Great cable for Q acoustics concept 20?

[TrevC]

I demand this thread to be locked for violations of freedom of expression!

I demand that Vladimir does not get his wish!

 

[ellisdj]

Ellisjd,

I dont know your area of expertise, but lets say you had knowledge about aeronautics, and you participated in a forum where enthusiasts discussed their experience flying model planes, and a number of posters were discussing painting their planes blue because it made them fly better.

You could either ignore the thread, or point out the colour of the wings really made no difference. Ignoring the thread meant that other posters would be misinformed if they read the post for advice, commenting would potentially upset the cosy 'blue is best' circle.

Not a clear cut decision.

While it is never clear on a forum like this, I and a few others have real experience in this field, some who have actually designed and tested equipment for a living. Others are 'armchair' experts who clearly don't have any technical expertise. I try to be polite and respectful in my posts, but I do think it is appropriate to point out the absurdities in some of the posts on here or these things become self perpetuating. The 'silver is brighter' and 'use jumper cables instead of shorting plates' are two cases in point, where in spite of the best attempts of those who know what they are talking about to point out that these claims are daft, thread after thread continues to give this as advice to unsuspecting newbies.

Posted once then that is understandable - this thread asked for advice, but instead its 4 pages of mostly sarcastic comments - its even sarcastic comments in the thread I just started as well - its used as an excuse to show of sarcasm skills which benefits noone.

Instead there would be 4 pages of recommendations for the op to go an try for himself - from arm chair experts or not, right or wrong in their judgement. You dont have to be an expert to advise something to try

It matters only to him if buying a different cable makes it sound better to him it doesnt matter to anyone else.

But its not 4 pages of recommendations its mostly 4 pages of sarcastic comments for umpteeenth time. It just ruining the forum and pushing people elsewhere. Its about time it stopped because its only fun for the people writing the sarcastic comments in some weird way again and again - its like naughty kids at school behaviour ruining it for everyone else - that is how it is perceived not ever as constructive

If a recommendation is nonsense, as many on here are, the person that made must be called on it.. I always try to be as factually accurate as possible.

Its only nonsense to you - not them, you might never agree but that doesnt make them wrong

I would never dispute something like the differences between the sound of speakers because that is entirely subjective and the differences are so large they cannot be denied, but arrant nonsense about the sound of, say, expensive mains wires I will dispute because they are simply not possible.

http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm

Your in the wrong thread Trev C - there is a dediated thread for this now

 

[TrevC]

Ellisjd,

I dont know your area of expertise, but lets say you had knowledge about aeronautics, and you participated in a forum where enthusiasts discussed their experience flying model planes, and a number of posters were discussing painting their planes blue because it made them fly better.

You could either ignore the thread, or point out the colour of the wings really made no difference. Ignoring the thread meant that other posters would be misinformed if they read the post for advice, commenting would potentially upset the cosy 'blue is best' circle.

Not a clear cut decision.

While it is never clear on a forum like this, I and a few others have real experience in this field, some who have actually designed and tested equipment for a living. Others are 'armchair' experts who clearly don't have any technical expertise. I try to be polite and respectful in my posts, but I do think it is appropriate to point out the absurdities in some of the posts on here or these things become self perpetuating. The 'silver is brighter' and 'use jumper cables instead of shorting plates' are two cases in point, where in spite of the best attempts of those who know what they are talking about to point out that these claims are daft, thread after thread continues to give this as advice to unsuspecting newbies.

Posted once then that is understandable - this thread asked for advice, but instead its 4 pages of mostly sarcastic comments - its even sarcastic comments in the thread I just started as well - its used as an excuse to show of sarcasm skills which benefits noone.

Instead there would be 4 pages of recommendations for the op to go an try for himself - from arm chair experts or not, right or wrong in their judgement. You dont have to be an expert to advise something to try

It matters only to him if buying a different cable makes it sound better to him it doesnt matter to anyone else.

But its not 4 pages of recommendations its mostly 4 pages of sarcastic comments for umpteeenth time. It just ruining the forum and pushing people elsewhere. Its about time it stopped because its only fun for the people writing the sarcastic comments in some weird way again and again - its like naughty kids at school behaviour ruining it for everyone else - that is how it is perceived not ever as constructive

If a recommendation is nonsense, as many on here are, the person that made must be called on it.. I always try to be as factually accurate as possible.

Its only nonsense to you - not them, you might never agree but that doesnt make them wrong

I would never dispute something like the differences between the sound of speakers because that is entirely subjective and the differences are so large they cannot be denied, but arrant nonsense about the sound of, say, expensive mains wires I will dispute because they are simply not possible.

http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm

Your in the wrong thread Trev C - there is a dediated thread for this now

Stop trolling.

