You cannot make a speaker more detailed, clearer, faster, by positioning. The frequency will stay the same. You can boost or elongate bass response adding stands for example. Still, the technical aspects will be the same. The most critical point is the run-in period of the speaker that actually exists ! It contributes only just a bit but in some cases it will play significant role whereas in other cases almost none.

 

[davidf]

If it's found that £3,000 of amplification is required to make the speakers sing then that tells me that the buyer does not know how good an amplifier can be bought for £10 to £500.

Well that depends on the speaker - I just used that figure as an example, I wasn't thinking of anything specific. There's not many amps under £500 I'd pay my own money to own (probably even less than the number of speakers I'd pay to own under £500), and certainly none I'd really recommend for demanding speakers.

Is this like buying a 6 berth caravan and being told that you need to buy a £50,000 brand new Audi Q7 to tow it? When a 12 year old £5000 Toyota Landcruiser would be fine.

Presumably the purchaser of the caravan will already have a suitable vehicle, whatever that may be, and whatever age that may be.

 

[Infiniteloop]

I'm not sure there is a right way to put together a system...and I'm not saying that anyone is dogmatically saying there is.

FWIW. My thoughts are as follows:

- If using a TT, then it soaks up a much higher percentage of the budget (back in the day, it was up to 50%)

- If you want Valves or Class A at the heart of the system, then you need to start with the Amp, and then get suitable speakers.

- I like to keep the balance of money spent on Amp and Speakers about the same, as good speakers need to be well driven and controlled. If push comes to shove, I'd rather have cheap Speakers driven by an expensive Amp, than vica versa (but there is wiggle room).

- The importance of the Source is often underestimated....which (imo) has to be comensurate with the rest of the system. In the digital age, you can get away with spending a lower percentage on it....but a poor Source will hold back a dcent system.

I'm with you on this one Cno.*i-m_so_happy*

 

[davidf]

You can chuck all the DSP equalisation you like at a speaker, but it won't overcome the sonic limitations of the drivers and cabinets when it comes to dynamics and clarity.

Whilst I appreciate DSP can improve some things (although not substandard equipment), I'm personally against drastically changing the output of a good quality speaker. If you need to change what the speaker is doing, it's the wrong speaker for you in the first place. It's why mastering studios use certain speakers in treated rooms rather than EQing their monitoring speakers.

 

[insider9]

I agree regarding dynamics but not regarding clarity. You said yourself how wrong positioning could impact on bass. This would hugely impact on bass clarity. Muddiness, boomyness these are all clarity related.

 

 

Simply - you cannot change all sonic aspects of the speaker. The only physical aspect that changes are the suspension drivers that get a tiny bit loose during run-in. You can only alter the room acoustics so that you get tonal boost or stage differences. You cannot make a speaker more detailed, clearer, faster, by positioning. The frequency will stay the same. You can boost or elongate bass response adding stands for example. Still, the technical aspects will be the same. The most critical point is the run-in period of the speaker that actually exists ! It contributes only just a bit but in some cases it will play significant role whereas in other cases almost none.  

No, sorry. Think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I never said all but many.

Anyway, say there is a speaker you've not heard. Place it in the room on purpose incorrectly. Have a listen. Now place it it's optimal position. It would appear more detailed, faster, clearer. The frequency response would be different very much so among many other metrics.

Is it still the same speaker? Yes.
Have you made any changes to it? No, so we agree on this one.
Would it change your perception to how it sounds and whether you like it? Yes, absolutely.
Are the technical aspects the same? Same speaker but big difference to the room. I'd say technical aspect have changed.

You cannot simply discard the room as it's a vital part of the speaker system.

In room frequency response will change (depending on room size and position of both speakers and listener) with as little as 10 cm movement in a small room. And the differences can be huge. But the frequency response is one of many measurements that will describe what's happening. And in isolation hardly tells you anything.

I'm happy for you to come and have a listen and we'll take in room measurements and I'll show you the differences using same speakers. In a small room like mine the differences are huge and small changes can make a big impact.

