Hi-end Headphones: some questions

[Charlie Jefferson]

Domestic circumstances may force me into more headphone listening and put on hold purchasing a new amp or a pair of speakers. Both or maybe one of the latter have been mooted for awhile but on reflection a new pair of 'phones maybe the way to go right now.

There's no way I'm going to spend all of my amp &/or speaker budget (£2,500) but I would be prepared to go upto four figures. The two obvious models are the Sennheiser HD800's and the GradoGS1000's.

I haven't got a headphone amp, as yet, so would be plugging them straight into my Arcam A85/P90 combo. They would replace my current Sennheiser 650's. The sources for all my digital music run through a Chord DAC, and my vinyl playback is a Roksan Radius deck.

My questions are: until I get a headphone amp am I wasting my time with the aforementioned headphones? Whereabouts would a new headphone amp slot into my current set up for optimum results?

Thanks.

 

[PJPro]

Can't comment on four figure headphones unfortunately.

My Graham Slee Novo has pass through rca sockets. So, one could plug the DAC into the headphone amp and the headphone amp into the stereo. This configuration would mean, however, that you won't be able to hear your record playback through the headphone amp.

So, it looks as though a lineout on the Arcam is the only option which captures all. But I think the optimum result would be the former configuration (shorter signal path).

 

[Anonymous]

A headphone amp, and a good one at that, is a total must. There is no point spending a small fortune on revealing cans when they are being fed a poor signal. I never listen to my grados without my MF amp as the difference is do striking imo.

 

[idc]

Looking at the A85 manual on the Arcam site the MF X-CAN headphone amp would connect to any line in (except phono if you have the phono card for the turntable), or it can be looped through either Tape or VCR/Tape, though that would only be of use if you do record stuff and all other inputs are taken. Any other headphone amp should be the same.

If you are happy with the Sennheisers I would spend half you budget, or less and get a good headphone amp such as the X-CANV8P. I am sure that the headphones you suggest would be good, but so would very expensive speakers and there would always be the issue of you know you can get better sound with a better source.

What about dropping down to the Grado RS1 and then you have a chance of getting the X-CAN within your budget of £1K?

EDIT - I got distracted during writing this post, so Grimaldi beat me to it with the same recommendation! The V3 is also a very good amp, the V8P has additional features you are not going to need, such as it has a DAC and it can be used as a pre-amp to the A85 as a power amp. There is also a V8 without the P version, but like the V3 it is out of production. You could get one off e-bay and send it to Rock Grotto to have it modified for about £100.

 

[survivor]

I`d leave the headphones as they are for the moment and just buy a headphone amp. The new Graham Slee Solo SRG will set you back about £470. The Solo goes very well with the 650`s (I have one half of this combo at the moment and I`m hoping to get the other half soon though I have heard them together and was very impressed). Give the headphone amp a couple of hundred hours run-in and after that if you still feel you`d like even better quality headphones then you`ll have plenty of money left to upgrade. At the end of the day you`ll still have a significant percentage of your cash put aside for when you can go back to listening through speakers.

 

[Anonymous]

It definitely makes sense to see what a difference a good amp will make to your 650s. I think you may be surprised by the results saving yourself lots of £££s.

eBay is a good source - that's where I got my MF x-can v3. It's usually only £150 or so and made a huge difference to my enjoyment of the RS-1s.

 

[Anonymous]

If you want to do it properly, look at Stax electrostatics.

 

[Charlie Jefferson]

Thanks for the suggestions folks. Maybe a rethink is in order. I like the idea of a headphone amp first, as opposed to new 'phones. I must admit my Sennheiser 650's are okay, and listening to them last night was reasonably pleasurable.

Yet, I still find them limiting and a lesser listening experience. I suppose this is true of all headphone versus speaker comparisons. Just hope a new headphone amp will improve their performance.

My concern with the headphone amp is being able to get optimum playback for vinyl and digital music. PJ and IDC, you both mention differing configs, so I'd have to check out both of these possibilities. Thanks.

So which headphone amp? The Musical Fidelity V8 and various Graham Slee's get favourable mentions here and elsewhere, so I just need to source a good deal.

Thanks, and anymore radical ideas welcome.*

* Is the Japanese Stax stuff good then?

