Free hi-end speakers

[davedotco]

So far I am only talking about buid quality and functionality, but it has a fit and feel quality to it that is at least a match for an iPhone 5s (my wife has one) or my now nearly vintage Tag Heuer.

At some point in the next couple of days I shall find my better phones and give it a really good go. It is prabably going to be better than the phones deserve so it will be interesting.

If I start getting back into headphone listening I shall no doubt want better, always fancied a pair of planars of some kind. I used to own Stax SRXs with the (long since illegal) SRD7 mains powered energiser, rather good for the 1970s.

The build quality is certainly good and solid, plus it looks good and stacks comfortably with my phone.

You are essentially using your phone as a music server (with music player app), feeding the Oppo dac, outputting to headphones. On the Head-Fi forum, the experience seems to be that for either the oppo or mojo, the quality of the phone (within reason) has the least impact, but the type of music player app and its settings (especially if the default settings are to upscale or otherwise modify the music file) is important, followed by the headphones.

Will probably kick in at some point.

The HA2 will be used primarily as a desktop unit, fed via usb from my Macbook Pro. I shall mostly be using Spotify so slightly limited from the start so expensive phones are probably a step or two too far.

Generally I am not that big on headphone listening and these days I am less interested in the hi-fi than rooting through some of the more (or less) obscure recordings on Spotify. Currently tracing the careers of some of Miles Davis's drummers, first Dejohnette, then Williams, now Cobham, great stuff.

 

[Al ears]

So far I am only talking about buid quality and functionality, but it has a fit and feel quality to it that is at least a match for an iPhone 5s (my wife has one) or my now nearly vintage Tag Heuer.

At some point in the next couple of days I shall find my better phones and give it a really good go. It is prabably going to be better than the phones deserve so it will be interesting.

If I start getting back into headphone listening I shall no doubt want better, always fancied a pair of planars of some kind. I used to own Stax SRXs with the (long since illegal) SRD7 mains powered energiser, rather good for the 1970s.

The build quality is certainly good and solid, plus it looks good and stacks comfortably with my phone.

You are essentially using your phone as a music server (with music player app), feeding the Oppo dac, outputting to headphones. On the Head-Fi forum, the experience seems to be that for either the oppo or mojo, the quality of the phone (within reason) has the least impact, but the type of music player app and its settings (especially if the default settings are to upscale or otherwise modify the music file) is important, followed by the headphones.

Will probably kick in at some point.

The HA2 will be used primarily as a desktop unit, fed via usb from my Macbook Pro. I shall mostly be using Spotify so slightly limited from the start so expensive phones are probably a step or two too far.

Generally I am not that big on headphone listening and these days I am less interested in the hi-fi than rooting through some of the more (or less) obscure recordings on Spotify. Currently tracing the careers of some of Miles Davis's drummers, first Dejohnette, then Williams, now Cobham, great stuff.

Especially Cobham. ;-)

 

[davedotco]

Early Lifetime albums, Emergency and Turn it Over manage to combine some superb playing with all kinds of wierd 'hippy sh!t' (to quote the great c&w artist Hank Wangford). Hard to listen to as an album but some pieces are mesmerising.

I have, mostly, dismissed Cobham as jazz-rock 'flash' along with the likes of Herbie Hancock and Stanley Clarke. I find a lot of their more famous recordings to be like that, a lot of technique and ego and often not a lot else.

But this is the joy of Spotify, there are a number of less well known recordings where this is simply not the case and digging them out and playing them is a real pleasure. It may not be the ultimate in hi-fi sound quality but I could not imagine living without it these days.

Pottering around for an hour or two this morning, Total Eclipse and Crosswinds are the playlist...*i-m_so_happy*

 

[Al ears]

Early Lifetime albums, Emergency and Turn it Over manage to combine some superb playing with all kinds of wierd 'hippy sh!t' (to quote the great c&w artist Hank Wangford). Hard to listen to as an album but some pieces are mesmerising.

