Explain DACs to me please

[Gaz37]

I know what they are & (roughly) what they do, what I'm struggling with is why they vary in price from about £9 on amazon to several hundred quid for big name stuff.

How much do you need to spend on one for it to be better than the one already inside your CDP & wouldn't you get a better result by just buying a better CDP?

 

[stavvy]

I think a good reason for a stand alone dac is the flexibility it offers e.g.you can plug several devices in, cd player, streamer, blu ray, sky box, games console and benefit from the better dac for all your devices.

 

[andyjm]

I know what they are & (roughly) what they do, what I'm struggling with is why they vary in price from about £9 on amazon to several hundred quid for big name stuff.

How much do you need to spend on one for it to be better than the one already inside your CDP & wouldn't you get a better result by just buying a better CDP?

These days, electronics are damn near free. A good example is a Raspberry Pi, a fully functioning computer with power equivalent to a desktop computer of only a few years ago for less than £30.

Electronics scale well. The initial development costs are very high, but once the plant is up and running, the marginal production costs are very low. A simple example. Assume it costs £1,000,000 to develop a chip, and £1 each to produce. Sell 1 chip and you need to sell it for £1,000,001 to break even. Sell 1,000,000 chips and the selling price is now £1.

Same is true of hifi. If you are a small hifi firm with low volume, your costs get amortised over a small number of units. Lets say your DAC cost £1,000,000 to design. Sell 1000 DACs at £1000 or 100,000 DACs at £10. Same DAC, same quality, just reaping the benefits of economies of scale.

So, the main reason for price variation in electronic devices these days is the volume of production. Fancy 'hifi' DACs may have an expensive aluminium case, but the innards are not that much different from a cheapy DAC for a 1/10 of the price.

Back to your question, a CDP is a good place for a DAC. From a cost perspective, you don't need an extra box, and from a hifi perspective you dont need to use a S/PDIF link which has a whole world of issues of its own.

 

[Covenanter]

I know what they are & (roughly) what they do, what I'm struggling with is why they vary in price from about £9 on amazon to several hundred quid for big name stuff.

How much do you need to spend on one for it to be better than the one already inside your CDP & wouldn't you get a better result by just buying a better CDP?

The expensive ones are status goods for people with more money than sense.

Chris

 

[Anderson]

My personal opinion with external DACS is that you pick one with the appropriate amount of inputs and features that suite your requirement. Many of the more expensive ones are pretty much digital preamps in that they take only digital ins, have a boiling control and will output to RCA or XLR they to me seem to be great value.

 

[bartwuster]

Cheap DAC for those who can't afford and expensive are DAC for those who are rich.

When you can't afford it, cheap ones will definitely sounds good to you, but if you are rich, the cheap ones will sounds unbearable to your ears.

 

[steve_1979]

Cheap DAC for those who can't afford and expensive are DAC for those who are rich.

When you can't afford it, cheap ones will definitely sounds good to you, but if you are rich, the cheap ones will sounds unbearable to your ears.

Rubbish.

 

[Anderson]

Cheap DAC for those who can't afford and expensive are DAC for those who are rich.

When you can't afford it, cheap ones will definitely sounds good to you, but if you are rich, the cheap ones will sounds unbearable to your ears.

Rubbish.

Ah come on now, he's pretty much spot on. He's not saying the expensive ones are better, he's saying if you have the money then you'll want the more expensive one because to that person more expensive = better.

Now. We both know in reality that you wouldn't be able to discern a difference between the cheap and expensive DAC in a blind listening test. All things being equal of course, the exception being that the more expensive on will usually have more features that you would want like multiple inputs and pre amp capability.

 

[drummerman]

Cheap DAC for those who can't afford and expensive are DAC for those who are rich.

When you can't afford it, cheap ones will definitely sounds good to you, but if you are rich, the cheap ones will sounds unbearable to your ears.

Rubbish.

Ah come on now, he's pretty much spot on. He's not saying the expensive ones are better, he's saying if you have the money then you'll want the more expensive one because to that person more expensive = better.

Now. We both know in reality that you wouldn't be able to discern a difference between the cheap and expensive DAC in a blind listening test. All things being equal of course, the exception being that the more expensive on will usually have more features that you would want like multiple inputs and pre amp capability.

... and therein lies the problem ... things are rarely equal. How the designer utilizes the DAC and how he implements the output stage can result in clearly discernable audible differences.

All DAC's do not sound the same but if you want one of the best measuring ones, one of ESS's Sabre ones should do the job nicely. - Even so, just because the chip is state of the art doesn't mean you necesserely like what the engineer did with it ...

 

[Anderson]

Cheap DAC for those who can't afford and expensive are DAC for those who are rich.

