First time nad owner

[gasolin]

I'm a first time nad owner

Based on this topic,thread i wanted more power more oophhh so a new amp with more power,more dynamic headroom,more bass heavy sound was something i wanted

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/how-much-power-do-i-actually-needrevisited

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0907/

And what many of us don't realize until we hear it, is that clean undistorted loud sound often does not sound that "loud." The key here is that in most or our home listening, there are small amounts of distortion caused by a lack of dynamic headroom (but more on that next month). It's the distortion that makes it sound "loud" in a domestic setting. To remove those distortions and increase dynamic headroom relates to even more power. We've become accustomed to accepting some distortion with our reproduced music, because all amplifier's distortion ratings gradually increase as they approach their output limits or slightly clip the audio signals. When that happens, we turn down the volume, because distortion starts to intrude on our listening pleasure, and it sounds "too loud."

The lesson in all this is that you can never have too much power, and that big amplifiers rarely damage speakers. Little amplifiers driven into clipping burn out speakers. In the scheme of high fidelity, that last barrier to realism is having enough power and being able to approximate real-life loudness levels.

Knew i could get get a nad c370/372 for 200£ but was hesitant to buy one, at some point i wanted to buy a preamp or a amp with preout so i could get me a powerfull amp with a heavy sound lots of control,dynamic headroom

Found a nad 312 close to where i live,it has only 25 watt rms in 8 ohm, max peak power in 8 ohm was 50 watt for 40£ very close to mint condition, had som scratches i could see at the back so i could deside if i want to buy it, (got it 9 hours ago), looked at the back and so nothing (or only very little,tiny scratches), payed for it and connected it to my pc, no sound, OMG it's not working, had my pc muted, finally sound, first of all more grunt more bottom/bass without having to use the tone controls, i wanted to get a bit more since some songs where a bit lite,thin with my marantz pm6005, i wanted a more full bodied sound,less thin and bright sound.

Playing toto,elton john and yello i immediately noticed more bottom/bass (which i know nad are known to have) nice, i finally had a more full bodied sound that wasn't a bit to the bright side, without using tone controls (mabye a bit more since songs could somtimes sound a bit thin with my old amp, that would make the sound even more to the brighte side).

Couldn't resist, neutral bass,treble and the volume all the way up 12 o'clock, although the amp only has 25watt rms and 50 watt peak power i was amazed, toto,elton jon (low recording level) no distrotion, yello no distortion, amazing, loud and clean sound all together with puncy,heavy bass, mabye it sounded like a bigger amp because of the high dynamic peak power of 3db, it just sounded so much more interesting,exiting, so much i wanted to have more power, atleast 100 watt.

No fattigue sound,lots of power, full bodied sound, almost mint sondition and low price, who can ask for more

What is you first time nad experience?

 

[ID.]

Not sure if I understand the post. You talk about the benefits of high power then describe your experiences with a low power NAD? If you think 25 watts sounds like 100 then I start to suspect other factors at play. NAD soft clipping? Something tuned to have a fuller sound that you craved? (Personally I always found the Marantz 600 series to sound surprisingly thin and brittle).

or have I just completely misunderstood the point of your post?

you should try Luxman next.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

glad you like the nad enjoy it

 

[gasolin]

Not sure if I understand the post. You talk about the benefits of high power then describe your experiences with a low power NAD? If you think 25 watts sounds like 100 then I start to suspect other factors at play. NAD soft clipping? Something tuned to have a fuller sound that you craved? (Personally I always found the Marantz 600 series to sound surprisingly thin and brittle).

or have I just completely misunderstood the point of your post?

you should try Luxman next.

I'm not saying it sounds like 100watt, i felt the sound was so good and surprisingly loud it made my want more, listen to some of the songs i which i could have atleast 100 "nad" watt or more, i looked at the soft clipping setting and it was to my surprise off. The nad 312 was an channce for me to get a cheap amp i later could use with a big power amp,in the mean time i could listen to the nad and get an idea of how the nad sound is and if should look for a bigger nad amp to get more power

Yes i got a fuller sound with the nad, i wanted to share my expereince with nad and wanted to hear others first time experience with nad, doesn't everybody at some point had a nad amp beause of the good sound,lot's of power and low price? Like the vw beetle or moris mini everbody had one,therefore everybody has some kind of expereince with it

 

[philpot1001]

this is very interesting for me.....just bought a 75W rated amp and ive been thinking it doesnt sound as "loud" as my 50W prior amp.....although it hasnt been clear cut, as when i really ramp it up its obviously very loud, just doesnt sound it!