 

[idc]

Charlie, I find all the Sennheisers I have heard a bit flat compared to both the Grados I have heard and the AKG K702. A decent headphone amp should widen the sound stage. Instead of all the sound being in your head, there will be sound in the headphones themselves and even around your head with some exceptional tracks (Gomez, Whippin' Picadilly for example). Detail, separation between instruments and stereo effects will also be more noticeable. So the limitations you speak of will decrease. In the end though it is as you know a different listening experience to speakers. Hence I think Grado and MF will for you make a good combination. The AKG range tops out at £250 and you have more, which is why I have left them out. The K702s are cracking phones.

As for electrostatics, I have not heard any, but Antony Michaelson, owner of MF makes a great play of the V8Ps ability to drive them and claims most other amps cannot. You can find electrostatic headphones here; http://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/

As for how to connect the headphone amp to your Arcam, there are various methods and as you say check them out. The X-CANS will piggy back off the record phonos. Any source you use also sends a singnal to record, so you can record stuff. The headphone amp can use that signal as well. Reading the manuals seems to make it even more confusing than it really is. The Arcam A85 has numerous inuts/outputs to play with.

 

[Anonymous]

idc:As for electrostatics, I have not heard any, but Antony Michaelson, owner of MF makes a great play of the V8Ps ability to drive them and claims most other amps cannot. You can find electrostatic headphones here; http://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/

Little bit of confusion creeping in here I think. Electrostatics need their own energiser / amp....they dont work with ordinary headphone amps..........

 

[idc]

Ooops. Specifically it was the AKG K1000 that AM was referring to and now, having found the attached article I realised I picked him up incorrectly. Today has now become a good day as I have learned something new

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Charlie,
i have some experience in this area especially with your current cans. The hd650s are good cans and definately need a decent dedicated headphone amp to get the best out of them - like all decent headphones infact.
i used my hd650s with a creek obh21se amp and got great results at a very decent price - i used to have a Slee Solo v3 as well but i found the creek obh21se much better and cheaper!
mind you, in the end i sold the hd650s in favour of my cheaper grado sr125s which i felt sounded much more open - especially in the treble.
the obh21se also has input/output connections so you can plug your source straight in and then connect your arcam to it aswell.
if i were you, i would try your hd650s with a proper amp then if you were still unhappy with the sound i would try a pair of grados - the sr125s are cheapish but still produce wonderful music, the other pair i would recommend is the sr325i which are pricey but dont cost the earth like the gs1000s. goodluck!

 

[ElectroMan]

I agree wholeheartedly with raym8 - electrostatic headphones really do sound different and unbelievably transparent.

I had the entry level Stax units - only a 3 figure price! (regrettably sold them as wasn't doing a lot of listening at the time) and they blew me away!

 

[Stormboy]

Hi Charlie

I have the Stax signature system (SRS 4040 MkII). This system consists of electrostatic headphones and their own partnering headphone amp. The combination is outstanding, very open and fast and transparent. They are every bit as good as a reasonably priced amp and speaker system; if you don't mind the different sound staging that headphones give. You should be able to pick them up for about 1000 pounds.

Stormboy

 

[Charlie Jefferson]

Thanks everyone for a range of informative and interesting responses.

I've taken the plunge and ordered the Musical Fidelity X-Can V8, which I'll after collect after work later today. In my usual Luddite way, I'm fearing the worse when I attempt to connect it to my amp - as in, I'll get entangled in the doom and gloom that is the rear end of my system and I'll end up sticking the wrong outs into the wrong ins or some such fizzingly bad mistake.

Anyway, I'm going with the idea of keeping my Sennheisers (600's not 650's, you can see how infrequently I'd previously scrutinized or used them) and seeing how they sound with a dedicated head-amp.

Thanks, will report back accordingly.

 

[tiggs]

If you keeping the Sennheiser 600's it may be worth looking into the replacement cable options, as offered by Kimber Kable, Cardas, Moon Audio, and Stefan Audio Art and seeing if they make any difference, I believe Angelsound Audio sells the Stefan Audio Art cables, although I don't think Moon Audio have a UK distributor.

