Full-house Sonos setup

[KCmb]

We're currently having a major house refurb and would like to install a multi-room system and home cinema. I'm considering a full Sonos setup but wonder whether it's really a cost-effective solution when done on such a scale. The wish list below would be sufficient for a lounge/dining room, snug/TV room, kitchen, utility room, 3 bedrooms and 3 bathrooms. The plan would be to install cabling to allow each of the 3 pairs of bathroom speakers to be run from a Sonos 3 in the adjoining bedroom. Cat6 cabling is being installed throughout as well.Sonos 1 x2 = £338Sonos 3 x5 = £1,295Sonos 5 x2 = £698Sonos Bridge x2 = £78Sonos Playbar x1 = £599Sonos Playbar wall mount kit x1 = £35
Sonos Connect: Amp x1 = £399Sonos Sub x1 = £599Ceiling Speakers x6 (x3 pairs) = £??? (Any recommendations for bathrooms welcomed)
At current Sonos list prices, this comes to £4,041 (exc ceiling speakers). The proven simplicity of Sonos is appealing, but I don't know whether I could achieve the same/ a better solution by going down a different track. Music and video is hosted on a Qnap NAS. Any input greatly welcomed!

 

[skippy]

I'm not gonna go to deep into this for starters 'cause I think this will evolve over the next few posts.

Basically if you can't plug any of the connects/plays directly into the router, then you'll need a bridge (and you'll only need 1).

The Play3's won't be able to run your in-ceiling speakers, that needs to be a different setup. http://nadelectronics.com/products/custom-installation/CI-9060-Power-Amplifier#heading-downloads may do the trick from one Sonos connect.

I've not heard the Play1/3/5's in action so can't comment on their sound, but I have a connect into active speakers which sound ace.

So the question to you is do you want each room to have it's own music and volume control or can you compromise?

The Sonos connect has 3 outputs that run simultaneously which means you could run 3 active ystems at once (using 2 DACs), the compromise is they would be playing the same music at the same volume, obviously you'd have to run either rca, optical or s/pdif cables.

The-Lhc is probably the best guy on here for Sonos Q&A's.

 

[bigboss]

If you're installing Cat6 cabling, and are able to connect a Sonos component to the router, you won't need the Bridge. Sonos occasionally comes up with discounts (usually 10%). In any case, given the volume of your order, speaking to a few dealers will get you some discount.

 

[bigboss]

Sonos Play:1 has been designed to work in high humidity areas like bathroom (although not water proof).

Why do you want one in the utility room? Are you going to spend much time there? Also, will you be happy to have the same music running in 2-3 rooms?

Can you give a break up of each room as to which Sonos component is going where?

 

[KCmb]

Thanks for the input. The setup I'd allowed for is as follows;

Snug/TV will be primarily TV and movie watching (occasional audio). The list allows for a Playbar, amp, sub and 2x Play 1s to create a 5.1 setup.

Lounge/dining room; 2x Play 5s

Kitchen; 1x Play 3

Utility; 1x Play 3 (listen during admin!)

Bedrooms and en-suites; 3x Play 3 connected to ceiling speaker pairs in bathroom (although it's good to learn this setup won't work...)

Would like to be able to run the kitchen, dining room and lounge in party mode.

 

[AlmaataKZ]

If you are not final on Sonos yet, an AirPlay based system can be a slightly cheaper alternative. Example here: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/your-system/a-5-zone-multiroom-airplay-system-for-a-friend

If you use active speakers then you do not need amps. The cheapest actives I found were Monitor Audios WS100 (and they sound excellent). Some recent actives like AVI DM5, Genelec G range, Canton AM5, B&O 4PC have signal sensing power so you do need to switch then on/off - which is a usability consideration.

there are also other multiroom systems coming out now, but I do not know much about them.

 

[The_Lhc]

Thanks for the input. The setup I'd allowed for is as follows;

Snug/TV will be primarily TV and movie watching (occasional audio). The list allows for a Playbar, amp, sub and 2x Play 1s to create a 5.1 setup.