My mrs is an EHO and has access to sound recording equipment to monitor noise levels, so im going to do a back to back with the new amp v's the old and accurately measure db level. Will report back, but im almost sure its an illusion and the new amp IS actually louder, and just has lower distortion effects.

 

[MeanandGreen]

I think a lot of the distortion is people's view of power vs volume.

If you have a 30W amp or a 50W amp or a 70W amp, it's more than likely most of your listening is below 1W of output.

The increase in power is only going to come into play at large peaks when you really are pushing it to the limit. Remember 3 db extra requires twice the power output. That's 3db how much louder do you think 3 db sounds?

The difference between a 50W amp and a 75W is about 1.5 db at maximum output. During regular use it isn't going to sound louder at all.

How often does anyone push an amp to it's limit sitting at home playing some tunes?

There is a website somewhere where you input your speaker data and room size and it tells you how much power you need for a given sound level in db at your listening position. I discovered that I use 2W at the most and that was giving me around about 90 db at my sofa.

Watts are numbers which sound impressive on paper you don't really need a lot in real life.

Also when you start taking input sensitivity into the equation a low powered amp could give the illusion of power early on and similarly a high powered amp could give the impression of lacking all depending on input sensitivity, speaker sensitivity and of course the quality (or lack of) from the source material.

Watts are a very vague spec to impress those who know no better.

 

[MeanandGreen]

To the OP I love NAD amps, I own 2 one in each of my systems. If you really want over 100W then the C370 is the ideal choice.

Or a C350 at 60W which delivers peaks of around 135W is also very good.

I have a C350 and a C326 BEE both at 60W and 50W and they both can peak at 100W. I've never had either amp near full output and have never needed to.

 

[philpot1001]

Also when you start taking input sensitivity into the equation a low powered amp could give the illusion of power early on and similarly a high powered amp could give the impression of lacking all depending on input sensitivity, speaker sensitivity and of course the quality (or lack of) from the source material.

again interesting, my old 50W Denon seems louder up until about 10 o'clock position then i think it pretty much levels out, maybe my new 75W Marantz is slightly louder, but its difficult to really say.....i used to listen with my Denon about 9-10 oclock position, with my new Marantz i typically listen about 10-11 o'clock position. Not that it really bothers me, just found it interesting. I guess it also depends how the manufacturer has graded the volume pot as i beleive some are different, and maybe not necessarily linear.

Also your comment about the 1 or 2W seen at the output answers a long standing question i had about speaker sensitivity ratings as i couldnt understand how something rated at 90 db/w/m was producing only circa 100 db when it was being pumped by something at 75W.....all becomes clear now! kind of

 

[gasolin]

Also when you start taking input sensitivity into the equation a low powered amp could give the illusion of power early on and similarly a high powered amp could give the impression of lacking all depending on input sensitivity, speaker sensitivity and of course the quality (or lack of) from the source material.

again interesting, my old 50W Denon seems louder up until about 10 o'clock position then i think it pretty much levels out, maybe my new 75W Marantz is slightly louder, but its difficult to really say.....i used to listen with my Denon about 9-10 oclock position, with my new Marantz i typically listen about 10-11 o'clock position. Not that it really bothers me, just found it interesting. I guess it also depends how the manufacturer has graded the volume pot as i beleive some are different, and maybe not necessarily linear.

Also your comment about the 1 or 2W seen at the output answers a long standing question i had about speaker sensitivity ratings as i couldnt understand how something rated at 90 db/w/m was producing only circa 100 db when it was being pumped by something at 75W.....all becomes clear now! kind of

It's the gain difference, like a turntable sounds more quiet then a cdplayer, try to play loud with a turntable and then switch to cd, i beet you get alot louder muisc but also alot of distortion, could be the same with to different amps OR the 50 watt amps distorts at 10o'clock (it most likely does at 10o'clcok) and beacuse of the distortion it sound louder then a bigger amp that might not distort with the volume also at 10o'clock

 

[gasolin]

I think a lot of the distortion is people's view of power vs volume.