I have, mostly, dismissed Cobham as jazz-rock 'flash' along with the likes of Herbie Hancock and Stanley Clarke. I find a lot of their more famous recordings to be like that, a lot of technique and ego and often not a lot else.

But this is the joy of Spotify, there are a number of less well known recordings where this is simply not the case and digging them out and playing them is a real pleasure. It may not be the ultimate in hi-fi sound quality but I could not imagine living without it these days.

Pottering around for an hour or two this morning, Total Eclipse and Crosswinds are the playlist...*i-m_so_happy*

I'd just like to add to Dave that having had a good session with the speakers I have found them quite amazing considering their stature. Whilst obviously putting on a very good performance with just about everything that I enjoy and particularly acoustic guitar, piano, and voice in general, they have a small weakness in my system.

The soundstage is quite amazing and very similar to my floorstanders. They do not go quite so low in the bass registers but definitely produce enough bass extension for my room and perhaps the floorstanders where a little over the top in this aspect.

That tweeter is probably one of the best I have heard in quite some time and is very well integrated.

All above comments where based on them playing CD and SACD.

My, apparent, problem appears to be when attempting to use my vinyl front-end with them. Isolation of turntable etc appeared fine with the floorstanders but using these speakers it is the first time I have ever seen significant woofer-wobble.

Hopefully further isolation of said speakers from turntable will cure this.

 

[davedotco]

Early Lifetime albums, Emergency and Turn it Over manage to combine some superb playing with all kinds of wierd 'hippy sh!t' (to quote the great c&w artist Hank Wangford). Hard to listen to as an album but some pieces are mesmerising.

I have, mostly, dismissed Cobham as jazz-rock 'flash' along with the likes of Herbie Hancock and Stanley Clarke. I find a lot of their more famous recordings to be like that, a lot of technique and ego and often not a lot else.

But this is the joy of Spotify, there are a number of less well known recordings where this is simply not the case and digging them out and playing them is a real pleasure. It may not be the ultimate in hi-fi sound quality but I could not imagine living without it these days.

Pottering around for an hour or two this morning, Total Eclipse and Crosswinds are the playlist...*i-m_so_happy*

I'd just like to add to Dave that having had a good session with the speakers I have found them quite amazing considering their stature. Whilst obviously putting on a very good performance with just about everything that I enjoy and particularly acoustic guitar, piano, and voice in general, they have a small weakness in my system.

The soundstage is quite amazing and very similar to my floorstanders. They do not go quite so low in the bass registers but definitely produce enough bass extension for my room and perhaps the floorstanders where a little over the top in this aspect.

That tweeter is probably one of the best I have heard in quite some time and is very well integrated.

All above comments where based on them playing CD and SACD.

My, apparent, problem appears to be when attempting to use my vinyl front-end with them. Isolation of turntable etc appeared fine with the floorstanders but using these speakers it is the first time I have ever seen significant woofer-wobble.

Hopefully further isolation of said speakers from turntable will cure this.

The excessive movement of the bass cone is a function of the noise (warp noise possibly) coinciding with the frequency where the loading on the speakers is at a minimum. Generally this is one (or more) octaves below the 'tuned' frequency of the driver/port.

I have to say when I saw the picture of your setup I was a little concerned about the way the turntable is supported on a fairly heavily loaded rack, but not knowing the details of your player or rack setup I could not be sure it was or would be an issue.

Heavy supports can take the modest noise generated by vinyl at low frequencies and allow it to 'feed back' from the speakers to the player, the more massive the support, the bigger the problem.

There are two fixes that I would suggest, firstly, improve the support for the player, something light and ridged will act as a mechanical high pass filter, removing the 'feedback' potential and, secondly, identifying the frequency at which the bass drivers become unloaded and getting a high pass filter into your phono stage to remove this issue. Since you have 'bespoke' amplification, I would speak to them about this.

As a practical first step, see if you can get your hands on a simple light but ridged table to place your player on, if that helps you can continue down that route. If it does not, think of filtering the phono stage.