 

[tino]

... probably even less than the number of speakers I'd pay to own under £500

Off topic ... what do you think of the Elipson Planet Ms (<£500 a pair) that you sell? I like the look, but wonder if they would need the matching sub.

 

[CnoEvil]

I'm glad you wrote this because it poses and brings back one of my favourite paradoxical psychological questions. I always refer to my favourite example of a wine tester and a customer. The wine tester , tastes the wine. He is paid a huge amount of money for his occupation and sets up wine standards. He says that this particular bottle of wine is excellent and should cost 350 € a bottle. There comes over a customer, and says to him - sorry, I have bought my bottle of another wine for 12 €, have a try. Tester takes a sip and says it is terrible. The customer says I have tried your 350 € wine and I hate it. I love mine ! The question - who is right ?

I think that you are slightly misinterpreting what I'm saying...which is my fault for not explaning it properly.

This is not so much about subjective preference and more about my experience and a logical argument.

- Revealing speakers will show up any deficiencies in the system preceeding it. The expensive speakers that I heard, did sound rubbish on a cheap system, no question.....and with the harsh treble and uncontrolled bass that resulted in the mismatch, well driven cheaper speakers did a better job. There was very little subjective preference about it.

- A cheap speaker, will sound as good as it possibly can, on the end of an expensive system....and there are a couple of people on here doing just that.....with LS50s on the end of Devialets and MF M600. They were so surprised with the quality of sound they are getting, that they were in no hurry to change.

- Feeling shortchanged if you have a very expensive amp, because your speakers are holding it back, is an argument about system balance, which is valid, but doesn't invalidate what I'm saying

- Just ask PP how his system reacted to the insertion of a Leema Tucana, over the Pulse.

- Like I said, there is wiggle room, where you can spend a bit more on speakers...but go too far and things get worse. I have dealt with people on here that bought very expensive speakers and drove them with very average electronics and found them harsh and tiring (Supergalloot comes to mind). The answer was to go with a Source and Amp that were on the same level as the speakers.

 

[Native_bon]

I don't think anyone is wrong or right as per bad sounding room or bad sounding speakers. Some speakers may be much more picky when it comes to rooms & placement, while others may just not sound right no matter what position or room you place them in. Having said that, changing the amp of the bad sounding speaker may bring everything back into focus. Putting together a Hifi sytem in never straight forward. Most mass proudced speakers are way over priced anyway, with frenquency extremes boosted to attract attention. *dirol*

 

[lindsayt]

- Revealing speakers will show up any deficiencies in the system preceeding it. The expensive speakers that I heard, did sound rubbish on a cheap system, no question.....and with the harsh treble and uncontrolled bass that resulted in the mismatch, well driven cheaper speakers did a better job. There was very little subjective preference about it.

Another "it depends" in two different ways.

It depends what you mean by "revealing"?

It also depends which speakers you're talking about.

There are highly "revealing" - ie relatively transparent, clear, detailed, dynamic - speakers that are easy to drive that sound fine on the end of £100 amplifiers. For sure they sound a bit better with World Class amplifiers. But with the £100 amplifier they sound fine. Certainly not rubbish nor with a harsh treble or uncontrolled bass.

It's one of the choices to be made when going for the high end in audio. Revealing speakers that are hard to drive or revealing speakers that are easy to drive. There's no right or wrong path. It's down to personal preference.

 

[CnoEvil]

If I have made the the point that "It depends", then I (hopefully) have made the point that there is "101 ways to skin a cat".

My experience is mostly with modern speakers like Kef Refs, or highend Focal....you may be talking about very efficient, wardrobe sized dinasaurs from the past (nothing wrong with that)....but you are pretty unique on here, by going down that route.

I have always challanged tha notion that it should always be Speakers first and that you should spend a big portion of your budget on them. Most modern speakers are not that efficient (unless fairly large) and have low impedance.....and 99% of people buy modern speakers.....especially on here.

 

[stereoman]

I agree regarding dynamics but not regarding clarity. You said yourself how wrong positioning could impact on bass. This would hugely impact on bass clarity. Muddiness, boomyness these are all clarity related.