If you have a 30W amp or a 50W amp or a 70W amp, it's more than likely most of your listening is below 1W of output.

The increase in power is only going to come into play at large peaks when you really are pushing it to the limit. Remember 3 db extra requires twice the power output. That's 3db how much louder do you think 3 db sounds?

The difference between a 50W amp and a 75W is about 1.5 db at maximum output. During regular use it isn't going to sound louder at all.

How often does anyone push an amp to it's limit sitting at home playing some tunes?

There is a website somewhere where you input your speaker data and room size and it tells you how much power you need for a given sound level in db at your listening position. I discovered that I use 2W at the most and that was giving me around about 90 db at my sofa.

Watts are numbers which sound impressive on paper you don't really need a lot in real life.

Also when you start taking input sensitivity into the equation a low powered amp could give the illusion of power early on and similarly a high powered amp could give the impression of lacking all depending on input sensitivity, speaker sensitivity and of course the quality (or lack of) from the source material.

Watts are a very vague spec to impress those who know no better.

Mabye because of the harmionic distortion peolpe say theres a difference in power using even small tube amps and that even a small 50 watt tube amp would be enough for most people,speakers

Might cost more but i don't se people recommending high powered tube amps in the same way they do with normal amps if someone needs,want more power, often tube amps below 100 watt is recommended not above

Mabye nad amp sound bigger then the "other´" amps because of more grunt, more bass,bottom without using the tone controls to achieve this sound charateristic and somtimes 3db or higher power peak, where other amps might sound thinner,brighter (very often when i read a review of nad amps i can understand why people who has cerwin vega speakers choose nad amps, it's not only because they can handle the load and are powerfull, but also because of the good bass)

The site is atm down because of heavy load, it's on crown website http://www.crownaudio.com/en-US/tools/calculators#amp_power_required

 

[philpot1001]

Also when you start taking input sensitivity into the equation a low powered amp could give the illusion of power early on and similarly a high powered amp could give the impression of lacking all depending on input sensitivity, speaker sensitivity and of course the quality (or lack of) from the source material.

again interesting, my old 50W Denon seems louder up until about 10 o'clock position then i think it pretty much levels out, maybe my new 75W Marantz is slightly louder, but its difficult to really say.....i used to listen with my Denon about 9-10 oclock position, with my new Marantz i typically listen about 10-11 o'clock position. Not that it really bothers me, just found it interesting. I guess it also depends how the manufacturer has graded the volume pot as i beleive some are different, and maybe not necessarily linear.

Also your comment about the 1 or 2W seen at the output answers a long standing question i had about speaker sensitivity ratings as i couldnt understand how something rated at 90 db/w/m was producing only circa 100 db when it was being pumped by something at 75W.....all becomes clear now! kind of

OR the 50 watt amps distorts at 10o'clock (it most likely does at 10o'clcok) and beacuse of the distortion it sound louder then a bigger amp that might not distort with the volume also at 10o'clock

certainly possible. Will be interesting to see what the noise monitoring equipment reads in terms of decibels, ill probably try it at 9 o'clock and 11 o'clock between the two amps and report back on a separate "volume" thread when i get around to it.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Also when you start taking input sensitivity into the equation a low powered amp could give the illusion of power early on and similarly a high powered amp could give the impression of lacking all depending on input sensitivity, speaker sensitivity and of course the quality (or lack of) from the source material.

again interesting, my old 50W Denon seems louder up until about 10 o'clock position then i think it pretty much levels out, maybe my new 75W Marantz is slightly louder, but its difficult to really say.....i used to listen with my Denon about 9-10 oclock position, with my new Marantz i typically listen about 10-11 o'clock position. Not that it really bothers me, just found it interesting. I guess it also depends how the manufacturer has graded the volume pot as i beleive some are different, and maybe not necessarily linear.