 

[idc]

Charlie Jefferson:........ I've taken the plunge and ordered the Musical Fidelity X-Can V8, which I'll after collect after work later today. In my usual Luddite way, I'm fearing the worse when I attempt to connect it to my amp - as in, I'll get entangled in the doom and gloom that is the rear end of my system and I'll end up sticking the wrong outs into the wrong ins or some such fizzingly bad mistake......

Excellent choice Charlie! Re connecting the X-CAN to your Arcam; two phono interconnects from 'line out' on the X-CAN to 'tape in' on the Arcam. That is the recommended way of integrating into an existing system.

 

[Anonymous]

Hello

I also believe you should keep the HD650's for now.

I own a pair of HD650's, and did initially use them without a Headphone Amplifier.

Just to throw something extra into the mix. As far as i can see, 'Lehmann Audio Headphone Amplifier's havent been suggested as yet.

'Lehmann Audio Headphone Amplifiers' have been very well reviewed by 'What Hi-Fi'.

I think their fantastic. I have been very critically listening to mine and im struggling to think of a single area of the sound that im not completely happy with. NEVER THOUGHT I WOULD SAY THAT!

Lehmann Audio Rhinelander --> http://whathifi.com/Review/Lehmann-Rhinelander/

Lehmann Audio Black Cube Linear --> http://whathifi.com/Review/Lehmann-Black-Cube-Linear/

I personally use the Lehmann Audio Black Cube Linear. The difference I have found using the HD650's with a dedicated Headphone Amp is absolutely HUGE!.

Although the 'Lehmann Audio Black Cube Linear' is one of the most expensive 'Headphone Amplifiers' reviewed on this site, it is possible to get them at lower prices, new.

I picked up my 'Lehmann Black Cube Linear' from Audio Affair for £539, the link to the website is below.

http://www.audioaffair.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=655

They gave me good service! as well as a great deal off of RRP. After much research i have found them to be the cheapest place to purchase Lehmann equipment from.

Before I think about upgrading to anything better than my Hd650's. Im planning to upgrade the cables, probably to cardas ones.

Regards

James

 

[Anonymous]

I've become a complete convert to headphone amps since buying my iBasso D10. I've got a set of PXC450s and they now sound alive and musical, compared to just ok. I bought them mainly for noise-cancelling on transatlantic flights and on the victoria line, which they are great at. I now use the link cable and lineout dock from my iPod when travelling by tube, well some of the time at least, as it is a bit weighty. (this week has been a shuffle and a pair of Se110s)

With the d10 the 450s are great to listen to in the office too.

wholeheartedly recommend buying a headphone amp if you are office bound

 

[Charlie Jefferson]

idc:
Charlie Jefferson:........ I've taken the plunge and ordered the Musical Fidelity X-Can V8, which I'll after collect after work later today. In my usual Luddite way, I'm fearing the worse when I attempt to connect it to my amp - as in, I'll get entangled in the doom and gloom that is the rear end of my system and I'll end up sticking the wrong outs into the wrong ins or some such fizzingly bad mistake......

Excellent choice Charlie! Re connecting the X-CAN to your Arcam; two phono interconnects from 'line out' on the X-CAN to 'tape in' on the Arcam. That is the recommended way of integrating into an existing system.

I picked up my new headphone amp yesterday and managed to connect it all with the minimum of kneeling and stretching. Thanks for the advice.

I let it run for a few hours whilst I got on with family life, then settled down for a listen later in the evening. First impressions are, well, mixed.

With 20,000 songs on tap via AE/DAC and with my iPhone as the remote I was a bit spoilt for choice as to what to listen to. The new Wilco album had just arrived yesterday but I needed more familiar music for this first listening session.

So I tried to give the new set-up a decent range of sonic flavours: Metallica, Kraftwerk, Plone, classical guitar & orchestra, Morrissey, Jewel, acoustic Neil Young, Beastie Boys, The Aliens, AC/DC . . .the list goes on.

I was initially disappointed by the closed in soundscape and the abrasive spew of metal (the music) in my ears but as I shifted across genres things became fuller and more listenable. The "I haven't heard or noticed that before" factor began to creep rather than force it's way into my aural experience, but only on the least guitar heavy stuff.