Amp? What sort of amp and what is it for? All the Sonos devices you mention there are fully amplified so no further amp is required. Do you mean a pre-amp to allow multiple source connections to the Playbar perhaps?

Lounge/dining room; 2x Play 5s

Kitchen; 1x Play 3

Utility; 1x Play 3 (listen during admin!)

All fine.

Bedrooms and en-suites; 3x Play 3 connected to ceiling speaker pairs in bathroom (although it's good to learn this setup won't work...)

As mentioned none of the Play devices can power any other speaker, they are speakers already and there are no outputs on them to allow this (although you could run some active speakers from a Play:5's headphone output but it's not apparently the greatest quality). If you have in-ceiling speakers in the bathrooms you'd need Connect:Amps to run them. If the speakers are all 8 Ohm impedance you can run two pairs from one Connect:Amp, which would cut the cost a bit, although obviously each pair would only play the same music, so you'd lose the independance of each room in that case. Whether that's important is something for you to decide.

Would like to be able to run the kitchen, dining room and lounge in party mode.

All Sonos zones/rooms can be grouped to function in party mode, so it would be entirely up to you if the Lounge/diner and kitchen are playing the same music or acting independantly of each other.

 

[The_Lhc]

Sonos Play:1 has been designed to work in high humidity areas like bathroom (although not water proof).

You still need to be aware of any local regulations regarding mains power in the bathroom though (I can't work out if this is a UK user or not).

 

[The_Lhc]

If you're installing Cat6 cabling, and are able to connect a Sonos component to the router, you won't need the Bridge.

Indeed. With that number of rooms presumably there's a switch or two involved somewhere. In that case you need to ensure that any such switch is STP compliant (either automatically, like most "dumb" switches do or explicitly set per port on a managed switch), otherwise you'll suffer from network storms due to loops created by simultaneous wired and wireless connections between the Sonos devices (they don't turn off their wireless when a wired connection is present).

 

[KCmb]

I can confirm I'm UK-based and understand that running power to any speakers in the bathroom is not going to pass building control approval. Suspect the setup I'd considered is not going to work, so any other (more cost effective) suggestions for how to pipe sound to the bathroom from a bedroom would be appreciated (£399 for a Connect: Amp to power each pair is excessive).

Thanks for the steer on the Connect: Amp in the snug; I overspec'ed this and the Bridge, so that's a few quid saved.

Interesting to hear about the signal detect feature in other products; does anyone know if Sonos have anything planned along these lines that could justify postponing the purchase?

 

[The_Lhc]

I can confirm I'm UK-based and understand that running power to any speakers in the bathroom is not going to pass building control approval. Suspect the setup I'd considered is not going to work, so any other (more cost effective) suggestions for how to pipe sound to the bathroom from a bedroom would be appreciated (£399 for a Connect: Amp to power each pair is excessive).

As I said if you can live with the same audio playing in two bathrooms (or a bedroom and bathroom, makes sense if you have an ensuite) then a Connect:Amp will happily run two pairs of 8 Ohm speakers, which brings the effective cost down to £200 per room.

Interesting to hear about the signal detect feature in other products; does anyone know if Sonos have anything planned along these lines that could justify postponing the purchase?

Not sure what you mean here. Sonos don't give out roadmaps for future developments but they have said there will be no new hardware in 2014, beyond that nobody knows nuffink!

 

[Xanderzdad]

A much cheaper option would be to use a Play:1 in each bathroom. If you can neatly drill through the bathroom wall into an adjacent room then you can plug them in externally to the bathroom. Because this would not be a permanent fixture within the bathroom then I don't think building regs apply.

Similar to how you are allowed electric towel radiators in a bathroom.

 

[gowiththeflow]

A much cheaper option would be to use a Play:1 in each bathroom. If you can neatly drill through the bathroom wall into an adjacent room then you can plug them in externally to the bathroom. Because this would not be a permanent fixture within the bathroom then I don't think building regs apply.

Similar to how you are allowed electric towel radiators in a bathroom.