Also your comment about the 1 or 2W seen at the output answers a long standing question i had about speaker sensitivity ratings as i couldnt understand how something rated at 90 db/w/m was producing only circa 100 db when it was being pumped by something at 75W.....all becomes clear now! kind of

A lot of amps are almost full power by 11 oclock so its seems more powerful or loud.

Quality amp manufactuers dont do it that way and you can get full travel of the volume knob.

But it can seem as if its not powerful when you are not used to it.

 

[davedotco]

Brings up many factors that have been discussed many times but seem to need repeating.

Firstly measured spl and percieved loudness are not the same thing, not at all. Harmonic distortion is pivotal in this relationship as the ear interprets higher distortion as louder, even though the measured SPL is identical. Hence a 'better' amplifier smay ound less loud than a less good (higher distortion) amplifier even though it produces a higher measured spl.

Secondly manufacturers love to play tricks with input sensitivity and volume control, sensitive volume controls make amplifiers appear more powerful and most people fall for it, hence stupidly sensitive inputs and volume controls that are useless due to clipping beyond 11-12 o'clock.

Then there is the relationship between power and output level (volume), it is not linear but exponential so significant changes in output level require huge changes in power.

If you are actually using 2 watts average power (which is possible but rather high) then a good recording may have peaks 20dB above average, ie 200 watts peak.

Factor in a bit of 'headroom', say 6dB and you are talking 800 watts, crazy uhh...!

 

[MeanandGreen]

Brings up many factors that have been discussed many times but seem to need repeating.

Firstly measured spl and percieved loudness are not the same thing, not at all. Harmonic distortion is pivotal in this relationship as the ear interprets higher distortion as louder, even though the measured SPL is identical. Hence a 'better' amplifier smay ound less loud than a less good (higher distortion) amplifier even though it produces a higher measured spl.

Secondly manufacturers love to play tricks with input sensitivity and volume control, sensitive volume controls make amplifiers appear more powerful and most people fall for it, hence stupidly sensitive inputs and volume controls that are useless due to clipping beyond 11-12 o'clock.

Then there is the relationship between power and output level (volume), it is not linear but exponential so significant changes in output level require huge changes in power.

If you are actually using 2 watts average power (which is possible but rather high) then a good recording may have peaks 20dB above average, ie 200 watts peak.

Factor in a bit of 'headroom', say 6dB and you are talking 800 watts, crazy uhh...!

I think I should clarify that if the 2 watts example was taken from my comment earlier, that what I meant by using 2 watts at the most was actually 2 watt peaks not RMS. That is only on occasion too, I don't listen to music at those levels often.

 

[davedotco]

Brings up many factors that have been discussed many times but seem to need repeating.

Firstly measured spl and percieved loudness are not the same thing, not at all. Harmonic distortion is pivotal in this relationship as the ear interprets higher distortion as louder, even though the measured SPL is identical. Hence a 'better' amplifier smay ound less loud than a less good (higher distortion) amplifier even though it produces a higher measured spl.

Secondly manufacturers love to play tricks with input sensitivity and volume control, sensitive volume controls make amplifiers appear more powerful and most people fall for it, hence stupidly sensitive inputs and volume controls that are useless due to clipping beyond 11-12 o'clock.

Then there is the relationship between power and output level (volume), it is not linear but exponential so significant changes in output level require huge changes in power.

If you are actually using 2 watts average power (which is possible but rather high) then a good recording may have peaks 20dB above average, ie 200 watts peak.

Factor in a bit of 'headroom', say 6dB and you are talking 800 watts, crazy uhh...!

I think I should clarify that if the 2 watts example was taken from my comment earlier, that what I meant by using 2 watts at the most was actually 2 watt peaks not RMS. That is only on occasion too, I don't listen to music at those levels often.

However the principle stands, whatever the system, the power increases exponentially the moment you ask your system to do a little bit 'more'.

Not specific to any one person or system but, you may be using less sensitive speakers or turn up the volume a bit, add a touch of bass boost etc, etc, and your power requirements go through the roof.

