HiFi proof is in the pudding

[CnoEvil]

...and coming back to the home acoustics issue - what about then all these Hi Fi Shows that take place generally in large hotels when the companies rent normal suites and from what I could see do not especially tamper with those rooms' acoustics ? And the stuff still sounds good right ? Good stuff will sound good...as said.

IME. Shows are notoriously difficult to get a good sound in.....which is why the bigger companies often go to great lengths to mitigate some of the problems....conditioners, acoustic panels etc. and setting up as early as possibly, to let the system get warmed up and fine tune the set up.

Some of the worst sounds I've heard from very expensive systems were at shows.

 

[ellisdj]

More and more enthusiasts should be using room treatment full stop.

Find a way to get it in your room decor

 

[mond]

It doesn't really matter whether you spend more or your source, amp OR speakers....

as if you are reading these pages you will probably upgrade the "lesser" item first anyway...... probably within a year or so and probably via ebay...... or is that just me

 

[lindsayt]

...and coming back to the home acoustics issue - what about then all these Hi Fi Shows that take place generally in large hotels when the companies rent normal suites and from what I could see do not especially tamper with those rooms' acoustics ? And the stuff still sounds good right ? Good stuff will sound good...as said.

At shows some systems in some rooms sound great. In others you have to make allowances for the lack of furniture, the noise leakage from other rooms, the possibly poor state of the power supply in the hotel.

You get a higher proportion of great sounding systems at Scalford than you do at commercial shows.

For anyone wanting to put on a demo at a show that will impress most visitors there are two things that you must do:

1. Make the visitors like you on a personal level.

2. Play some mainstream music that's very well recorded that they haven't heard before.

It's these 2 factors that make me take show reports with a very large pinch of salt.

I also treat any impressions I get from listening to hi-fi at shows as highly provisional.

 

[insider9]

More and more enthusiasts should be using room treatment full stop.

Find a way to get it in your room decor

Absolutely! Next thing on my list.

It's the only hobby I can think of where the mentality has been so impacted by retailers and manufacturers that people will continue to swap boxes and won't even stop to question it. Many of us dismiss the impact the environment has on the end result which ultimately is our aim and where we get our enjoyment. It's much easier to say get better speakers, spend more money than consider where the main issues lie. And they're so often with the environment itself as it's not used to our advantage.

Could you imagine a car enthusiast dismissing the impact of environment in his hobby? For someone who says their car is overpowering not many people never mind enthusiast would say "Get a better car... this one doesn't stick to the road that well. I think it's too big for this road."

So why do people with bass issues are so often advised to get a new pair of speakers first? Why do people try to treat brightness of the system with cables or different electronics/speakers? These issues can be treated cheaply or free by positioning, room treatment and EQ. But that's not in the interest of people who make and sell the gear

 

[ellisdj]

Thats why I have been saying for so long - just plonking boxes down is not enough, you need to work on everything around the boxes with as much or more attention than the boxes themselves imo.

You understand it now because you have seen it with your own eyes now you are measuring the room etc chasing perfection in that regard I dare say.

However for me the interest in room treatment wasnt based on measurements at all - it was based on a listening session I had in a very treated room - with treatment dont expect big measurement changes but expect a big sound difference / improvement. Much more so than the measurements will show you - its very interesting like that I have found.

 

[CnoEvil]

Many of us dismiss the impact the environment has on the end result which ultimately is our aim and where we get our enjoyment.

I get my enjoyment by keeping on Mrs. Cno's good side....and turning our sitting room into a recording studio would be counter-productive. *biggrin*

Remember, you can be Right, or you can be Happy, but you can't be both. *wink*

 

[insider9]

Yes, you have and you've been a great inspiration so many thanks!

I agree when it comes to frequency plot it may not​ be that visible at least not across the whole spectrum. It is hugely visible on other graphs though

I've finally refurnished my listening room. Now I have more space and I can't believe the immediate difference to sound quality. I can't believe I waited for so long. I've been running my speakers without DSP since. This gives me more confidence to go further and i intend to try room treatment. As soon as I have some time to put some panels together. As previously it will be a DIY effort.

 

[insider9]

Many of us dismiss the impact the environment has on the end result which ultimately is our aim and where we get our enjoyment.