 

[dim_span]

so .... (for those that want nothing but the 'best') *mail1*

you have expensive speakers, and have invested in expensive cables ...

what about the speaker's binding posts?

http://www.audiodesign.co.uk/styled-26/styled-21/index.html

snip:

Most people would answer this with the statement “They’re gold platted”, and of course you may well be correct, however the biggest factor effecting the sound of these is not what they’re covered in, it’s what is being covered in the first place!Virtually all binding posts on your speakers or your amplifier will be a combination most likely based around Brass. Sadly, Brass is a diabolical audio component. Covering it with gold, or indeed some other exotic metal, may well stop it tarnishing, but it does little to mask the brittle, glaringly hard and poorly detailed sound. What’s that we hear you say “my system sound great!”. Well that may well be the case, but the point we’re making is, if it sounds great now, your going to be stunned into silence when you hear how good it could be.The irony is of course that manufacturers spend massive amounts of time and money to produce what they feel to be the best amplifier they can make, speaker manufacturers just the same. Also, we’re all well aware of the huge improvements that quality cable can make. And yet, for the most part, all of this effort is thrown to the dogs by just this one item in the signal chain. Your binding posts.

Some time ago, we realised that the binding posts were dramatically effecting the sound of our amplifiers, so, we set about trying to find something that would do the job much much better. It turned out to be no mean feet. One of the very very best transmitters for an audio signal is copper. Not the cheap Copper/Nickel that most companies use but pure solid oxygen free Copper. Milled from a solid bar.

Are you being serious? It's hard to tell, but the binding posts are not a problem as long as they are well made, gripping the wire tightly to make a good contact.

The guy who makes the copper binding posts has loads of respect in the hifi industry .... I have 3 of his components in my hifi system (amp/CDP and Tuner)

suppose that if you have expensive speakers and amp etc and can hear differences in speaker cables and interconnects, the copper binding posts at £200 per pair may be worth looking at ?

some guys spend the same amount of money on speakers as what they spend on cables (from what I have read on this thread).... so these could be a bargain

Some of you lot are bonkers. I read your other post asking about £250 speakers because your old 35w was not upto driving your old B&W ones. Did you spend all your money on cables and binding posts? I don't spend any money on speaker cables.

Nah ... I'm always skint so buy the bestest that is the cheapest ....

My amp is a Tom Evans tweaked Pioneer Precision, My CDP is a Pioneer Tom Evans tweaked Precision, and my tuner is Tom Evans tweaked Precision...

My current speakers are B&W DM2 transmission speakers (paid under £100 for these) .... they need 100 watts @ 8 Ohm (min) to 'sing properly' .... they worked well with my old Pioneer SA-9800 ...So I am looking for alternative speakers

Cables are cheap (Hitachi and Silver High Breed) ....

it all depends where you sit on the ladder when it comes to buying HIFI equipment .... some guys have lots of money and want the best .... they are classed as 'audiophiles' ... watch the video below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs1aUws0Lrs

some guys (like me) want reasonable for cheap

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Do show me Tom Evans credentials - his wesite is a joke. His products?? (He bakes cakes I think)

 

[dim_span]

Do show me Tom Evans credentials - his wesite is a joke. His products?? (He bakes cakes I think)

Hmmmm .... *shok*

 

[Vladimir]

Tom Evans is a Grand Master of the Druid Order of Tweakers. LessLoss have much nice website, which I presume makes them very credible audio engineering company? Their BlackBody even won an award from a magazine!

 

[ellisdj]

there is some very interesting stuff on the lessloss website - so dont do it too much injustice

 

[dim_span]

Tom Evans is a Grand Master of the Druid Order of Tweakers. LessLoss have much nice website, which I presume makes them very credible audio engineering company? Their BlackBody even won an award from a magazine!

I still have a Tom Evans Eikos cdp on my wishlist .... There was one a few months ago on ebay but I could not afford it

many have said that it's better than a Linn Sondek CD12 .... The Eikos is a Pioneer PD-904 that Tom tweaked

My 3 components (Tom Evans tweaked) work very well together .... I suppose that the best way to compare/describe, is that the soundstage just seems a lot better (than my old system) ... I still need to sort speakers, but I have been in touch with Tom, and he has advised.

And the nice thing is that I know in a few years time, I will double or triple my money (from what I paid) ... these old Tom Evans items are as rare as hen's teeth, and prices have already doubled in the past couple of years... Tom still services these items

 

[dim_span]

and, there was a thread a while back on here from Thaiman about Tom Evans' Master groove (I always read Thaiman's threads with interest, as he buys top of the range kit ....

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/your-system/review-tom-evans-audio-design-mastergroove

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Maybe a website is only a shop window but this window is boarded up. His kit will not be on my shortlist.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Good to see some links to sites selling ridiculously priced components. Its difficult to believe that anyone, no matter how wealthy, would waste their money in this way.