 

[Vladimir]

Dave recently introduced to the forum the understanding of transient peaks being clipped by low power amps that otherwise do rather well with continuous power output when not pushed to hard. In a way this is similar to loudness compression in CDs. If applied a little bit it gives the impression of louder and more exciting sound, but if too much, it becomes horrible (I hope you all checked that BBC episode about loudness). Add the input sensitivity tricks that push you to turn it up to borderline clipping and you get 30W amps that sound amazing compared to 200W amps. Distortion also gives the impression of added loudness, which is why amplifier with a lot of power headroom sound relaxed and not so loud even when they are very very loud.

So yes, 30W can sound good and you may not even get the transients clipped if your speakers are efficient and your choice of music and SPL preference is reasonably low (especially if you are sitting close to the system). But things from there go exponentially fast into high wattage requirements. Just moving your chair few feet back and turning it up a bit and you end up needing 600W to get enough amplifier headroom without clipped transients.

 

[matthewpiano]

My first NAD was a 3130, and I had that when I was 18. Later, about 7 or 8 years ago now, I had a C325BEE. The upgrade and box swapping bugs grabbed hold of me, based on reading reviews mainly, and I moved away from NAD, dipping back with a C326BEE, and then stupidly moving away again. Now, I'm back with NAD and I've had my C316BEE for a couple of months now. It won't be going anywhere. I've still got my Brio-R in a cupboard, but absolutely no chance of it coming back. The NAD is so musically involving, just as my past NAD amps have been, and this time I'm wise enough to know when to stick.

 

[Electro]

All Nad amplifiers can deliver higher current than most comparable amplifiers, they produce real world power measured into real life loads so they preserve musical transients better than most, this is why they sound so good in comparison with the hyped up specs supplied by many other manufacturers .

http://www.manualslib.com/manual/108951/Nad-312.html?page=2#manual

 

[gasolin]

My first NAD was a 3130, and I had that when I was 18. Later, about 7 or 8 years ago now, I had a C325BEE. The upgrade and box swapping bugs grabbed hold of me, based on reading reviews mainly, and I moved away from NAD, dipping back with a C326BEE, and then stupidly moving away again. Now, I'm back with NAD and I've had my C316BEE for a couple of months now. It won't be going anywhere. I've still got my Brio-R in a cupboard, but absolutely no chance of it coming back. The NAD is so musically involving, just as my past NAD amps have been, and this time I'm wise enough to know when to stick.

Why 316BBE why not 326 or a one of the bigger models

How do we compare wattage? Nad 312 25/50 316 40/90 watt how is that in watt fra other brands

I remember the 315bbe or 316bbe having some trnsformer noise or hum anyone who remember which one?

AC/DC - Shoot To Thrill (Iron Man 2 Version) youtube, my nad 312 is almost to loud at 12 0'clock (ac/dc has to be loud)

 

[MeanandGreen]

The thing I like about NAD are the detailed measurements they provide. I own 2 NAD amplifiers in 2 different systems. A C350 in my office and a C326 BEE in my living room. I've also got a NAD Pp 2e phono stage connected to my C350.

Ever since buying my C350 in 2000 I was a NAD convert. I honestly don't think any other manufacturers amplifiers equate NAD performance on paper. NAD tell you the THD at RMS power across the whole audible frequency range with a real loudspeaker load. They also tell you what the amplifiers maximum continuous clipping power is which is a good indicator that the quoted RMS at the quoted THD is achievable and believable.

They tell you the peak power output available, something I don't see from anyone else. They build good power supplies into their amps, the impedance sensing circuits optimise output to suit the load connected. They give you useful facilities such as pre outs, by passable tone controls which are actually incredibly subtle in use anyway. Plenty of inputs, even sub outs. Excellent Headphone outputs, I could go on.

For me they give you all you could ask from an amplifier. An amplifier is the heart of your system. I've looked at the specs for much more expensive amplifiers and their spec generally isn't as good or as detailed.

I can listen to music with my NAD kit, rather than analysing the kit. I've not once pushed one of these amps into stress in almost 16 years of use. They play as loud or as delicate as I choose.

That is why I like NAD.

