Help needed in choosing between two setups - B&W + Dali

[msdhoni112]

Hi All,

After some frantic weeks reading and listening to demos, I have narrowed my search down to two packages

1) B&W CM8 Floortstanders, B&W CM1 Rears and CM centre. I will most likely take the B&W PV1D Subwoofer.

2) Dali Ikon 6 5.1 Package (MK2) -> http://www.whathifi.com/Review/DALI-Ikon-6-51-package/

I have already selected the Amp which is the Onkyo 818 ...

I just can't decide between the two and would like some insight.

Thanks,

MSDHONI112

 

[Oldboy]

To be completely honest I think the amp you have selected is far from ideal to run either of those speaker packages and I would be looking at a Pioneer SCLX86 as a bare minimum but more suitable would be a Yamaha RX-A3020 or similar. The Onkyo 818 is ok but it won't be getting the most from either of the speaker packages you have selected, I firmly beleive that if you are going to spend that sort of money on either of those packages then they deserve appropriate amplification to go with them.

What I would say when it comes to the speakers is that either represents a cracking set up and really it comes down to personal taste and preference, your ears are the best judge here but my preference would be the Dali Ikon 6 just because I know how good my Zensor 5 set up sounds but your tastes could vary widly when compared to mine. I would be very jealous of either set up though

 

[DandyCobalt]

I can strongly recommend the B&W package ( I have the same myself). For amplification, I started with a Pioneer LX53 (about £1,000 at the time), but moved up to the 85.

I agree with Oldboy - the Cm8s really need power to get them sounding at their best. I even have a pair of Cyrus mono X-300s firing the front pair.

I haven't heard the Dali Ikons. The power/capabilities of your chosen amp could point you in one direction or the other.

 

[msdhoni112]

Hi both, thank you for taking the time to reply to me.

I had rang Carl @ Exceptional-AV who had told me the Onkyo would be perfect for the Dali's ;(

I am really confused now, as I am back to square one on the Amplifier and would need another £1000 to cover the cost of the Yamaha !

But thanks anyway, the worst thing I could have done is buy the wrong gear ....

 

[Oldboy]

Hi both, thank you for taking the time to reply to me.

I had rang Carl @ Exceptional-AV who had told me the Onkyo would be perfect for the Dali's ;(

I am really confused now, as I am back to square one on the Amplifier and would need another £1000 to cover the cost of the Yamaha !

But thanks anyway, the worst thing I could have done is buy the wrong gear ....

It's very easy to get confused when buying new kit and you are not alone with that feeling, we have all been there trust me.

What should be said is that to some extent the Onkyo 818 will be fine with either package BUT it's an outgoing model for starters which explains both it's price and the retailers enthusiasm to sell it to you as they will want to clear their stock before the new models arrive. I firmly beleive the 818 simply isn't going to get the most from either speaker package and that you would end up replacing it pretty quickly so why not get it right first time and buy a receiver of the calibre good enough to do those speakers justice.

There are other options here though so why not look at either the Yamaha RX-A1020 or Pioneers SCLX56...in a recent WHF supertest at this (£1000) price point the Yamaha came out on top but the Pioneer shouldn't be dismissed as it was a WHF award winner in 2012.

The Pioneer can be found for £800 widely and the Yamaha is more expensive at £900-1000 but if you could stretch the budget a little further then you can get a Pioneer SCLX76 for £999 or a SCLX86 for £1400, going down the Yamaha route a RX-A2020 (which I recently bought) can be found for about £1000-1300 or the 3020 can be found for £1999 or there abouts.

The other thing to mention is that manufacturers are now releasing the 2013 receiver models so new Pioneer models should appear soon although the Yamahas are 2013 models and new models from Denon, Sony and Onkyo are also starting to arrive so perhaps a little patience may be in order so you can make a more informed decision once all the major players have their 2013 receivers on sale.

What I would say is that the more money you could allocate for amplification the better and that either speaker package really should be partnered with a receiver higher up the price point to truly do the speakers justice. What is your budget for a receiver?

 

[msdhoni112]

Your advice is priceless ... I been thinking a little about my choices, and I think first and foremost I need to get the Yamaha 3020 as I don't want to change in the next 10 years.

Do you think that this package is good (price and speakers ... with the DALIs)

http://www.audioaffair.co.uk/Yamaha-RX-A3020-+-Dali-Zensor-7-5.1-Package/product_5933

I am sorry I haven't replied to all of your email; thank you for your time responding. You have helped a lot though trust me

 

[Oldboy]

You are welcome, just happy to help.