There are regulations of the placement or installation of any electrical device, within certain distances from sinks, baths, showers etc.

Electric Towel radiators are specifically designed and approved for such an installation, but there are still rules over where you can place them AFAIK.

I'm sure there are bathroom rated ceiling fit speakers available.

 

[gowiththeflow]

Snug/TV room.

Option 1. Playbar, Sub, 2x Play1

Option 2. Any other soundbar or surround system + Sonos Connect (could save a lot of money over an all Sonos set-up).

Lounge/Dining Room.

Option 1. 2x Play 5

Option 2. Sonos Amp + one or two sets of speakers. (chances are better sound quality, plus if it's one room it will probably remain as one zone).

Option 3. Sonos Connect + Active speakers.

Kitchen.

Play 3 or Play 5. The latter is stereo and better sound quality.

Utility room.

Do you need this?

If so, Play1 (how much time will you spend there and appliance noise may largely drown out most music).

Bedrooms and Bathrooms.

3x Play 3, or a mixture of Play 5 and Play 3 (e.g. upgrade to Play 5 in the master bedroom).

Do you need anything in the bathrooms, especially if any or all are en-suite?

Sonos components.

Amp, Connect, 2x Play 5, 2x Play 3, 1x Play 1 = £2063

Add on cost of cheaper soundbar set-up and speakers for the Lounge/Diner.

Amp, Playbar, Sub, 2x Play 5, 2x Play 3, 3x Play 1 = £3151

Add on cost of speakers for the Lounge/Diner.

 

[skippy]

This may be another option?

http://www.onkyo.ca/Products/model.php?m=TX-NR626&class=Receiver with 1 connect added will power 3 pairs of speakers.

So your 3 bathrooms with in-ceiling speakers could be taken care of by one connect and one amp.

Then the kitchen/lounge/diner could be on another amp, again with a connect, again this could feed in-ceiling speakers.

With your AV setup I'd be tempted to stick to a conventional setup rather the the Sonos route, but that's just my opinion

 

[KCmb]

Thanks again...

I like the idea of a Connect:Amp running two pairs of 8 Ohm speakers in the lounge/dining room and will explore this further.

Tempting as it is, I think we'll steer clear of Play 1s in the bathrooms... although I think budget considerations will mean this is a more realistic option for the Utility.

The added complication for the en-suites is that none of the three bedrooms adjoin one another. Two of the bedrooms are lower-ground floor, one is ground floor. Those on the lower-ground are separated by two other rooms (minimum 7m distance). For this reason, I don't think the option of a single Connect:Amp running two sets of speakers to each bathroom is viable... although I think a 'blended' approach might work;

a) Bed/bath 1: Sonos Connect + existing stereo + new ceiling speakers

b) Bed/bath 2 and 3: Sonos Connect:Amp plus new ceiling speakers.

Will stick with the Sonos AV setup in the Snug for now, but can see the attraction of a more conventional setup, given the HDMI connectivity options something like the Onkyo offers...

Can anyone point me in the direction of an authoritative thread on ceiling speakers? ...or is this a no-no??

 

[bigboss]

Can anyone point me in the direction of an authoritative thread on ceiling speakers? ...or is this a no-no??

It isn't a no-no. In-ceiling speakers can offer excellent performance. Due to practicalities, there aren't much reviews on them. Speak to your dealer for advice.

 

[skippy]

I use these http://www.amazon.co.uk/Yamaha-Natural--install-In-Ceiling-Tweeters/dp/B0030CPJLA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1395689672&sr=8-1&keywords=yamaha+in+ceiling+speakers in my basement as well as Polk RC65i's with a Sony receiver and the sound is more than commendable, I'd recommend that you put insulation overtop when you install any of these to minimize sound travel. Most of the speaker manufacturers have in wall/ceiling ranges, but as BB says finding reviews will be difficult

You would need moisture resistant speakers in the bathrooms.