Now, I'm not always going to want Zep or The Raconteurs at full blast late at night but when I do I wish it didn't sound so cramped and forced. I suppose headphones struggle with that kind of rock as much, or maybe more so than speakers do.

Looking forward to more listening tonight.. I always find it hard with a new piece equipment to get back to enjoying music as opposed to calculating and calibrating the worth of the new product compared to what it's replaced.

So far, so so. With hints of improvement on previous set-up.

 

[idc]

Sorry to read your last post. I would expect though, that you will get improvements as the amp burns in and as you get used to headphone listening.

I find the V8P does need to warm up and sometimes that can take a few hours. Apparently the capacitors in particular do burn in and that can take a few weeks. I found this as well. I am burning in my AKGs at the same time, which can take a year!? So I am not sure of who far my improvement in sound over the past couple of months is amp and how much is headphones.

If are finding there is a lack of soundstage then I would look to the headphones as opposed to the amp. With my Grado SR80s the difference from X-CANS to V8P was most noticeable with the improvement in soundstage. So the amp provides loads of extra soundstage. The AKGs take that further again. But it will never be the same as listening to speakers.

 

[Charlie Jefferson]

I came home from work nice and early - the joys of nearly the end of term time - and decided to take advantage of having the house to myself for an hour or so. Thought I would give the headphone amp a test versus the direct A85 headphone socket. I'll cut to the quick to say, I can't, as yet, tell any appreciable differences.

Is it my ears, my hot & confused sense of aural dysphasia (made up term for my disappointment) or what?

Yes, at a pinch there's a bit more something with the X-Can V8, "warmth" perhaps. But certainly not a few hundred quids worth.

My test disc was the new Wilco album which I'm barely acquainted with - but I reasoned that was as good as any if I was simply swapping the headphone jack from ArcamA85 to MF.

Will things improve considerably with a bit of "burn-in" time for the the MF or is that more or less it?

More listening tonight and then over the weekend. Then I'll decide what's needed: return to vendor? New 'phones? Stick with the Senn600's & Arcam A85 socket.

A year ago my brother let me have his Kimber replacement cable to take the place of the 600's own wires - and at the time I wasn't overly impressed with the difference. Am I hard to please (ooo-er, missus etc!!!) or is it a case of diminishing returns?

 

[idc]

Damn. I feel guilty now. If you don't hear a great difference now I cannot see how, even with extensive running in that will changed significantly, especially after your comments about having a go with Kimber cables. I do believe that running in will change a kits sound, but not to the extent that something your were not wholly impressed with in the first place suddenly becomes worthwhile. I know there are those who will disagree with that, but is it worth the risk? This is what MF have to say about first impressions of the V8P

'Just a few listening notes on the V8P compared to the V2. Because the V8P has no effective voltage or current limit it will never clip into any headphone and always remain completely linier. This has a counter intuitive effect of possibly making it sound less "exciting" or "rhythmic". Its just that unlike any other headphone amp it doesn't limit. Most audiophiles are so used to the sudden peaks of distortion caused by limiting and clipping that they think that that is a hi-fi sound. Little could be further from the truth'.

Is that what you have found?

Maybe the Arcam has a very good headphone stage. I tried Sennheiser HD595 with a Yamaha A-S700 amp and was impressed. Not enough to ditch the X-CAN, but it still sounded fine. Can you trial another set of headphones, particularly the AKG K702s or the Grado SR325is? I still think that both open the music up more than the Sennheisers.

 

[Charlie Jefferson]

Thanks idc,

Please don't feel guilty!

I'm currently having a further comparative listening session, starting with Cat Power's The Greatest, and yes there are (subtle) improvements/differences with the MF. I just hope they reveal themselves to be worth the money. If not, my local friendly dealer will be happy to offer a refund or I'll just put the cash into a grander hi-fi project.

That's not for definite yet though, as I intend to give the new MF amp a while to "bed in", and my ears more chance to hear music through it.

Interesting MF quotation you posted above. Maybe that's me.

I'd love to trial some more headphones and get an idea of how the Sennheisers compare to Grados and others.

Thanks again, idc, your thoughts and comments are most welcome.

 

[idc]

Your welcome and please do post back with your final thoughts.