TrevC said:
After seeing this, I treat Chord as little better than con artists. http://www.chord.co.uk/blog/new-chord-ethernet-cables/. I am waiting for some idiot to come on the forum and defend them.
After seeing this, I treat Chord as little better than con artists. http://www.chord.co.uk/blog/new-chord-ethernet-cables/. I am waiting for some idiot to come on the forum and defend them.
TrevC said:
wait Chord say a cable cannot increase the dynamic range but a poor one can reduce it!
well surely if you swap from a poor cable to a quality one thats exactly what you do or get as close to the truth as you can with better cabling or am I missing some thing?
Your argument just got blown out of the water.
If that had read a poor cable is as good as a quality cable then you would have found something to justify your stance or am I reading this wrong?
and when did shielding have anything to do with anything in this thread?
Thompsonuxb said:
You said to google why cables affect dynamic range, so I did. Chord say they do and this is because of poor quality shielding (which is nonsense by the way). Surely you can see why shielding has something to do with this thread?
TrevC said:
Trevc - Me thinks you need to read & understand.
'This can be caused by ....'
He gives an example, he could have said '.... poor materials(copper/silver) used or poor termination, the point is poor quality cables can affect what you hear.
The source material has a fixed quality/range that can be affected by the cabling used in the transfer from source to amp and from amp to speaker. The point of hifi is to get as close to the original signal as possible which can be reduced/corrupted by cabling... seriously, whats the point you're trying to make.
if your argument is cabling/interconnects make no difference then a single 0.2mm strand of copper would make no difference to a larger gauge multi strand cable, they should sound the same. I don't get your argument.
Thompsonuxb said:
If you are talking about interconnects then yes, any old cable, or even any old conductor will do. It's an entirely non-critical application for a piece of wire.
http://consumerist.com/2008/03/03/do-coat-hangers-sound-as-good-monster-cables/
Covenanter
Well-known member
- Jul 20, 2012
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There are I think 4 logical possibilities:
A) Cables make no difference and the user can hear no difference
B) Cables make no difference but the user can hear a difference
C) Cables make a difference but the user can hear no difference
D) Cables make a difference and the user can hear a difference
As far as the user who hears no difference is concerned there is actually nothing to choose between A and C, just use any old cable. As far as the user who hears a difference is concerned there is nothing to choose between B and D, use the cable that sounds best to you.
As for the argument why not just agree to differ and live and let live?
Chris
A) Cables make no difference and the user can hear no difference
B) Cables make no difference but the user can hear a difference
C) Cables make a difference but the user can hear no difference
D) Cables make a difference and the user can hear a difference
As far as the user who hears no difference is concerned there is actually nothing to choose between A and C, just use any old cable. As far as the user who hears a difference is concerned there is nothing to choose between B and D, use the cable that sounds best to you.
As for the argument why not just agree to differ and live and let live?
Chris
benlaw
checked out your system - nice !
can i ask what cables you use ?
and why those particular models ?
thanks
checked out your system - nice !
can i ask what cables you use ?
and why those particular models ?
thanks
Thanks.
Sure, I use thick multi strand copper speaker cable (terminated and supplied by Musicraft) and generic pro xlr cables bought from eBay. In my AV setup I use the same speaker cable for fronts, a flat qed cable for the long runs to the rears and a variety of free / generic RCAs between my pre / pro and my power amp.
Sure, I use thick multi strand copper speaker cable (terminated and supplied by Musicraft) and generic pro xlr cables bought from eBay. In my AV setup I use the same speaker cable for fronts, a flat qed cable for the long runs to the rears and a variety of free / generic RCAs between my pre / pro and my power amp.
benlaw, thanks for detailing cables used.
can i ask why you chose these models ?
did you try others but were not impressed ?
can i ask why you chose these models ?
did you try others but were not impressed ?
Well, I am not going to defend that there are sonic differences in cables above a certain quality. But just for fun… You can read this engineering report. It analyses the differences between cables in relation to speakers and amplifiers—I mean, the report does not try to justify that differences exist; the author simply goes on to quantifying them. :O
I don't know the author, have not verified the reported measures myself, and the report does not seemed to be backed up by any university. It is also old, and current quality cables are likely very different to those subject of analysis—although we can find familiar names there.
I would also highlight that while the report presents measured differences, it does not go into detail about how audible these differences really are. But just for fan…
I don't know the author, have not verified the reported measures myself, and the report does not seemed to be backed up by any university. It is also old, and current quality cables are likely very different to those subject of analysis—although we can find familiar names there.
I would also highlight that while the report presents measured differences, it does not go into detail about how audible these differences really are. But just for fan…
I used some pretty expensive Ecosse speaker cable and XLRs, recommended by the dealer who sold me the primare kit. I also had a variety of c£50 RCAs. I read up more widely on the subject and decided to see if I could tell any difference between these premium cables and generic stuff. I couldn't. Whilst I obviously lost money on the cables I made quite a lot back when selling, especially WHF award winners with colourful sleeves like the chord crimson. Clearly a lot of people (as I did when buying them...) base their purchasing choice solely on subjective reviews.
benlaw thanks for reply. i value peoples opinions when they have actually tested the items discussed. i have found in my system that different cables make subtle differences and if those differences are deemed an improvement i then decide wether the difference is worth the extra cost. one thing i have found is that more expensive cables dont equal a better sound however but that applies to hardware aswell....it would be great if there was just 1 mains, interconnect, speaker cable and equipment support available. all you would have to do would be to select a source, amp and speakers......