When you can't afford it, cheap ones will definitely sounds good to you, but if you are rich, the cheap ones will sounds unbearable to your ears.

Rubbish.

Ah come on now, he's pretty much spot on. He's not saying the expensive ones are better, he's saying if you have the money then you'll want the more expensive one because to that person more expensive = better.

Now. We both know in reality that you wouldn't be able to discern a difference between the cheap and expensive DAC in a blind listening test. All things being equal of course, the exception being that the more expensive on will usually have more features that you would want like multiple inputs and pre amp capability.

... and therein lies the problem ... things are rarely equal. How the designer utilizes the DAC and how he implements the output stage can result in clearly discernable audible differences.

All DAC's do not sound the same but if you want one of the best measuring ones, one of ESS's Sabre ones should do the job nicely. - Even so, just because the chip is state of the art doesn't mean you necesserely like what the engineer did with it ...

I think I'm a hifi peasant in terms of the electronics I just don't believe the engineer boys and girls are dumb enough to f#%k up established designs so much that they sound terrible. If you look at nearly any DAC review that's done measurements of the output you'll find most measure completely flat regardless of price. I'll take your point on some outputs being hot to make it louder which can overload a sensitive input and cause clipping but if you're doing your homework on the product your buying you should be good.

On a related note, I'm using HDMI for my inputs into an AVR, can a digital input be cooked to hot as to cause clipping? I imagine no? I'm not sure though any thoughts?

 

[Covenanter]

The mathematics and hence the engineering of converting digital to analogue was worked out completely many years ago, certainly before I did my Electronics degree and that was 44 years ago. Obviously you can implement things badly and you can use poor components but any half-decent engineer could build a D/A circuit that will work perfectly within the limits of what the human ear can discern. (To get a perfect reconstruction of the analogue signal you need a "perfect" filter circuit. There is no such thing so there will always be some artefacts remaining from the A/D D/A conversions. However they can be made so small that they are inaudible.)

The most amusing "blind" DAC test I have read about was when they compared a particular DAC with itself, the reviewers thinking they were comparing two different devices. They voted 5 to 1 in favour of the second one they heard.

Chris

 

[abacus]

A cheap DAC with a good design of its associated components. will usually sound better than a top DAC with poorly designed associated components.

The more expensive DACs tend to have less inconsistencies than cheaper DACs, so its easier to design an excellent sound output.

HI Fi manufacturers usually design their products to have a characteristic sound (Naim Sound, Roksan Sound etc.) rather than neutral, with so called refinements added with increases in price.

If you go for a pro DAC (Can be picked up from any professional music store) you will will get a top notch DAC for a fraction of the cost that Hi Fi manufactures charge you. (It will also be a neutral sound with nothing added or taken away)

Hope this helps

Bill

 

[drummerman]

Cheap DAC for those who can't afford and expensive are DAC for those who are rich.

When you can't afford it, cheap ones will definitely sounds good to you, but if you are rich, the cheap ones will sounds unbearable to your ears.

Rubbish.

Ah come on now, he's pretty much spot on. He's not saying the expensive ones are better, he's saying if you have the money then you'll want the more expensive one because to that person more expensive = better.

Now. We both know in reality that you wouldn't be able to discern a difference between the cheap and expensive DAC in a blind listening test. All things being equal of course, the exception being that the more expensive on will usually have more features that you would want like multiple inputs and pre amp capability.

... and therein lies the problem ... things are rarely equal. How the designer utilizes the DAC and how he implements the output stage can result in clearly discernable audible differences.

All DAC's do not sound the same but if you want one of the best measuring ones, one of ESS's Sabre ones should do the job nicely. - Even so, just because the chip is state of the art doesn't mean you necesserely like what the engineer did with it ...

I think I'm a hifi peasant in terms of the electronics I just don't believe the engineer boys and girls are dumb enough to f#%k up established designs so much that they sound terrible. ...

Oh but they do

'Terrible' they may not sound but below par of what is possible with a good chip certainly. Even Audiolab managed to engineer out some of the technically possible from their particular implementation of the Sabre in one of the DAC's/Cd player. It still gathered praise everywhere and in this particular instance it was probably not in the realm of the audible.

There are other examples of poorly engineered digital products with a multitude of sins, from jiitter (not necesseraly just digital) to channel imbalance and a reduction of the possible dynamic range of particular chips used.

As to Bill's comment on 'pro audio' ... there are probably just as many second rate products there (as well as very good ones). - It's a bit like saying all actives are better than an amplifier and passive speaker. I can assure you thats not the case. Agree though that a 'lesser' DAC chip implemented well can outperform a more expensive one which received less care in its designated product.