I get my enjoyment by keeping on Mrs. Cno's good side....and turning our sitting room into a recording studio would be counter-productive. *biggrin*

Remember, you can be Right, or you can be Happy, but you can't be both. *wink*

But I'm an idealist I want to be both

I appreciate it though it's not always easy. Sometimes it's the simple things. Acoustic panels can be pretty and look like a nice set of canvas. It doesn't have to be industrial looking. Sofas could work as bass traps etc.

As long as we have reasonable expectations of what can be achieved and are aware of limitations.

All I'm saying (general remark) don't go driving hundreds of miles around the country auditioning when all you may need is to move your speakers, listening position, or a rack or maybe some furniture. Possibly hang an acoustic panel or two. Most importantly these changes would be lasting should you decide to change speakers anyway and contribute in a long term.

 

[ellisdj]

A sofa wouldnt really work as a bass trap - especially not a leather one, or one made with a hollow shell.

Thats is why I said find a way to get it into the decor - if you have a dedicated room things become easier - however a combination room could still use them with a bit of thought etc to a design plan. The new GIK wood fronted panels look really nice, vicoustic wood panels do as well

This where I get hung up on the soft furnishings for room treatment mindset - if you actually tested to see just what it takes to make a tangible difference where it matters soft furnishings wont make any difference where it really matters.

If its working its only working in a very limited frequency range - the mindset is room treatments will "deaden the sound of the room".

If we think about that for a minute - actual broadband room treatments are "treating" a wide range of room frequencies - trying to create an even / balanced sounding room.

A "dead" sounding room is where the high frequencies are being absorbed more than the the rest of the frequecnies

A room with soft furnishings are very likely only working in a very limited range of frequencies probably high frequencies only

What is actually "deadening the sound of the room" out of these 2 approaches when you think of it like that?

I appreciate this is not what people want to hear but sadly it really is the case unfortunately imo.

 

[ellisdj]

to make it simpler I would make a basic plan on using treatments

1. all 4 main room corners - bass first - harder one for decor but tri traps from GIK do become semi invisible if you get the right colour and size

2. rear wall - especially if you sit near it

3. side walls - even just 1 panel each side.

if your worried about losing high freq use panels that combine diffusion / scattering with absorption - they also look really nice.

 

[insider9]

I'll probably start another thread for room acoustics not to further derail this one.

 

[ellisdj]

sorry it was mentioned right at the start by the op and it just seemed a very general thread - I get very passionaste about this topc cant help myself

 

[insider9]

I think it wasn't OP's intention though and more specific thread would be easier to navigate.

 

[stereoman]

sorry it was mentioned right at the start by the op and it just seemed a very general thread - I get very passionaste about this topc cant help myself

A word from me - I do not use a single item to support the room acoustics (because my room is not a recording studio unfortunately). I have one of the worst speaker positions against fenster (50 cm). No toe in. And......it sounds very good. So ?

 

[ellisdj]

sorry it was mentioned right at the start by the op and it just seemed a very general thread - I get very passionaste about this topc cant help myself

A word from me - I do not use a single item to support the room acoustics (because my room is not a recording studio unfortunately). I have one of the worst speaker positions against fenster (50 cm). No toe in. And......it sounds very good. So ?

Do you think it sounds the very best it could possibly be?

Sorry quick reference to the mention of a recording studio. The words are often bounded around I want the sound just as in the studio or as intended by the artists or what have you, yet I dont want to listen in room like a studio - can you see the irony of those 2 statements?

 

[insider9]

Stereoman if you're happy with what you have that's great and all that matters. There will always be a way to improve and as long as you're happy not a problem.

The minute there is dissatisfaction I would suggest looking at the very things I described from positioning to treatment and not discard EQ or DSP solutions. I don't advocate against new equipment but merely point out alternative and ways of getting more from existing one.

 

[stereoman]

I cannot of course say that I'm into a HiFi heaven while for the time being I use a budget Yammie AS 701 for now ( though the system sounds pretty good it is more unfortunately more due to amp's good phono stage ) but still as important as the acoustics is I've always been interested in engineering core much more than acoustics. That is why an amp upgrade to a new AS 1100 Yammie or brand new Cyrus will be much more profitable than any room acoustics treatment in this (my) case. Again, of course I understand how important acoustics treatment is. Of course it is. But I hope you get my point as well. I can hear the bad or good sound specifications no matter in what environment the system is.