Now to that deal...I can vouch for the quality of the speaker package as I have the same speakers but with the Zensor 5 fronts instead of the 7's although the sub looks different to mine from the picture. The Zensor 5 package which I own is a current WHF award winner in it's price range so I can't see the 7 system being any different as they share many speakers so it would seem a good choice.

Now there are a few things I should make you aware of...Audio Affair have had many complaints levelled against them on these very forums and indeed I have been on the receiving end of their poor customer service myself and waited a good 3 weeks or so just for a cable but others have had far worse experiences. Now I'm not saying they can't be trusted but it does seem as though they are a small retailer that holds only minimal stock meaning that most orders are actually ordered in from the respective distributer or manufacturer which is why there are so many delays and complaints with this company so it would be worth contacting them before you buy to get an idea if they actually hold this package in stock.

If it were me I would use that deal to go shopping elsewhere and get other more reliable dealers to price match it, Richer Sounds for example will even beat that price by £20-50 (I can't remember which) if they have both products in stock. I'm not sure Richers stock the Yamaha 20 range of receivers though but there are plenty of other retailers out there that will want your business and would match or even beat that deal so I would definately shop around .

The second thing to note is the sheer size of the 3020 and 2020 receivers.....as I can vouch for these are huge bits of kit, not in height so much but in depth and stretch back like a boat so make sure you have the room to accomodate one on your rack or stand before you buy as even on my Atacama AV rack it was a very tight squeeze to get the 2020 in. You have been warned lol.

If you are not prepared to wait for the new receivers to arrive then I don't think you can go wrong with the 3020 and it shouldn't need replacing for some considerable time, I can tell you for a fact that the Yamaha will be a lovely match for the Dali speakers as since I got my 2020 my Dali Zensor 5 system finally feels like it's firing on all cylinders and produces a truly cinematic sound. I was so happy I added another pair of Zensor 1's as front height speakers which is high praise indeed.

I hope that's been of some use to you and keep us posted with how you are getting on, any questions don't hesitate to ask as there are plenty of like minded people on here to help if I can't.

 

[msdhoni112]

Perfect, well I am certainly increasing my knowledge in this area now. One thing I don't like is the amount of contrasting information available on the internet.

My friend bought the Dali Zensor 5's + Yamaha 673 and I must say I was very impressed so I can imagine that your system is all that better with the amazing AMP. I just had a quick look and I found this package for a great price http://www.exceptional-av.co.uk/product.php?fdProductId=1229

I was banking on AudioAffair as I wanted to buy a kit that was pretty expensive and saw that they did 24 months interest free, but having had a quick look at the forum it seems I should stay away. It's not like I can't afford the kit outright, but it was a nice option to pay monthly and free up some cash for a nice holiday haha.

Another thing is I am currently living in Belgium so I have a time constraint when I come back to visit. I am back this weekend and was really hoping to pick something up by then, but I guess I need to learn some patience. Do you think there will be a vast difference with the new receivers ?!?!

Last thing buddy, I was interested in this originally, I really really wanted it ...

http://www.exceptional-av.co.uk/product.php?fdProductId=1146

 

[Oldboy]

Knowledge is king when it comes to home cinema kit that's for sure.

I'm afraid the nature of the internet is such that conflicting information is to be expected i'm afraid, you just have to filter out the rubbish and stick to trusted sites and opinions of those with knowledge of AV kit. That can be difficult at the best of times and you never stop learning but it can feel like you are drowning at times, touch wood i've not made any real mistakes for quite some years now so I can tell you for a fact that you can never do too much research and never just dive in without doing your research first, you have to remember that salesmen are just that no matter how friendly and knowledable they may seem and that a demo is essential before you buy.

Right back to the packages...I can vouch for Exceptional as I've bought from them before and had a smooth transaction with good service and quick delivery so you are in safe hands with them. The deal with the Zensor 5's and 1020 receiver would be my choice out of the two you linked to simply because of that Onkyo 818 amp that is bundled with the Ikons, if you could get a deal on the 1020 with the Ikons then it would be a tough choice...you have to remember that the Ikons need ALOT of room to breathe and need a big room to get the most from them. For most normal rooms I would say the Zensors would fill it easily but if you have the room then the Ikons make a convincing argument for themselves, it comes down to how big your room is??

Don't forget Exceptional do 6 monthly payments for most packages so you could still have a holiday and I'm sure if you spoke to them today or tomorrow you could have something ready to pick up when you are back this weekend so I would advise giving them a call to discuss a price for the Ikons and a 1020 receiver if you have the space along with stock levels of the Zensor 5 package too. If you want to dive in now then that is my advice but it is just my opinion don't forget, either way a call to discuss it won't cost much and may make your mind up.

