TrevC
Well-known member
dim_span said:
I visited the shyster's website.
"we realised that the binding posts were dramatically effecting the sound of our amplifiers"
Like heck they did.
I visited the shyster's website.
"we realised that the binding posts were dramatically effecting the sound of our amplifiers"
Like heck they did.
Vladimir said:
This is a tough call. One might reasonably expect that expectation bias might come into play here.
We are all well versed with the effects of an observer on interactions at the quantum level, so with the observer plainly biased towards the Tara Labs this should shift the probability firmly in the direction of the that cable.
£1500 well spent then......*yahoo*
BigH
Well-known member
dim_span said:
Some of you lot are bonkers. I read your other post asking about £250 speakers because your old 35w was not upto driving your old B&W ones. Did you spend all your money on cables and binding posts? I don't spend any money on speaker cables.
Considering how the mafia laundres their money on ebay, I wonder if audiophile cables, resonators and quantum crystals are something of a similar scheme to some.
This Tom (£250 binding posts) Evans? Where is he well respected in the industry? His website aint gainin much respect from me. The photo of his amp is a cake!! Respect. Does he use his own £250 binding posts in his own amps & other kit? dim-spam?
Do have a look at the site - laughable.
Do have a look at the site - laughable.
steve_1979 said:andyjm said:
Calculable yes. But I doubt the gravitational attraction of something as small as a lamp is accurately measureable considering the gravitational attraction of everything in the vicinity having an effect too. The constantly varying gravitation effect of the sun and moon probably has more effect than a lamp despite it only being a couple of meters away.
Don't mind me though. I've just got my pernickety head on today.
So, may I suggest the following is a good example for the 'silver is brighter' brigade, or those who have convinced themselves that they hear a difference by changing one perfectly good cable for another.
Firstly, be open to the idea you are wrong. Secondly, do some reseach on the web - it is absolutely remarkable how much high quality stuff is out there. It really is a golden age for knowledge. Thirdly, don't be put off by a bit of maths (none of this is complex) and see whether the changes you believe you hear are in fact audible. Fourthly, amend your opinion depending on your analysis.
Steve has proposed that you couldn't measure the attraction of lamp to a CD player. My assumption is he is wrong. Rather than blather on about what 'I believe', I looked it up. Somehere in my past (probably physics O level) I remember something about Newton's law of gravitation. It turns out that Newton had proposed (and it seems so far he was correct) that the attraction between two bodies due to gravity is given by (thanks to Wikipedia):
F = (G * mass1 * mass2) / (distance between the objects)^2
G (universal gravitational constant) is one of those fudge factors you find in physics to make the units work.
Substituting values into the equation (to make the maths easier, I assumed the lamp and CD player are 1Kg each, separated by a distance of 1M) gets F = 6.76 x 10^-11N or 67 picoNewtons. Remarkably, there are commercial sensors available that measure down to nanoNewtons, and research facilites that can measure down to 10^-15 Newtons.
On the basis of pretty much no knowledge of whether Steve was right, with 10 minutes of digging, I am now relatively sure he is wrong, and that you can measure the attraction between a lamp and a CD player, albeit in research conditions only. I have a basis for my opinion, and while I may still be wrong myself, I have explained my reasoning - and we can now have a sensible discussion about who is wrong and right.
It is very difficult for an engineer to counter 'I trust my ears', as the reason for a change in sound due to a change in cable - to be honest, 'I trust my ears' is no basis for anything apart from the immediate assumption of expectation bias.
For the cable believers, dig around the web for basic circuit theory (if you don't fancy that, there are worked examples on exactly the amp/cable/speaker interaction in question) and see for yourself. I would welcome a discussion about the audibilty of changing cables with numbers, rather than 'I trust my ears' or 'silver cables are brighter'
I recently completely renovated and dedicated my listening room.
I changed some power cables around and heard a difference - then changed them back and heard a difference back to how it was before.
There is no justification needed for that as far as I am concerened - thats what happened.
I own them all - I was not testing really just organising and seeing what fitted best in terms of location and organisation and best sound as you always do.
Any comment said negative towards that experience will not change anything. This thread is not supposed to be about debate - read the title.
I changed some power cables around and heard a difference - then changed them back and heard a difference back to how it was before.
There is no justification needed for that as far as I am concerened - thats what happened.
I own them all - I was not testing really just organising and seeing what fitted best in terms of location and organisation and best sound as you always do.
Any comment said negative towards that experience will not change anything. This thread is not supposed to be about debate - read the title.
ellisdj said:
I think you need to be open to the possibility that subjective personal experience may be open to bias, and that just because you heard a difference, it doesn't meant that there was an actual change in the sound. To be clear, I am not suggesting you imagined the change, but perceived sound is the result of multiple inputs, not just the sound waves on your eardrum.
I am open to that fact as I have caught myself out in the past, however it happened as I explained it.
Its another 4 pages of wasted life and boring reading for anyone remotely interested not involved.