Also you'd need in-wall cable like this http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mutec-Cable--Speaker-2-5mm%C2%B2-In-Wall-Installation/dp/B00EO0B5X8/ref=sr_1_4?s=electronics-accessories&ie=UTF8&qid=1395690090&sr=1-4&keywords=in+wall+speaker+cable it's to construction standards.

Also the Onkyo receiver I mentioned was to power 3 pairs of speakers from 1 Sonos Connect, this was for the music application rather than your home cinema...

 

[KCmb]

Ok, plenty of food for thought there and I'll post full details of my latest thinking tomorrow, together with room sizes to check my speaker allocation is adequate/not OTT.

For now, I have one more query on the Playbar/Play 1s/Sub 5.1 setup in the Snug... Would it be possible to make this into 7.1 by adding either ceiling speakers (presumably need a Connect:Amp) or an extra pair of Play 1s??

 

[bigboss]

For now, I have one more query on the Playbar/Play 1s/Sub 5.1 setup in the Snug... Would it be possible to make this into 7.1 by adding either ceiling speakers (presumably need a Connect:Amp) or an extra pair of Play 1s??

No, Sonos does not support 7.1 setup.

 

[AlmaataKZ]

Can anyone point me in the direction of an authoritative thread on ceiling speakers? ...or is this a no-no??

most big brands make them. Most smaller brands do not.

 

[KCmb]

Thought it would be useful to provide more details on room sizes and layout. Ceilings are not high, but those in the lounge/dining room comprise wooden boards that might influence the decision on speaker selection.

The list below reflects my current thinking, taking into consideration some kit I already own (abbreviations relate to a diagram I would post if I could...)

- Lounge/ Dining room/Kitchen (LDK). L-shaped layout, with Dining room between the Lounge and Kitchen. Dimensions: Lounge: 22 m², Dining room: 12 m², Kitchen: 15 m². Two options here:

1. 3x Sonos Play 5 (SP5) - one in each room, positioned in a loose triangle (able to adjust positions to suit situation)

2. Sonos Connect (SC), Harmon Kardon AVR-134, 6x ceiling speakers - x3 in Lounge, x2 in Dining room, x1 in Kitchen

- Guest Suite: Bedroom: 14 m², bathroom 6 m². Two options, dependent on LDK decision (above):

1. Sonos Connect (SC), Harmon Kardon AVR-134, 4x ceiling speakers - x2 in bedroom, x2 in bathroom

2. Sonos Connect:Amp (SCA), 4x ceiling speakers - speaker layout per option #1

N.B. I'm currently erring towards redeploying the AVR-134 out of sight in the dining room, to run ceiling speakers and (if possible) sound from a TV that will be in the kitchen.

- Snug: 12 m². Dolby 5.1 using Sonos Playbar (SPB), Sonos Sub (SS), 2x Sonos Play 3 (SP3)

- Utility: 12 m². Single Sonos Play 1 (SP1)

- Guest Bed/Bath: Bedroom: 13 m², bathroom 9 m². Sonos Connect (SC), Denon-UD-M30, 2x Gale Gold Monitor speakers (bedroom), 2x ceiling speakers (bathroom)

- Master Suite: Bedroom: 17 m², bathroom 6 m², wardrobe 5 m². 1x SCA, 4x ceiling speakers - x2 in bedroom, x1 in bathroom, x1 in wardrobe

Questions:

1. Does my speaker allocation look adequate for the room sizes?

2. In the master suite, can I run 3 speakers of one spec alongside 1 speaker for a bathroom (damp) environment from the Sonos Connect:Amp?

3. Would I be better opting for stereo or mono ceiling speakers?... Or do different rooms demand different choices?

Thank you!

 

[Yamyam]

I don't want to derail your thread, but a few of these wall-mounted with in-ceiling speakers would be very nice, shame you'll have to wait....

http://www.myoliveone.com/Ones

 

[The_Lhc]

I don't want to derail your thread, but a few of these wall-mounted with in-ceiling speakers would be very nice, shame you'll have to wait....

http://www.myoliveone.com/Ones

Wait? This was supposed to have been released a year ago! It'll never happen, don't waste your time...