Simply - you cannot change all sonic aspects of the speaker. The only physical aspect that changes are the suspension drivers that get a tiny bit loose during run-in. You can only alter the room acoustics so that you get tonal boost or stage differences. You cannot make a speaker more detailed, clearer, faster, by positioning. The frequency will stay the same. You can boost or elongate bass response adding stands for example. Still, the technical aspects will be the same. The most critical point is the run-in period of the speaker that actually exists ! It contributes only just a bit but in some cases it will play significant role whereas in other cases almost none.

No, sorry. Think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I never said all but many.

Anyway, say there is a speaker you've not heard. Place it in the room on purpose incorrectly. Have a listen. Now place it it's optimal position. It would appear more detailed, faster, clearer. The frequency response would be different very much so among many other metrics.

Is it still the same speaker? Yes. Have you made any changes to it? No, so we agree on this one. Would it change your perception to how it sounds and whether you like it? Yes, absolutely. Are the technical aspects the same? Same speaker but big difference to the room. I'd say technical aspect have changed.

You cannot simply discard the room as it's a vital part of the speaker system.

In room frequency response will change (depending on room size and position of both speakers and listener) with as little as 10 cm movement in a small room. And the differences can be huge. But the frequency response is one of many measurements that will describe what's happening. And in isolation hardly tells you anything.

I'm happy for you to come and have a listen and we'll take in room measurements and I'll show you the differences using same speakers. In a small room like mine the differences are huge and small changes can make a big impact.

Sorry. Maybe I'm being too radical. Of course I cannot question these important issues too. You're all here probably much more experienced than me or if not possess at least great knowledge about this stuff. I definitely take your opinions always into consideration.

 

[stereoman]

I don't think anyone is wrong or right as per bad sounding room or bad sounding speakers. Some speakers may be much more picky when it comes to rooms & placement, while others may just not sound right no matter what position or room you place them in. Having said that, changing the amp of the bad sounding speaker may bring everything back into focus. Putting together a Hifi sytem in never straight forward. Most mass proudced speakers are way over priced anyway, with frenquency extremes boosted to attract attention. *dirol*

Yes, precisely.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

My feelings are buy the best pair of speakers you can afford and the fact you like the sound that they make and take into account your room size for what type of speakers you buy i.e. Stand mounted or floor standing speakers .

i also think amplification is very important it does matter no point in spending £150 on a amplifier just to drive £2000 set of speakers or spend as much on a secondhand amplifier that would come to the same value

Speaker placement is important but most of you are talking about stand mounted speakers were you have to toe them in .

with mine Dali's Dali says not to toe them in just have them firings straight a head which I do and apart from the distance from back wall and side walls that's all I have to do and the correct distance apart .

now with my speakers the ribbon tweeter and as I have a hybrid tweeter they are not at ear height so most of you with your stand mounted speakers would buy the stands so the treble tweeters are ear height like it tells you in your manual and you would have to toe them in .

so I agree it's important about speaker placement and what kind of speakers you buy for your room in the first place but also amplification is also very important too so is how your room sounds but none of us live in a recording studio unless your lucky and have lots of room just for a hifi to be in most of us have a basic living room where the rest of the family have to sit as well and meany wife's would not put up with acoustic panels every were just so you can be in hifi heaven it's a case of what you can get away with *dirol*

and finally how good the onboard dac on a cdplayer or what ever format you use plays apart too and then cables .

 

[lindsayt]

Cnoevil and Davidf, would an amplifer that delivers 120 watts into 8 ohms continuous and has a damping factor of 100 be OK for driving Kef Refs and upper end Focals?

I think it would. This makes a 24 kg, £500 Sony 870ES all the solid state amplifier anyone would ever need apart from very special cases like Apogee owners.

Diminishing returns cuts in big time with difficult to drive speakers at £500.

For easy to drive speakers, diminishing returns cut in at £10.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Noone is wrong or right
But all.make valid points

Ive also experienced expensive amps driving cheap 100 buck speakers very well.