People that say cables make no difference and leave it at that - I respect if that is what their experiences has lead them to believe, there is no need to keep going on. However the other many posts of pure sarcasm that is not funny the millionth time you have read the same thing. All its doing is stopping people using the forum so its the same people writing the same stuff
I wished WHF would moderate and stop this happening.
I have said this before there needs to be a cables dont make a difference thread so all the naysayers can laugh and joke together at the idiots who buy these products.
Then the other people that have always heard differences can share opinion and help each other.
There is no need for the constant bombardment from people who insist on ruining any chance people have of getting any advice from anyone else or sharing their opinion - your opinions are only that and everyones is just as valid - I feel its time to stop this insistent behaviour of every thread on such a topic as cables is ruined by constant uneccessary comments and thats mostly what they are if you actually look at them. There is no need for them to be written again for the millionth time.
Why cant the posters who know who they are just stay out of it and let other people share their positive experience. Whether you believe it or not is not important and there is no need to comment every single time / thread. Its doesnt have a positive effect on anything, it wont change an opinion someone has already forged so there is no benefit to it, other than it seems to make people happy to write such things, some sort of getting one over mind set which is not whats happening at all? - its only negative toward the forum and other people.
Just like this post will make no difference what so ever but at least I am trying to stop this happening
Its another 4 pages of wasted life and boring reading for anyone remotely interested not involved.
People that say cables make no difference and leave it at that - I respect if that is what their experiences has lead them to believe, there is no need to keep going on. However the other many posts of pure sarcasm that is not funny the millionth time you have read the same thing. All its doing is stopping people using the forum so its the same people writing the same stuff
I wished WHF would moderate and stop this happening.
I have said this before there needs to be a cables dont make a difference thread so all the naysayers can laugh and joke together at the idiots who buy these products.
Then the other people that have always heard differences can share opinion and help each other.
There is no need for the constant bombardment from people who insist on ruining any chance people have of getting any advice from anyone else or sharing their opinion - your opinions are only that and everyones is just as valid - I feel its time to stop this insistent behaviour of every thread on such a topic as cables is ruined by constant uneccessary comments and thats mostly what they are if you actually look at them. There is no need for them to be written again for the millionth time.
Why cant the posters who know who they are just stay out of it and let other people share their positive experience. Whether you believe it or not is not important and there is no need to comment every single time / thread. Its doesnt have a positive effect on anything, it wont change an opinion someone has already forged so there is no benefit to it, other than it seems to make people happy to write such things, some sort of getting one over mind set which is not whats happening at all? - its only negative toward the forum and other people.
Just like this post will make no difference what so ever but at least I am trying to stop this happening
Ellisjd,
I dont know your area of expertise, but lets say you had knowledge about aeronautics, and you participated in a forum where enthusiasts discussed their experience flying model planes, and a number of posters were discussing painting their planes blue because it made them fly better.
You could either ignore the thread, or point out the colour of the wings really made no difference. Ignoring the thread meant that other posters would be misinformed if they read the post for advice, commenting would potentially upset the cosy 'blue is best' circle.
Not a clear cut decision.
While it is never clear on a forum like this, I and a few others have real experience in this field, some who have actually designed and tested equipment for a living. Others are 'armchair' experts who clearly don't have any technical expertise. I try to be polite and respectful in my posts, but I do think it is appropriate to point out the absurdities in some of the posts on here or these things become self perpetuating. The 'silver is brighter' and 'use jumper cables instead of shorting plates' are two cases in point, where in spite of the best attempts of those who know what they are talking about to point out that these claims are daft, thread after thread continues to give this as advice to unsuspecting newbies.
I dont know your area of expertise, but lets say you had knowledge about aeronautics, and you participated in a forum where enthusiasts discussed their experience flying model planes, and a number of posters were discussing painting their planes blue because it made them fly better.
You could either ignore the thread, or point out the colour of the wings really made no difference. Ignoring the thread meant that other posters would be misinformed if they read the post for advice, commenting would potentially upset the cosy 'blue is best' circle.
Not a clear cut decision.
While it is never clear on a forum like this, I and a few others have real experience in this field, some who have actually designed and tested equipment for a living. Others are 'armchair' experts who clearly don't have any technical expertise. I try to be polite and respectful in my posts, but I do think it is appropriate to point out the absurdities in some of the posts on here or these things become self perpetuating. The 'silver is brighter' and 'use jumper cables instead of shorting plates' are two cases in point, where in spite of the best attempts of those who know what they are talking about to point out that these claims are daft, thread after thread continues to give this as advice to unsuspecting newbies.
Now I've lost track of who is trolling who.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Who trolls the trolls?
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Who trolls the trolls?
ID. said:
A good point. I am at home suffering with 'man flu' at the moment, and clearly have too much time on my hands. I will go and leave this subject to others.
+1 andyjm
These threads will always be hijacked by those hoping to prevent others from wasting money or falling victim to scams etc. A good thing without doubt and most posters do so with best intentions.
