going from floorstanders to small active speakers

[nopiano]

Have followed this with interest and have learned a lot about powered monitors in the process! Your persistence has been rewarded, with some great advice from DDC.

 

[davedotco]

Wasn't tempted by the A7-series. Wouldn't know how they would work out in reality, but I don't think I could overcome the psychological effects of going for something with less refinement.

With respect to the type of music I listen to (lots of oldies, world music, indie / lesser known popular music, some rock, jazz and blues), I doubt that I would desperately need the sub in most of the situations. Nonetheless, the lack of lower Hz has been noticeable in some of the songs (a minority, but not unsubstantial) during the transition, and those lower frequencies indeed added some warmth to the songs, which I liked.

I'm not sure though what it exactly is that I like and want when it comes to the lower regions, my experience with different speakers is just way too limited to say anything meaningful about it. What I do know, however, is that I don't need the bass to start a party.

Working that out is the trick. My own experience tells me that most 'popular' music does not need deep bass, even dub reggae, to which I am rather partial!

To expand on what I said above, what really works for me is 'mid bass' that is really tight and fast, with a lot of punch. This area gives most music it's weight and is where drums and electric bass really make their presence felt. A lot of speakers 'hype' this area to give the impression of more bass but to my ears this is false and pretty unpleasant, any suggestion of 'boom' or 'overhang' and I am not interested.

If you have an equaliser (in software maybe) I find that it helps to make exaggerated corrections to see what is happening at different frequencies, idealy a third octave graphic is what you need as it is so visual, I find it helps a lot.

 

[Broner]

Just put on Lorde - Royals. I know, it's been played a lot lately, but I do like the track (it ages well if I can already say such a thing) and it has some very nice bass in it. Despite their obvious limitations (<-- size), the A5X's are nonetheless capable of revealing which items in my living room enjoy to resonate a little bit, and they do allow for a very enjoyable listening experience. They could fool one into thinking one waas dealing with a pair of floorstanders, until, of course, you do a side by side comparison.

The funny is: Royals was one of the songs that showed me what I would be missing after the transition and now that I've gotten used to these little devilish speakers, it's difficult to imagine what it exactly is that I am missing again. I know I heard it before and I know that my intestins agreed with me in the side-by-side comparison, but now after a little while it has become so much harder to hear it.

I guess it's hard to grasp that which is hidden

Anyway, I'm a bit on a ramble here. Will look into your suggestion and in due time I will listen to some subs.

 

[Broner]

In another topic in this forum I mentioned to Dave that I hear a little bit of noise (or hiss, whatever the appropriate terminology is) coming out of my speakers. The loudness of the noise is independent from the level of volume when I adjust it with my controller, but it does go up and down if I turn the volume knobs on the speakers themselves. The noise is very soft and I really don’t hear it when playing music. It can be heard up to a distance of about 15-30 cm (but then it is really really really soft). I’m not really bothered by it but if anyone has suggestions for reducing it further, I would be happy to hear it. I've noticed that changing the position of the DAC certainly affects the noise, but only limitedly.

My setup consists of a sonos connect, a set-top box, a tv, 2 A5X speakers and a Fiio D03K (also see picture to see how they are connected to the sockets). The connectors between the speakers and Fiio D03K are these: http://www.allekabels.nl/tulp-kabel/9/1017095/tulp-kabel-professioneel.html

I’ve also added a photo of a simple drawing to see how it’s connected. Power cables are excluded from the drawing, but on the photo it can be seen that they all go into a row of sockets.

Feel free to comment! (and please note that I will organise things when a new cupboard for the tv arrives ). One final note: the table that the tv rests on is made of metal.

Cheers, your Broner

 

[davedotco]

OK, cool.

A few thoughts. Generally, if the noise varies with the level control on the speaker, then it is probably on the input.

One way to check this is with a shorting plug. Find a phono plug and solder the pin to the screen, ie a 'dead short'. Switch the speaker off and disconnect, fit the shorting plug into the unbalanced socket, power up and check for noise, increasing the volume to see what happens.