As for this years receivers I very much doubt that there will be any revolution, it's going to be more a case of evolution. Yamaha have concentrated on audio performance on their Aventage receivers along with a powerful video processor chip (the IDT HQV Vida chip inside the 2020 and 3020 is the most powerful video processor chip available on the consumer market today) where as other manufacturers will add extra network fearures, bluetooth, built in wi-fi, on demand services such as Spotify etc.

I seriously doubt that if you bought a Yamaha receiver that you would feel short changed later in the year...there is one golden rule when buying AV kit...you buy the best kit you can at your price point at the time you buy and that has served me well. You have to accept that the next best product is always around the corner and if you wait you may never buy anything as AV kit is always evolving and getting better or adding features, just try to future proof youself now as much as possible. Even speakers get better over time so all you can do is buy the best you can when you decide to buy.

Hope that didn't go on too long but keep us updated with how you are thinking and if you have made a decision.

One other thing...what is the electrical supply in Belgium? If you are planning on using any of the kit there you may need to check the voltage for both products to make sure you can use it there but i'm sure you've already thought of that....thought it was worth mentioning just in case

 

[msdhoni112]

Hi Oldboy,

Wow thank you for that amazing information and again thanks for your time. There is no risk of electrical differences between UK and Belgium - just the plugs are different but I have installed UK plug sockets all around the flat here haha.

but I have an update. I bought the following speakers ->

B&W CM8 Floorstanders

B&W CM1 Standmounts

B&W CM Centre

They are second hand but in absolutely pristine condition.

I will be buying either the B&W ASW 10CM or B&W PSV1 subwoofer this weekend so I really need an AMP

I will take either the Pioneer SCLX86 (£1300), Arcam AVR360 (£749 half price), Yamaha A3010/A3020 (found 3010 for £900 new) so I am asking once more for your opinion on the Amplifier out of those 3

Thanks again buddy !

 

[Oldboy]

Great news regarding the speakers :rockout: were they a bargain?

If you can afford it get the PV1 sub to go with the speakers as it's by far the better sub to go with them, I've heard one and that side firing arrangement along with the amp inside it make for a formidable, deep and agile sub which would be a perfect match for the speakers.

I can only comment on the Pioneer and Yamaha amps as I've never heard the Arcam. It's really difficult to choose out of the three...if it was me I guess I would go for the 3020 simply because the other two represent last years models, Pioneer have now announced the 57, 77 and 87 models that replace last years models and more info is on this very site.

That said, the price for the 86 is good but with the new range being announced I would expect that price to fall even further now and the price for the 3010 is also tempting as that represents half price. I would aim for the 3020 but if funds don't allow it or you simply don't want to spend £2000 then choosing between the 86 and 3010 is really difficult but imo the Pioneer SCLX86 would just nudge it BUT be careful with this bad boy as it does have an edge of brightness to it that doesn't suit some kit so it would be a case of if it would partner well with your B&W speakers?

System matching is very difficult and ordinarily I would advise careful demos to make sure the kit is suitable but you are in a very different situation which doesn't really allow that so perhaps start another thread about partnering the B&Ws with either of those amps to get a better consencous of opinion...even as I'm writing this i'm changing my mind! I'm wondering if either Yamaha would be a better match for those speakers, I did listen to them some time ago but can't remember what amp was hooked up to them...I think you are better off getting advice from those better qualified than myself really.

Hopefully someone with a similar set up will be better placed to advise you.

 

[msdhoni112]

Hi Oldboy, as promised I would let you know when I bought all my gear !!

1) As I already mentioned I bought the B&W CM8 with CM1 rears and CM centre. This was a steal @ £1350 but I had a long trip from Brussels - Newquay to pick these up. Well worth it, as the new price is £2197 !

2) B&W PV1-D sub

3) Denon AVR-X3000 amp

4) Bi-wire cables for the fronts, sub cable, rear cables, all QED silver anniversary ! I actually got the cables for free as I bought 2+3 together from Sevenoaks ;-)

I was about to splash the cash for the Pioneer-LX86 but the installation (not sales) guy at Sevenoakes, highly recommended this brand new amp. I really hope I made the right choice with the Amp !! Have you read anything about it ??

Cheers for all your advice.

 

[Oldboy]

Nicely done!

You got the right sub for sure and those speakers were a steal for that money.