 

[Andrewjvt]

All Nad amplifiers  can deliver higher current  than most comparable amplifiers, they produce real world power measured into real life loads so they preserve musical transients better than most, this is why they sound so good in comparison with the hyped up specs supplied by many other manufacturers .

http://www.manualslib.com/manual/108951/Nad-312.html?page=2#manual

Totaly agree about nads power.
My old c270 power amp 120w in 8ohms easy out punched my old roksan kandy (120w into 8ohm) in the dynamic power department

 

[matthewpiano]

My first NAD was a 3130, and I had that when I was 18. Later, about 7 or 8 years ago now, I had a C325BEE. The upgrade and box swapping bugs grabbed hold of me, based on reading reviews mainly, and I moved away from NAD, dipping back with a C326BEE, and then stupidly moving away again. Now, I'm back with NAD and I've had my C316BEE for a couple of months now. It won't be going anywhere. I've still got my Brio-R in a cupboard, but absolutely no chance of it coming back. The NAD is so musically involving, just as my past NAD amps have been, and this time I'm wise enough to know when to stick.

Why 316BBE why not 326 or a one of the bigger models

How do we compare wattage? Nad 312 25/50 316 40/90 watt how is that in watt fra other brands

I remember the 315bbe or 316bbe having some trnsformer noise or hum anyone who remember which one?

AC/DC - Shoot To Thrill (Iron Man 2 Version) youtube, my nad 312 is almost to loud at 12 0'clock (ac/dc has to be loud)

I went for the C316BEE for financial reasons, but I'd actually say it is a more satisfying amp than the C326BEE anyway. It doesn't draw attention to anything you could call a weakness, and just gets on with the job of involving you in the music. It's a cracking little amp. I recall the C315BEE having some humming issues reported when it was first released, but I think they were sorted out. Certainly my C316BEE has no extraneous noises at all and actually has much quieter backgrounds than the Rega Brio-R.

 

[gasolin]

All Nad amplifiers can deliver higher current than most comparable amplifiers, they produce real world power measured into real life loads so they preserve musical transients better than most, this is why they sound so good in comparison with the hyped up specs supplied by many other manufacturers .

http://www.manualslib.com/manual/108951/Nad-312.html?page=2#manual

As you can se from my signature i do own a nad 312, it just have some weak static noise,high pitched sound, changed a little connected to my mb instead of mybehringer uca 202.

I don't know why, but i'm actually considering a nad 316BEE although i can't upgrade from it since there is no preout.

I have no clue what makes this weak noise,high pitched sound, if i could fix it 100% i wouldn't consider a newer nad amp, only a nad power amp) i must admit i like the sound above marantz PM6005 i just have sold a few hours ago, it was to thin sounding but open,clear sound, with a thin bass it wasn't the fullbodied neutral sound i like that nad have and are very good for rock music like ac/dc (but still for those who like an open,clear sound the marantz is very good)

What about the hum from the small nad amps?

 

[knaithrover]

My Nad C320Bee has something you can't quantify in watts, ohms or £££'s...it has soul.

 

[gasolin]

My first NAD was a 3130, and I had that when I was 18. Later, about 7 or 8 years ago now, I had a C325BEE. The upgrade and box swapping bugs grabbed hold of me, based on reading reviews mainly, and I moved away from NAD, dipping back with a C326BEE, and then stupidly moving away again. Now, I'm back with NAD and I've had my C316BEE for a couple of months now. It won't be going anywhere. I've still got my Brio-R in a cupboard, but absolutely no chance of it coming back. The NAD is so musically involving, just as my past NAD amps have been, and this time I'm wise enough to know when to stick.

Why 316BBE why not 326 or a one of the bigger models

How do we compare wattage? Nad 312 25/50 316 40/90 watt how is that in watt fra other brands

I remember the 315bbe or 316bbe having some trnsformer noise or hum anyone who remember which one?

AC/DC - Shoot To Thrill (Iron Man 2 Version) youtube, my nad 312 is almost to loud at 12 0'clock (ac/dc has to be loud)

I went for the C316BEE for financial reasons, but I'd actually say it is a more satisfying amp than the C326BEE anyway. It doesn't draw attention to anything you could call a weakness, and just gets on with the job of involving you in the music. It's a cracking little amp. I recall the C315BEE having some humming issues reported when it was first released, but I think they were sorted out. Certainly my C316BEE has no extraneous noises at all and actually has much quieter backgrounds than the Rega Brio-R.

Are you hepokatti? http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=53138