TrevC, one thing puzzles me. Seeing that you're such a technical guru that knows better than audio professionals, music professionals, hi-fi manufacturers and hi-fi reviewers (at least in your own eyes) in numerous areas such as speakers, cables, footers, power supplies, etc, why are you still a nobody pontificating in a forum rather than the chief designer/owner of a company manufacturing the best measuring, best sounding, non-snake oiled, placebo-resistant hi-fi equipment in the world? :?
One thing that puzzles me about the proponents of cables is how they have the descriptive abilities that they do when applied to these products. The terms that are thrown around, often pure hyperbole, to my mind do nothing for the hobby.
These are the kinds of terms where if you didn't know any better you'd expect to be applied to core equipment or speaker positioning. Those areas where the major differences can be found.
The other fall back is "be glad your hearing isn't sensitive enough to detect a difference, you've saved some money". Thanks for worrying about my wallet, but what are we saying here? To my interpretation, this is again down to the descriptive abilities, or lack thereof, of the person who's got the latest audio cable wonder than any physiological difference that appears to be claimed. Human hearing parameters are well defined, we know the upper and lower thresholds of hearing capabilities so unless this particular group has an unbeknown gift (I doubt it), were down to claims and powers, or lack thereof, of the written language.
I've already covered the cables I have. The Atlas and Chord ones were both around £200 and are well made and nicely presented in their boxes, etc.
I also use some Fisual interconnects. These are also well made, look the part, were sourced from Amazon and cost about £10 delivered. If I swap these around, there is little difference. My system is pretty revealing, detailed and speaker position just right. I don't believe that I am not hearing things (to turn the argument around).
Music and movies sound as good with no loss of detail, presentation, and I guess what I interpret the terms used by others such as air and space (nothing to do with cables IMO) remain all present and correct.
My own experience, not just of these cables and this setup, has remained consistent throughout and it bears out that for me, the differences that do exist are minimal and the focus for good sound should be speaker positioning, great recordings where possible, and whatever electronics suit your needs. Most are built to perform well these days and connectivity, aesthetic appeal and functionality are the main drivers for most. With well matched gear, good sound quality is almost a given.
These are the kinds of terms where if you didn't know any better you'd expect to be applied to core equipment or speaker positioning. Those areas where the major differences can be found.
The other fall back is "be glad your hearing isn't sensitive enough to detect a difference, you've saved some money". Thanks for worrying about my wallet, but what are we saying here? To my interpretation, this is again down to the descriptive abilities, or lack thereof, of the person who's got the latest audio cable wonder than any physiological difference that appears to be claimed. Human hearing parameters are well defined, we know the upper and lower thresholds of hearing capabilities so unless this particular group has an unbeknown gift (I doubt it), were down to claims and powers, or lack thereof, of the written language.
I've already covered the cables I have. The Atlas and Chord ones were both around £200 and are well made and nicely presented in their boxes, etc.
I also use some Fisual interconnects. These are also well made, look the part, were sourced from Amazon and cost about £10 delivered. If I swap these around, there is little difference. My system is pretty revealing, detailed and speaker position just right. I don't believe that I am not hearing things (to turn the argument around).
Music and movies sound as good with no loss of detail, presentation, and I guess what I interpret the terms used by others such as air and space (nothing to do with cables IMO) remain all present and correct.
My own experience, not just of these cables and this setup, has remained consistent throughout and it bears out that for me, the differences that do exist are minimal and the focus for good sound should be speaker positioning, great recordings where possible, and whatever electronics suit your needs. Most are built to perform well these days and connectivity, aesthetic appeal and functionality are the main drivers for most. With well matched gear, good sound quality is almost a given.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s7w1Rp9AlQ
Something I came across that might interest. I won't pretend to know if this video is just of four ******** artists spewing garbage, but if they are, then they seem quite convincing in delivering the BS. As far as the moderator is concerned, I wouldn't defend any negative remarks against him.
Something I came across that might interest. I won't pretend to know if this video is just of four ******** artists spewing garbage, but if they are, then they seem quite convincing in delivering the BS. As far as the moderator is concerned, I wouldn't defend any negative remarks against him.
For years I bought HiFi magazines on and off and assumed everything they told me about cables was true - after all, they were the experts and I was paying for their advice, even though some of the claims did seem a bit outlandish I just assumed it was journalistic hyperbole. My epiphany came when I bought a 5* What HiFi recommended Chord HDMI cable and found no difference to the free cables I was using (I have a Kuro, so reckon I was giving it a fair chance) . I got friends and family to try as well and I could perceive nothing. I then did some reading and found that man who runs the company that certifies HDMI cables said that all certified cables were identical and found tests that showed that 100% of the data was transmitted across a range of cables from very cheap to ludicrously expensive. I also found that virtually all cables are produced cheaply in China (nothing wrong with that in itself) and that the cable companies rely on advertising and pretty casings to justify an incredible mark up.The more I read, the more I realised that there was no justification for expensive HDMI cables with normal cable lengths and yet reviewers would claim "deeper blacks" or "better motion", which was clearly nonsense.It became obvious to me that the reviews were completely untrustworthy. After that I looked more into analogue cables and although there are basic requirements ( speaker cables have to be reasonably thick), this too was an area full of nonsense and snake oil (this thread has been crying out for that).I have stopped buying HiFi magazines as I simply do not trust them. If you want to know about speaker cable from a man who designed them for a living try www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
Just as a point of order, Roger Russell was an engineer with McIntosh some years ago. Not sure if he is into cable design in as much as he will happily point out that basic cable is often good enough. Plenty of that going around!
the record spot said:
Sorry, I was not clear on that point. I meant he designed speakers for a living not cables.
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