If you still get the noise contact Adam and have a word, these are nearfield/desktop monitors, they are designed to be used up close and should be pretty quiet. You should, just, be able to tell that they are powered up, with your ear very close.

If you get less noise with the input shorted then you are feeding noise into the speaker. Try eliminating the dac and connect to the Sonos pre-amp outs, just to see what happens. if at all possible try other leads.

As I mentioned before a different phono cable might help, the twin core, shield connected at one end only type may well help. Depends how important it is to you.

 

[Broner]

Thanks for the reply. It's great that you're willing to look into it. For the moment I could really only connect the cables directly to the sonos instead of the DAC. Some things were changing; the character of the noise that I hear changes. With the DAC in between it can alter quite a bit. It really never becomes loud or anything - again, we're really talking about something you can only hear up close - but it can become either irregular or even regular with short pulses, on top of the little bit of noise that can be heard when the speakers are only connected to the connect. It doesn't really become louder or anything with the DAC.

I will need to wait for the weekend to look further into it. I need to catch a train very early in the morning (5:25) and I will be abroad for a couple of days.

Cheers

 

[davedotco]

Thanks for the reply. It's great that you're willing to look into it. For the moment I could really only connect the cables directly to the sonos instead of the DAC. Some things were changing; the character of the noise that I hear changes. With the DAC in between it can alter quite a bit. It really never becomes loud or anything - again, we're really talking about something you can only hear up close - but it can become either irregular or even regular with short pulses, on top of the little bit of noise that can be heard when the speakers are only connected to the connect. It doesn't really become louder or anything with the DAC.

I will need to wait for the weekend to look further into it. I need to catch a train very early in the morning (5:25) and I will be abroad for a couple of days.

Cheers

Interesting.

You may have seen posts on here talking about 'out of band noise' and RF (radio frequency) noise that can be generated by digital processors and somehow getting into amplifiers, this is most probably what we have here.

Fortunately, as you say, the issue is minor and at normal listening distances of no consequence whatsoever. Generally manufacturers go to great length to make sure that any noise is removed from the signal but it is more difficult to remove it from the chassis ground.

Hence the cables I mentioned. A 'normal rca phono lead has a single core connected to the pin, signal, and a shield connected to the outer part of the connector, the return. Mostly in hi-fi that will work because most hi-fi equipment keeps the signal ground and the chassis ground separate so there is no connection between the chassis ground of the two pieces of kit being connected.

Sometimes that is not the case and the chassis and signal ground is common, so noise 'leaks' into the signal through the ground connections. One of the big advantages of balanced connections is that a transformer can be used to isolate one piece of kit from the next, in my day that used to be standard practice at 'serious' institutions such as the BBC and EMI studios.

Anyway, the best way to handle this in normal, unbalanced setups is to use the twin core leads with the screen connected at one end only, as mentioned above.

Broner. This may seem overly complex for such a minor noise problem, but I used to do this sort of thing for a living and I like getting to the bottom of such issues. Not a big problem in your case but imagine the fun to be had tracking down an RF or earth issue with a 50,000watt pa system on the end and a fair few thousand people waiting for a show....... :doh:

 

[Broner]

Hi David, will response later thuis week as it's quote annoying when you only have your mobile phone tot work with

 

[Broner]

Hi Dave,

I don’t feel that this is all overly complex for such a minor issue. I mean: I really have no quarrels with my setup, but sometimes one just wants to get things right, if you know what I mean. It might even help to get rid of any possible blockades in my brain that prevents optimal appreciation of what I’m hearing (if those blockades are there, that is) . If that turns out to be too cumbersome or too expensive, I will, however, have no troubles whatsoever to drop the issue and enjoy the system as it is. You’ve got to be realistic about these things.

Please do realize that I don’t understand everything you say. I googled some of the things you mentioned (such as signal ground & chassis ground), so your story now makes sense to me, but I really don’t exactly know how to identify the type of cable you mentioned when I browse through the typical websites here that sell cables. Do you think any respectable hi-fi store sells those cables? I can always check out the local one.

Not a big problem in your case but imagine the fun to be had tracking down an RF or earth issue with a 50,000watt pa system on the end and a fair few thousand people waiting for a show.......