 

[keeper of the quays]

Early Lifetime albums, Emergency and Turn it Over manage to combine some superb playing with all kinds of wierd 'hippy sh!t' (to quote the great c&w artist Hank Wangford). Hard to listen to as an album but some pieces are mesmerising.

I have, mostly, dismissed Cobham as jazz-rock 'flash' along with the likes of Herbie Hancock and Stanley Clarke. I find a lot of their more famous recordings to be like that, a lot of technique and ego and often not a lot else.

But this is the joy of Spotify, there are a number of less well known recordings where this is simply not the case and digging them out and playing them is a real pleasure. It may not be the ultimate in hi-fi sound quality but I could not imagine living without it these days.

Pottering around for an hour or two this morning, Total Eclipse and Crosswinds are the playlist...*i-m_so_happy*

In a few thoughtless words? You have just dismissed Stanley Clarke and Herbie Hancock! Lol..oh apart from some obscure recordings? Wow! And threw Cobham in for good measure too! Technique and ego! I watched a concert of the greatest bass players of our time..they were fab..but then Stanley Clarke came out and he was head and shoulders above the rest..it wasn't technique it was the feeling in the music he produced..these musicians get to a point where technique becomes secondary to expression..and it's only when they are true masters of their instrument this happens...try engaging your brain before you type..as you come across as a prize buffoon.

 

[davedotco]

Early Lifetime albums, Emergency and Turn it Over manage to combine some superb playing with all kinds of wierd 'hippy sh!t' (to quote the great c&w artist Hank Wangford). Hard to listen to as an album but some pieces are mesmerising.

I have, mostly, dismissed Cobham as jazz-rock 'flash' along with the likes of Herbie Hancock and Stanley Clarke. I find a lot of their more famous recordings to be like that, a lot of technique and ego and often not a lot else.

But this is the joy of Spotify, there are a number of less well known recordings where this is simply not the case and digging them out and playing them is a real pleasure. It may not be the ultimate in hi-fi sound quality but I could not imagine living without it these days.

Pottering around for an hour or two this morning, Total Eclipse and Crosswinds are the playlist...*i-m_so_happy*

In a few thoughtless words? You have just dismissed Stanley Clarke and Herbie Hancock! Lol..oh apart from some obscure recordings? Wow! And threw Cobham in for good measure too! Technique and ego! I watched a concert of the greatest bass players of our time..they were fab..but then Stanley Clarke came out and he was head and shoulders above the rest..it wasn't technique it was the feeling in the music he produced..these musicians get to a point where technique becomes secondary to expression..and it's only when they are true masters of their instrument this happens...try engaging your brain before you type..as you come across as a prize buffoon.

Forum etiquette and my recent decisions to avoid personal insults and arguments means that I shall not bother to trade insults, I am not going to report you, neither am I going to defend what I posted, you are not worth the time.

If anyone else wants to recommend recordings by these artists for me to try I would be delighted, as I intimated in my 'thoughtless' post, I am coming to these artists from a different perspective, having not enjoyed their music at the time I find myself really appreciating some of their 'ensemble' playing with other great artists.

 

[Al ears]

Early Lifetime albums, Emergency and Turn it Over manage to combine some superb playing with all kinds of wierd 'hippy sh!t' (to quote the great c&w artist Hank Wangford). Hard to listen to as an album but some pieces are mesmerising.

I have, mostly, dismissed Cobham as jazz-rock 'flash' along with the likes of Herbie Hancock and Stanley Clarke. I find a lot of their more famous recordings to be like that, a lot of technique and ego and often not a lot else.

But this is the joy of Spotify, there are a number of less well known recordings where this is simply not the case and digging them out and playing them is a real pleasure. It may not be the ultimate in hi-fi sound quality but I could not imagine living without it these days.

Pottering around for an hour or two this morning, Total Eclipse and Crosswinds are the playlist...*i-m_so_happy*

I'd just like to add to Dave that having had a good session with the speakers I have found them quite amazing considering their stature. Whilst obviously putting on a very good performance with just about everything that I enjoy and particularly acoustic guitar, piano, and voice in general, they have a small weakness in my system.