Also expensive speakers with an efficient load will sound great with lessor amp.

2nd hand comes into play and turns the whole thing in its head.

And room effects speaker sound a lot.

So there i sit on the fence and watch

 

[CnoEvil]

Noone is wrong or right But all.make valid points

Ive also experienced expensive amps driving cheap 100 buck speakers very well.

Also expensive speakers with an efficient load will sound great with lessor amp.

2nd hand comes into play and turns the whole thing in its head.

And room effects speaker sound a lot.

So there i sit on the fence and watch

There's a job for you in the diplomatic service, my lad.*biggrin*

 

[CnoEvil]

Cnoevil and Davidf, would an amplifer that delivers 120 watts into 8 ohms continuous and has a damping

factor of 100 be OK for driving Kef Refs and upper end Focals?

I think it would. This makes a 24 kg, £500 Sony 870ES all the solid state amplifier anyone would ever need apart from very special cases like Apogee owners.

Diminishing returns cuts in big time with difficult to drive speakers at £500.

For easy to drive speakers, diminishing returns cut in at £10.

I have no idea how well it would sound....which is what I judge it on. I can only comment, with certainty, on what I've heard.

I'm driving my Refs with a 35W (8 Ohms) Class A amp....but it doubles its power at 4 Ohms and at 2 Ohms.....and it sounds wonderful.

This is the same amp that Neuphonix, Roby and Iceman all use (or have used)....and have found the same......so it is more than just absolute power....but you know this, as you enjoy SET amps (which is often an "Amp First" system).

 

[Andrewjvt]

Noone is wrong or right But all.make valid points

Ive also experienced expensive amps driving cheap 100 buck speakers very well.

Also expensive speakers with an efficient load will sound great with lessor amp.

2nd hand comes into play and turns the whole thing in its head.

And room effects speaker sound a lot.

So there i sit on the fence and watch

There's a job for you in the diplomatic service, my lad.*biggrin*

Thought id not have a strong opinion for once

 

[davidf]

Cnoevil and Davidf, would an amplifer that delivers 120 watts into 8 ohms continuous and has a damping factor of 100 be OK for driving Kef Refs and upper end Focals?

I don't know what it would sound like without hearing the combination.

 

[davidf]

... probably even less than the number of speakers I'd pay to own under £500

Off topic ... what do you think of the Elipson Planet Ms (<£500 a pair) that you sell? I like the look, but wonder if they would need the matching sub.

That would be for you to decide for yourself really - I don't know how much bass you prefer. There are plenty of speakers out there that I can listen to quite happily, despite lacking bass depth or sounding 'lean' - they can be hugely informative, allowing you to hear detail usually smothered by bass. Because some people are used to bass heavy or boomy speakers, they will find some of these speakers to sound lightweight.

It's just really down to how much importance you place on bass.

 

[stereoman]

...and coming back to the home acoustics issue - what about then all these Hi Fi Shows that take place generally in large hotels when the companies rent normal suites and from what I could see do not especially tamper with those rooms' acoustics ? And the stuff still sounds good right ? Good stuff will sound good...as said.

 

[nopiano]

...and coming back to the home acoustics issue - what about then all these Hi Fi Shows that take place generally in large hotels when the companies rent normal suites and from what I could see do not especially tamper with those rooms' acoustics ? And the stuff still sounds good right ? Good stuff will sound good...as said.

IME. Shows are notoriously difficult to get a good sound in.....which is why the bigger companies often go to great lengths to mitigate some of the problems....conditioners, acoustic panels etc. and setting up as early as possibly, to let the system warmed up and fine tune the set up.

Some of the worst sounds I've heard from very expensive systems were at shows.

Exactly my experience too. I've never heard better sound at a show than the same kit can deliver at home.

 

[davidf]

...and coming back to the home acoustics issue - what about then all these Hi Fi Shows that take place generally in large hotels when the companies rent normal suites and from what I could see do not especially tamper with those rooms' acoustics ? And the stuff still sounds good right ? Good stuff will sound good...as said.

More and more manufacturers and distributors are using room treatment nowadays at shows.