 

[dim_span]

Good to see some links to sites selling ridiculously priced components. Its difficult to believe that anyone, no matter how wealthy, would waste their money in this way.

but you bought Yamaha V2065. and MS Mezzo?

*acute*

 

[TrevC]

Good to see some links to sites selling ridiculously priced components. Its difficult to believe that anyone, no matter how wealthy, would waste their money in this way.

but you bought Yamaha V2065. and MS Mezzo?

*acute*

A good solid choice, surely better than buying overpriced voodoo tweaked hifi from some numpty on the internet.

 

[steve_1979]

 

[Vladimir]

Newton's law isn't actually correct. It's only a very very close approximation which is still accurate enough to enable simple calculations to be done (most of the time) in the space industry when controlling the orbit of satalites and the movement other space craft.

But is it accurate enough to design directional speaker cables these days?

However in practice I doubt that this could be done accurately on Earth. There are too many other factors effecting changes in gravitational forces which would skew the results. The most notable factor would be the Moon which as it orbits would apply a constantly changing gravitational force (in both direction and slightly in amplitude) making the much smaller force of the lamp and CD player hard to detect accurately. There's also the sun and other planets which would have the same effect but to a lesser degree. On top of that there's the movement of the fluid interia of planet Earth and its solid iron core which slightly alters the exact centre of gravity of our planet as it moves as well as causing small tremors and vibrations that would also skew the results. That's before you even consider any local external factors such as any passing traffic or other moving objects nearby.

John Goodman?

 

[steve_1979]

Substituting values into the equation (to make the maths easier, I assumed the lamp and CD player are 1Kg each, separated by a distance of 1M) gets F = 6.76 x 10^-11N or 67 picoNewtons. Remarkably, there are commercial sensors available that measure down to nanoNewtons, and research facilites that can measure down to 10^-15 Newtons.

On the basis of pretty much no knowledge of whether Steve was right, with 10 minutes of digging, I am now relatively sure he is wrong, and that you can measure the attraction between a lamp and a CD player, albeit in research conditions only.

There may be equipment that can measure the force of gravity (which is actually the force of acceleration according Einstein) to an accuracy of just 10^-15 Newtons. So in theory you could measure the attraction between something as small as a lamp and a CD player at a distance of a few metres.

However in practice I doubt that this could be done accurately on Earth. There are too many other factors effecting changes in gravitational forces which would skew the results. The most notable factor would be the Moon which as it orbits would apply a constantly changing gravitational force (in both direction and slightly in amplitude) making the much smaller force of the lamp and CD player hard to detect accurately. There's also the sun and other planets which would have the same effect but to a lesser degree. On top of that there's the movement of the fluid interia of planet Earth and its solid iron core which slightly alters the exact centre of gravity of our planet as it moves as well as causing small tremors and vibrations that would also skew the results. That's before you even consider any local external factors such as any passing traffic or other moving objects nearby.

In the vast open spaces inbetween solar systems where external gravitational influences are small enough to be insignificant, you could probably measure the force of attraction between a lamp and CD player but on Earth with all these other factors skewing the result I very much doubt it could be done accurately. You could very accurately and easily estimate these forces using Newton's Law or if you wanted to calculate it perfectly you'd need to use Einstein's theory of relavity.

But don't mind me though. I've still got my pernickerty head on again today.

At least it's more interesting than bloody cables.

 

[steve_1979]

Firstly, be open to the idea you are wrong.

Oh I'm well aware of the 'steve is catastrophically and utterly wrong' phenomenon. It happens regularly. I'm happy to hold my hands up and (hopefully) learn from these mistakes when it happens though.

 

[steve_1979]

Calculable yes. But I doubt the gravitational attraction of something as small as a lamp is accurately measureable considering the gravitational attraction of everything in the vicinity having an effect too. The constantly varying gravitation effect of the sun and moon probably has more effect than a lamp despite it only being a couple of meters away.

Don't mind me though. I've just got my pernickety head on today.

...Somehere in my past (probably physics O level) I remember something about Newton's law of gravitation. It turns out that Newton had proposed (and it seems so far he was correct) that the attraction between two bodies due to gravity is given by (thanks to Wikipedia):

F = (G * mass1 * mass2) / (distance between the objects)^2

G (universal gravitational constant) is one of those fudge factors you find in physics to make the units work.

Newton's law isn't actually correct. It's only a very close approximation which is still accurate enough to enable simple calculations to be done (most of the time) in the space industry when controlling the orbit of satallites or the movement other space craft.

Newton's law of gravity was thought to be correct until Urbain Le Verrier discovered that the orbit of Mercury doesn't obey Newton's law. It turns out that Newton's law is inaccurate when a body is in close proximity to another very massive body (as is the case with Mercury's close orbit to the sun). This finding is what led Einstein to work on his theory of relativity which perfectly predicts gravitys effect on all orbits in all situations unlike Newtons law which does not.

Google "the orbit of Mercury and Newton".