The soundstage is quite amazing and very similar to my floorstanders. They do not go quite so low in the bass registers but definitely produce enough bass extension for my room and perhaps the floorstanders where a little over the top in this aspect.

That tweeter is probably one of the best I have heard in quite some time and is very well integrated.

All above comments where based on them playing CD and SACD.

My, apparent, problem appears to be when attempting to use my vinyl front-end with them. Isolation of turntable etc appeared fine with the floorstanders but using these speakers it is the first time I have ever seen significant woofer-wobble.

Hopefully further isolation of said speakers from turntable will cure this.

The excessive movement of the bass cone is a function of the noise (warp noise possibly) coinciding with the frequency where the loading on the speakers is at a minimum. Generally this is one (or more) octaves below the 'tuned' frequency of the driver/port.

I have to say when I saw the picture of your setup I was a little concerned about the way the turntable is supported on a fairly heavily loaded rack, but not knowing the details of your player or rack setup I could not be sure it was or would be an issue.

Heavy supports can take the modest noise generated by vinyl at low frequencies and allow it to 'feed back' from the speakers to the player, the more massive the support, the bigger the problem.

There are two fixes that I would suggest, firstly, improve the support for the player, something light and ridged will act as a mechanical high pass filter, removing the 'feedback' potential and, secondly, identifying the frequency at which the bass drivers become unloaded and getting a high pass filter into your phono stage to remove this issue. Since you have 'bespoke' amplification, I would speak to them about this.

As a practical first step, see if you can get your hands on a simple light but ridged table to place your player on, if that helps you can continue down that route. If it does not, think of filtering the phono stage.

Many thanks for that and it's noted. I had figured on getting a wall shelf but the size and mass of the turntable prevent this.

I must say that I have had several speakers in the system with the same rack set-up and this is the first time this phenomenon has been apparent.

 

[CnoEvil]

What about an Auralex Gramma to put the TT on. I know that they are light and good for isolation, but I have no idea if they would help with a TT. They are fugly, but could be covered with black material.

It may be a terrible idea, but on the other hand, it may also be a brilliant one. *SCRATCH*

 

[davedotco]

This is primarily a turntable issue and explains why, back in the day, supports and positioning were considered vital. What is most likely occuring is that a resonance or subsonic noise 'spike' (this could be warp noise, cartridge/arm resonance or external factors) is co-inciding with the 'anti' resonance of the speaker/port.

Reflex loading is used as a way for the air in the enclosure and port to provide 'loading' on the bass cone around resonance but reduces loading on the bass cone at frequencies an octave or more below this frequency. With the use of turntables becoming quite rare, this is not an issue that gets much attention, though cone 'wobble' does show up on the forum from time to time.

This will not happen with sealed speakers and may well be inconsequential with another reflex design where the noise and the anti resonance do not match. Again it used to be quite normal for phono stages to be bandwidth limited to avoid this kind of an issue, remember even with speakers that do not react in this way, the amplifier is still wasting substantial power amplifying these frequencies that have no musical content whatsoever.

Personally I would look a filtering out this noise before it gets to the power amp stages, but this may require a change or modification of the phono stage.

 

[Al ears]

I will have a word with the designer on this matter and meanwhile try repositioning / isolating the turntable itself. Cheers Dave. As I said , apart from this minor niggle, brilliant speakers.

 

[davedotco]

I will have a word with the designer on this matter and meanwhile try repositioning / isolating the turntable itself. Cheers Dave. As I said , apart from this minor niggle, brilliant speakers.

Me airing this issue on the public forum.

This issue does crop up from time to time and raises all kind of issues.

For example, the SME arm is a medium to high mass arm and the use of an over compliant cartridge may lift the arm/cartridge resonance into frequencies that can cause trouble. It is quite hard to calculate as the data is not always available and mostly (in my time) it was a mixture of experience and 'try it and see'.