If we believed without question all the marketing claims on the Internet, television, newspapers, emails & telephone calls ..... There are sadly so many scams around many of which are criminal but many simply making unsupported claims.
This post has hinted at cables costing thousands, banana plugs & terminals costing hundreds (each) and so many other very expensive small tweaks. Poor connectors or cables are bad but potentially spending many thousands of pounds to connect two terminals is also ridiculous. The 'truth' is in the middle somewhere and science points one way, faith the other.
The truth could be determined beyond reasonable doubt easily but probably never will.
These threads will always be hijacked by those hoping to prevent others from wasting money or falling victim to scams etc. A good thing without doubt and most posters do so with best intentions.
If we believed without question all the marketing claims on the Internet, television, newspapers, emails & telephone calls ..... There are sadly so many scams around many of which are criminal but many simply making unsupported claims.
This post has hinted at cables costing thousands, banana plugs & terminals costing hundreds (each) and so many other very expensive small tweaks. Poor connectors or cables are bad but potentially spending many thousands of pounds to connect two terminals is also ridiculous. The 'truth' is in the middle somewhere and science points one way, faith the other.
The truth could be determined beyond reasonable doubt easily but probably never will.
andyjm said:
Posted once then that is understandable - this thread asked for advice, but instead its 4 pages of mostly sarcastic comments - its even sarcastic comments in the thread I just started as well - its used as an excuse to show of sarcasm skills which benefits noone.
Instead there would be 4 pages of recommendations for the op to go an try for himself - from arm chair experts or not, right or wrong in their judgement. You dont have to be an expert to advise something to try
It matters only to him if buying a different cable makes it sound better to him it doesnt matter to anyone else.
But its not 4 pages of recommendations its mostly 4 pages of sarcastic comments for umpteeenth time. It just ruining the forum and pushing people elsewhere. Its about time it stopped because its only fun for the people writing the sarcastic comments in some weird way again and again - its like naughty kids at school behaviour ruining it for everyone else - that is how it is perceived not ever as constructive
This is exactly the kind of thread that first lead me to run an informal blind test on some cables I had on home dem. The cables went back after the blind test. I've since 'blind tested' a number of speaker cables and interconnects, always with the same result. This is exactly the kind of thread that saved me a lot of money in the long run. Whilst this may be the millionth time someone has read a thread like this, it may also be the first time someone has read a thread like this.
Craig M - possibly the only useful reply here? Including (ofcourse) mine.
I think what annoys me most (in lots of areas outside hifi too) is the pseudo science in marketing and yet never simple scientific results or measurements to support it. I'd rather they just say trust the black magic. All the different manufacturers claim there own particular scientific discoveries.
I think what annoys me most (in lots of areas outside hifi too) is the pseudo science in marketing and yet never simple scientific results or measurements to support it. I'd rather they just say trust the black magic. All the different manufacturers claim there own particular scientific discoveries.
Firstly, googling and theory cannot replace real experience. You need to buy as much as Hi-Fi as possible to have a valid opinion and give out advice. Have you even heard silver cables? I laugh at you sir.
Secondly, Wikipedia? Seriously? Anyone can write anything on there.
Thridly, scientists have been wrong so many times. They had us believe the sun revolves arround the moon and the earth is flat. They couldn't even save Steve Jobs.
Quttroporte, hi-fi is about music, not about science and come il buon vino it shouldn't be measured or calculated but heard and felt and tasted untill a fine palette is developed. So, stop reading and begin buying gear and listening to the music.
Cinquecento, don't be fascist and allow others opinions on what they heard for themselves and don't smother them with your theories.
*beee*
Secondly, Wikipedia? Seriously? Anyone can write anything on there.
Thridly, scientists have been wrong so many times. They had us believe the sun revolves arround the moon and the earth is flat. They couldn't even save Steve Jobs.
Quttroporte, hi-fi is about music, not about science and come il buon vino it shouldn't be measured or calculated but heard and felt and tasted untill a fine palette is developed. So, stop reading and begin buying gear and listening to the music.
Cinquecento, don't be fascist and allow others opinions on what they heard for themselves and don't smother them with your theories.
*beee*
Craig M. said:
I doubt it will be the first time someone has read the above a thread like this - however you have done your tests and proved to yourself what you now think. I respect that totally as I am sure others who have experienced the opposite would ask you to do in return.
TrevC
Well-known member
ellisdj said:
If a recommendation is nonsense, as many on here are, the person that made must be called on it.. I always try to be as factually accurate as possible.
TrevC
Well-known member
Vladimir said:
Vladimir, stop dictating what others may post. HiFi and your ability to write your musings only exist because of science.
TrevC said:
Its only nonsense to you - not them, you might never agree but that doesnt make them wrong
TrevC
Well-known member
ellisdj said:
I would never dispute something like the differences between the sound of speakers because that is entirely subjective and the differences are so large they cannot be denied, but arrant nonsense about the sound of, say, expensive mains wires I will dispute because they are simply not possible.
http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm
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