 

[Anderson]

Oh no they dont

OH YES THEY DO

 

[steve_1979]

Now I'm not saying that DAC's can't sound different because things like added DSP filters can chance the sound as can other factors such as a bodged design/implimentation or excessive RF interference which can effect some power amplifiers. However all properly implemented[/u] DAC's do sound the same no matter whether they cost $2 or $2,000.

 

[MickyBlue]

my answer triggered a truth sensor and got deleted, this is another reason i won't be returning to this ridiculus site!

 

[Anderson]

Excellent article and it backs up my they all sound the same you just pay for the features view. I likes it a lot!

You've earned a drink tonight son.

 

[matt49]

There are two separate questions that tend to get conflated.

1. is it possible for two competently designed DACs to measure differently?

2. is it possible for two competently designed DACs to sound different?

The answer to Q 1. is unambiguously: "yes".

The answer to Q 2. is: "possibly not, but the jury's still out".

FWIW I think when the jury finally delivers a verdict, it'll be "yes but no but yes but no but ...".

 

[steve_1979]

Excellent article and it backs up my they all sound the same you just pay for the features view. I likes it a lot!

You've earned a drink tonight son.

Yes it's a very interesting article. The tests are properly conducted too. Hifi mags could learn a thing or two from these guys about how to conduct listening tests and equipment comparisons.

 

[steve_1979]

I know what they are & (roughly) what they do, what I'm struggling with is why they vary in price from about £9 on amazon to several hundred quid for big name stuff.

How much do you need to spend on one for it to be better than the one already inside your CDP & wouldn't you get a better result by just buying a better CDP?

You may find this article interesting: Clicky

This review is a comparison of four DAC's (two hifi DAC's and two computer DAC's) ranging from $2 to $2000. There's a Benchmark DAC2, a JDS Labs ODAC, an Asus Xonar Essence STX soundcard, and the Realtek ALC889 audio chip which comes built in with some PC motherboards.

 

[Covenanter]

There are two separate questions that tend to get conflated.

1. is it possible for two competently designed DACs to measure differently?

2. is it possible for two competently designed DACs to sound different?

The answer to Q 1. is unambiguously: "yes".

The answer to Q 2. is: "possibly not, but the jury's still out".

FWIW I think when the jury finally delivers a verdict, it'll be "yes but no but yes but no but ...".

I think you forgotquestion 3 which is:

Is it possible for hifi addicts to think DACs sound differently? To which they answer is Yes!

Chris

 

[bartwuster]

Cheap DAC for those who can't afford and expensive are DAC for those who are rich.

When you can't afford it, cheap ones will definitely sounds good to you, but if you are rich, the cheap ones will sounds unbearable to your ears.

Rubbish.

Ah come on now, he's pretty much spot on. He's not saying the expensive ones are better, he's saying if you have the money then you'll want the more expensive one because to that person more expensive = better.

Now. We both know in reality that you wouldn't be able to discern a difference between the cheap and expensive DAC in a blind listening test. All things being equal of course, the exception being that the more expensive on will usually have more features that you would want like multiple inputs and pre amp capability.

Thanks brother.

I can only assume that the comment "rubbish" only means that he/she can't afford to buy the expensive DAC, or he/she can't understand English well.

I thought I'm the minority here as English is not my first language.

 

[rainsoothe]

Excellent article and it backs up my they all sound the same you just pay for the features view. I likes it a lot!

You've earned a drink tonight son.

Yes it's a very interesting article. The tests are properly conducted too. Hifi mags could learn a thing or two from these guys about how to conduct listening tests and equipment comparisons.

So on the only good recording, the listener gets all the DACs right, then the testers repeat it till they get the result they wanna get. That's like me tossing coins till I get heads 3 times in a row, then saying coins only fall heads side up. I would replace "properly conducted" with "biased", but maybe I'm just paranoid.

My experience was (and still is) that a Musical Fidelity M1 DAC sounded completely uninvolving and sterile compared to the Naim Dac V1 I'm using (oh, and I was expecting theh difference to be really marginal). And I'm 100% sure I would be able to tell these two apart in any blind test anyone would come up with (assuming the source isn't all compressed stuff like modern pop recordings). Heck, I even prefer whatever DAC is in the Marantz CD6004 to the MF, my point is not that more expensive is necessarily better, but that they do sound noticeably different! But hey, if people can't hear any differences, good for them - less money spent on gear, more spent on music/vacations/etc.

The conclusion is, really, that people should listen for themselves, and only use tests or opinions as guidelines. Even if it is only placebo (which I think it isn't, but whatever) it shouldn't matter, because guess what - placebo works! If YOU think something makes you happyer or gives you more pleasure, then, eventually, it does!