The amp I know very little about and there is a complete lack of reviews out there for it, on paper it looks good but I still would have gone for something more suited to £2200 worth of speakers although I can understand your reluctance to part with that sort of cash and to listen to personal opinions of forum members. Did you audition any receivers whilst you were there or did you just buy blind??

All that matters in the end is that you are happy with your purchases and the cable deal was a great one, as long as you are happy who cares eh and I just hope you get the chance to enjoy it to the full in the coming weeks.

 

[kj2]

Hi Oldboy, as promised I would let you know when I bought all my gear !!

1) As I already mentioned I bought the B&W CM8 with CM1 rears and CM centre. This was a steal @ £1350 but I had a long trip from Brussels - Newquay to pick these up. Well worth it, as the new price is £2197 !

2) B&W PV1-D sub

3) Denon AVR-X3000 amp

4) Bi-wire cables for the fronts, sub cable, rear cables, all QED silver anniversary ! I actually got the cables for free as I bought 2+3 together from Sevenoaks ;-)

Hi There!

im am interested in the very same set up almost.

firstly how are you finding the amp with the cm8's? im especialy interested from a stereo point of view, does it provide the power neccessary?

secondly, where exactly did you purhase the speaker package. i would be definitely drive over to brussels to pick this kit up! did you have to pay any duty?

any help would be great!

thanks!

 

[msdhoni112]

Hi Oldboy, sorry for the very late response.

I had checked this, the Pioneer and a Yamaha 1020. I really preferred this, especially when it came to audio surprisingly.

As I have the fronts bi-amped, the AMP definately delivers enough power. I am really impressed with the setup and I am sure that I will receive many, many complaints from the neighbours

The subwoofer is really next generation. It is aesthetically pleasing too !

Thanks for all your help though. I can always upgrade my amp in the future that is no big deal. My outlay was more than double what I wanted to spend (Yamaha 673 + Dali 5s original budget) !!

THanks again

 

[msdhoni112]

HI KJ2,

I can 100% recommend this previously untried combination as long as you bi-amp the CM8s.

Although I live in Brussels, I bought the speakers down in Cornwall from eBay. I got a bargain although it was a very long day to go pick them up from over here.

Speakers / AMPs and in general electronics are more expensive over here .... there is no duty to pay as we have literally the same VAT amounts

Have a look on eBay for these speakers (good luck nobody wants to sell)

 

[kj2]

Thanks for your reply!

im glad youve come back and recomended this, i did go and buy the denon amp and am about to get the speakers.

will alos go for the cm centre amnd asw10 sub, thinking of saving a few quid and going for the MT-1 surrounds. i know you hvae gone for the CM-1's, would you say its worth spending the extra for these?

seems you got an awesome deal on ebay, well worth the travel over to newquay!

enjoy your set up, looking forward to getting mine together.

by the way, which speaker cable are you using?

 

[kj2]

by the way, which speaker cable are you using?

just read your post and noticed you mention the cables already!

 

[kj2]

HI KJ2,

I can 100% recommend this previously untried combination as long as you bi-amp the CM8s.

...so what is your other amp btw? i cannot find it mentioned in the thread, thanks

 

[kj2]

MSDHONI -

ok, so im thinking of keeping with denon

will the PMA720AE do it or should i really be going for the PMA1510AE?

 

[msdhoni112]

Hi Again ! Sorry for the late reply ... better late than never.

I got the CM1s, but as they are only used as the rear speakers you may get away with using the MT1's.

Even though the ASW10 subwoofer is near identical to the performance of the PV1D - the aesthetics on the PV1D are amazing and really worth the money. Just remember you get a 5 year warranty with all B&Ws too, so this subwoofer is for a long time ;-)

As for the AMP, I bought the Denon AVR-X3000 as I needed an AV AMP. I am not 100% sure with the AMP you have mentioned as that is dedicated. I would give Sevenoaks in Watford a call to ask about that.

BTW - when I mention BI-AMP, that means I am using the 2 channels for the second surround (it is 7.2 amp remember) to power the fronts also ..

 

[kj2]

ive gone for the avr 3313, the later to your amp, its bi-amp-able (!) so after your advice was looking at a good power amp, perhaps a creek evolution, or a denon 1510.

so was thinking of doing that for the front two with a cross over, though after reading the following is sounds complicated and possibly not worth it!

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/biamping.html

so ill have the av amp avr-3313, cm8's for fronts, possibly one of the 2 subs as per discussion with maybe mt1's for surround and then cm1's for zone 2.

love my music, and to be honest tis is primarily what i want the set up for, so looking for the best i can get for musical quality!

any advice welcome, would be intersting to hear you whole set up!

thanks again