 

[MajorFubar]

to make it simpler I would make a basic plan on using treatments

1. all 4 main room corners - bass first - harder one for decor but tri traps from GIK do become semi invisible if you get the right colour and size

First thing I'd do in that photo is lay a carpet! Or put sound-deadening on the ceiling. Either will serve to dampen the sound waves vertically. Laminate floors are a product of the devil when it comes to audio, yet more and more people are laying them in their listening space (fair enough mostly without the additional treatment shown here) and then wondering why the sound quality is cack.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

to make it simpler I would make a basic plan on using treatments

1. all 4 main room corners - bass first - harder one for decor but tri traps from GIK do become semi invisible if you get the right colour and size

First thing I'd do in that photo is lay a carpet! Or put sound-deadening on the ceiling. Either will serve to dampen the sound waves vertically. Laminate floors are a product of the devil when it comes to audio, yet more and more people are laying them in their listening space (fair enough mostly without the additional treatment shown here) and then wondering why the sound quality is cack.

yes i agree with that i have a rug in front of my speakers as we have a hard floor as the floor without a rug on it will act just like a window or mirror or class table .

 

[insider9]

I cannot of course say that I'm into a HiFi heaven while for the time being I use a budget Yammie AS 701 for now ( though the system sounds pretty good it is more unfortunately more due to amp's good phono stage ) but still as important as the acoustics is I've always been interested in engineering core much more than acoustics. That is why an amp upgrade to a new AS 1100 Yammie or brand new Cyrus will be much more profitable than any room acoustics treatment in this (my) case. Again, of course I understand how important acoustics treatment is. Of course it is. But I hope you get my point as well. I can hear the bad or good sound specifications no matter in what environment the system is. 

Yes, I get your point. Comparisons in the same room are valid I'm not disputing that. Also if you've already worked out your upgrade route that's fine.

What I'd say is perhaps try to see what you could achieve with positioning of even room treatment. It really is a fraction of the cost of a new amp and even if you still go ahead the worse case scenario is a you've a wasted some time. Best
a case a scenario a is you've improved your system.

 

[MajorFubar]

yes i agree with that i have a rug in front of my speakers as we have a hard floor as the floor without a rug on it will act just like a window or mirror or class table .

Rug certainly helps of course but will never be as good as just carpeting the room. Like everybody did, not too long ago. Give it a couple of decades and this ghastly fad of laminate floors will hopefully pass, and come to define early 21st century decore as lino and oil cloth did in the 40s and 50s. Clap your hands in a room floored with the stuff and it sounds like an echo chamber. Then they expect their HiFi to sound good.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

yes i agree with that i have a rug in front of my speakers as we have a hard floor as the floor without a rug on it will act just like a window or mirror or class table .

Rug certainly helps of course but will never be as good as just carpeting the room. Like everybody did, not too long ago. Give it a couple of decades and this ghastly fad of laminate floors will hopefully pass, and come to define early 21st century decore as lino and oil cloth did in the 40s and 50s. Clap your hands in a room floored with the stuff and it sounds like an echo chamber. Then they expect their HiFi to sound good.

we rent our house so unfortunately the wood floor was already there when we moved in I put a large rug down which covers most of it up anyway but not really a fan of wood flooring myself .

 

[MajorFubar]

we rent our house so unfortunately the wood floor was already there when we moved in I put a large rug down which covers most of it up anyway but not really a fan of wood flooring myself .

Fair shout, it wasn't of course intended specifically at you, there could be a thousand reasons why you personally have wooden floors, it being rented property where the landlord has dictated your floor covering is one of them! I was just being generalist.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

we rent our house so unfortunately the wood floor was already there when we moved in I put a large rug down which covers most of it up anyway but not really a fan of wood flooring myself .

Fair shout, it wasn't of course intended specifically at you, there could be a thousand reasons why you personally have wooden floors, it being rented property where the landlord has dictated your floor covering is one of them! I was just being generalist.

yes I no mate your ok *smile*