That sounds awful: a sound engineer’s worst fear, I imagine

 

[davedotco]

Hi Dave,

I don’t feel that this is all overly complex for such a minor issue. I mean: I really have no quarrels with my setup, but sometimes one just wants to get things right, if you know what I mean. It might even help to get rid of any possible blockades in my brain that prevents optimal appreciation of what I’m hearing (if those blockades are there, that is) . If that turns out to be too cumbersome or too expensive, I will, however, have no troubles whatsoever to drop the issue and enjoy the system as it is. You’ve got to be realistic about these things.

Please do realize that I don’t understand everything you say. I googled some of the things you mentioned (such as signal ground & chassis ground), so your story now makes sense to me, but I really don’t exactly know how to identify the type of cable you mentioned when I browse through the typical websites here that sell cables. Do you think any respectable hi-fi store sells those cables? I can always check out the local one.

Not a big problem in your case but imagine the fun to be had tracking down an RF or earth issue with a 50,000watt pa system on the end and a fair few thousand people waiting for a show.......

That sounds awful: a sound engineer’s worst fear, I imagine

The cable may need to be custom made. Some manufacturers refer to this style of cable as 'quasi-balanced', Nigel at the Chord Company will know what you want but probably not a cheap option. There are plenty of custom cable companies around, just tell them what you need and get a quote.

The other possibility is that, nice though the D3 dac is, it might not be all that great at rejecting out of band noise, if you can get your hands on other dacs to try that might be worthwhile.

The PA thing is a lot of fun though not always.

Many years ago we were contracted to supply the hardware for, of all people, a Sister Sledge tour. Unusually they had a full crew and wanted the hardware only, we did a couple of days 'technicals' with the crew and, along with my engineer, supervised the first couple of gigs.

They were not paying for us so third night they were on their own. It was a weekend and about 5pm I got a panic phone call from the tour manager, the PA is ******, it's humming like crazy, want another system, scream, threat etc, etc, etc.

I called my assistant and told him to stand by and belted down the M4 to the gig, which fortunately was only in Reading, half an hours drive. Walked into the gig, every one in complete panic, as I approached the FOH desk the american engineer faded up the PA and sure enough, lots of hum and buzz.

I walked over to the desk, lifted up the power supply which was placed on the table next to the desk, and put it on the floor 3ft or so under the desk. The hum of course completely dissapeared, power supplies are in an outboard box for a reason......!

 

[Broner]

Hehe, I think I will leave things as they are. I really don’t want to spend more than another 15 pounds on this. It’s just not that important to start contacting custom cable companies (especially not UK companies as I live in Belgium). With respect to the D03K: you might remember that I noticed differences in the noise when I connected the speakers directly to the Sonos Connect. With the DAC connected between the other components, the level of noise didn’t really rise, but it became – how shall I say it – more diversified. It might be worth to try another DAC, but that would again be an investment I wouldn’t be willing to make (cheap bastard alert!).

Hope you’re not disappointed that I will leave things as they are. I enjoyed the little excursion though , and I learned a thing or two.

The PA thing is a lot of fun though not always.

Many years ago we were contracted to supply the hardware for, of all people, a Sister Sledge tour. Unusually they had a full crew and wanted the hardware only, we did a couple of days 'technicals' with the crew and, along with my engineer, supervised the first couple of gigs.

They were not paying for us so third night they were on their own. It was a weekend and about 5pm I got a panic phone call from the tour manager, the PA is ******, it's humming like crazy, want another system, scream, threat etc, etc, etc.

I called my assistant and told him to stand by and belted down the M4 to the gig, which fortunately was only in Reading, half an hours drive. Walked into the gig, every one in complete panic, as I approached the FOH desk the american engineer faded up the PA and sure enough, lots of hum and buzz.

I walked over to the desk, lifted up the power supply which was placed on the table next to the desk, and put it on the floor 3ft or so under the desk. The hum of course completely dissapeared, power supplies are in an outboard box for a reason......!

Great story! I hope they threw in some food and a couple of beers to compensate you for your services... Or money of course