If you want to try the calculations, look here..

http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_database_tools.php

Similarly the 'unloading' of the bass driver at sub bass frequencies is well known but it will be a variable effect depending on the frequencies the energising noise.

One thing you could try, is to find a frequency sweep, either on disc or online and see if you can determine the frequency(s) that cause the problem. If it is low enough, a high pass filter should work well without having any real effect on the music.

 

[plastic penguin]

Well done Al and Dave. They sound wicked speakers. I'm envious. Hope Al can iron out the little nigglette.

 

[Al ears]

I will have a word with the designer on this matter and meanwhile try repositioning / isolating the turntable itself. Cheers Dave. As I said , apart from this minor niggle, brilliant speakers.

Me airing this issue on the public forum.

This issue does crop up from time to time and raises all kind of issues.

For example, the SME arm is a medium to high mass arm and the use of an over compliant cartridge may lift the arm/cartridge resonance into frequencies that can cause trouble. It is quite hard to calculate as the data is not always available and mostly (in my time) it was a mixture of experience and 'try it and see'.

If you want to try the calculations, look here..

http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_database_tools.php

Similarly the 'unloading' of the bass driver at sub bass frequencies is well known but it will be a variable effect depending on the frequencies the energising noise.

One thing you could try, is to find a frequency sweep, either on disc or online and see if you can determine the frequency(s) that cause the problem. If it is low enough, a high pass filter should work well without having any real effect on the music.

Thanks Dave. I have an arm / cartridge compliance table and my combo is acceptable if only just. Wish I hadn't broken my old Zyx cartridge.

The tonearm has an effective mass of 9.7g which I would consider to be medium.

I have a test disc with which I can do a frequency sweep. The arm cartridge will track all levels except the last 'torture' track on the HiFi News test LP. The high pass filter is indeed a possibility. Will also look into turntable positioning first to see if this rectifies the problem.

I just find it a bit weird that none of my previous speakers exhibited this, could it be down to a cross-over characteristic in the Red Rose speakers? Admitedly one of those speakers was sealed-box design and my Adagios have a front mounted transmission line 'slot'.

A new cartridge might also be a possibility. ;-)

P.S.. I don't mind at all you airing it here as it may be very educational to others as well as myself who has never, fortunately, encountered this problem before.

PPS. Just stuck on Eleanor McEvoy 'Out There' and Miles Davis 'Round about Midnight' SACDs and what can I say , stunning in the room sound. These speakers are quite a revelation.

 

[Al ears]

Well done Al and Dave. They sound wicked speakers. I'm envious. Hope Al can iron out the little nigglette.

Thanks PP. It's a minor niggle that can be overcome by the sound of it. I am sure some sort of filter can be incorporated by Tom Evans if that's what it takes, worth it definitely.

As I posted before maybe more forumees could employ this swap method to increase their listening pleasure.

 

[plastic penguin]

Well done Al and Dave. They sound wicked speakers. I'm envious. Hope Al can iron out the little nigglette.

As I posted before maybe more forumees could employ this swap method to increase their listening pleasure.

Nice sentiments, Al. Good theory but can't really see it taking off.

 

[Al ears]

Well done Al and Dave. They sound wicked speakers. I'm envious. Hope Al can iron out the little nigglette.

As I posted before maybe more forumees could employ this swap method to increase their listening pleasure.

Nice sentiments, Al. Good theory but can't really see it taking off.

Nor can I, just thought it a nice idea.

 

[davedotco]

Well done Al and Dave. They sound wicked speakers. I'm envious. Hope Al can iron out the little nigglette.

As I posted before maybe more forumees could employ this swap method to increase their listening pleasure.

Nice sentiments, Al. Good theory but can't really see it taking off.

Nor can I, just thought it a nice idea.

I am installing my new system today and this will give me a chance to go through some of my stuff. I will, at least have a small computer/desktop setup and maybe some other things too.

As far as this is concerned I shall post details when I have sorted and checked everything out.

Also, as I said, I am installing a brand new system, I shall start a thread detailing all this in the next day or two, depends how well it all goes.