Effect of cables on digital *quality*

[Anonymous]

Gort1951:

SNOREvante. You haven't seen my £50 USB cable, pre-launch you air strike at will.

I'm sure it's very nice. Well done.

 

[Anonymous]

idc:

I don't get this placebo argument. If a sugar pill reduces pain then it becomes a painkiller. If it is a placebo it will only work in some occasions.

That's an interesting point. The interesting thing is that the sugar pill is only effective as a pain killer if the patient is told it is a pain killer, whereas the pain killer would have an effect regardless. However, the real pain killer would have more of an effect if the patient were told it is a painkiller. An often forgotten aspect of placebo is that everything is subject to it, both genuine therapies and dummy controls within a trial. The purpose of trials, certainly in the traditional sense of evaluating a new drug, is to demonstrate an extra effect over and above the placebo component.

From a sound point of view, it is logical to assume that we all have an element of placebo in any perceived improvement in sound. This does not mean that improvement is not real. Firstly, it is real because we perceive it, and secondly it may be a mixture of measurably real and placebo. If you believe improvements from digital cables are a combination of measurable and placebo, then buy the best one you can afford. If you believe the benefit from digital cables is purely placebo, then get someone else to buy one for you and tell you it is the best one they could afford.

There is little point in arguing about it when we could be listening to music on our lovingly crafted systems.

[Edited for typo]

 

[RodhasGibson]

nodnarb4444:is it just me thats read this thread and did not get any ov it No you are not alone, But go along with Thiaman on this one.

 

[idc]

storsvante:idc:

Furthermore, not enough discussion has taken place on different cable types and how they can/can't differ. I personally think that USB and digital cables do differ as much as analogue cables.

I tried to give this some real context a couple of posts back... I think we disagree. ;-) Would be interested to hear if you can back up this theory of yours in any way. How about blind testing with your wife? Share the results!

The above was my last post of the night and was being typed and posted at the same time as yours. I had been on the sauce after a long day so there is a slight error which I have to correct. The above should say 'do not differ as much as analogue cables'. OOps, apologies. That is based purely on swapping around USB cables, I can't comment on other digital cables. But I agree with you and Tarquinh, I do not see how digital cables that are made to the correct standard can differ. But I will keep an opening for the other view when I upgrade the TV setup and enter the relms of HDMI, because I find it hard to dismiss the many who say there is a difference.

As to my general theory as to why differences can be heard, I offer it as a theory to be discussed, not as I have the solution. Again, I find it hard to dismiss those who say they can hear a difference. Two examples of why are bit rate comparison tests, so can spot the differences easily and get them right, some (including me) find it a lot harder. So could it not be the case that it is just the 'golden eared' ones who can tell the difference? Again, that is a theory, I have nothing but anecdotal evidence to back it up.

As for the wife, she is a 'golden eared' one. I was not going to bother with a blind USB test as I cannot hear a difference. But maybe she can, so I will and share the results. It may take a day or two as she is often 'busy' when it comes to hifi!

 

[Anonymous]

idc, I wouldn't bother imposing upon your poor wife, it's not worth it! Really, there's no possibility of there being any difference, so if people claim to hear a difference, it's entirely in their heads.

 

[idc]

All I need to do is say to her, sit here and listen to this whilst I cook dinner for a change.............. will bacon rolls be OK?

 

[aliEnRIK]

I believe one of the main reasons 'some' people 'hear' a difference between digital cables is because of JITTER ~

http://www.networkboy.net/hdjitter.shtml

So although ALL the information could pass through without any errors whatsoever, jitter could still effect what you see/hear

 

[Anonymous]

aliEnRIK:

I believe one of the main reasons 'some' people 'hear' a difference between digital cables is because of JITTER ~

http://www.networkboy.net/hdjitter.shtml

So although ALL the information could pass through without any errors whatsoever, jitter could still effect what you see/hear

Agreed. This is a theoretical possibility for high resolution digital video (eg 1080p HDTV), where the transfer rates are hundreds or thousands times those of just audio (even at 24bit/96kHz). Even so, computer networks have delivered similar speeds over ethernet into the mainstream for nearly 10 years. Such cables are about £1 online. So although I agree with you -- for video there is certainly a higher theoretical chance of ruining the signal with unsuitable cabling -- there is absolutely no reason why such cables would have to cost more than a few quid. The HiFi/cable manufacturers are not doing anything that the wider industry hasn't been doing for many years.

In addition, the descriptions often attributed to "better" cables -- deeper colours, better contrast, deeper bass, etc -- often make no sense. Signal loss if there ever was any would more likely lead to visual artefacts (blocks and pixelation, jerky movements) and pops and cracks in the sound. More like what you sometimes get with Freeview when there is poor reception.

I will shut up now. ;-)

 

[davydmx]

Wow.

I bought the Wireworld Ultraviolet USB cable(2 metre) recently.

It absolutely kicks butt in my system.

Brilliant.

 

[idc]

aliEnRIK:

I believe one of the main reasons 'some' people 'hear' a difference between digital cables is because of JITTER ~

http://www.networkboy.net/hdjitter.shtml

So although ALL the information could pass through without any errors whatsoever, jitter could still effect what you see/hear

Interesting article Rick. From my reading of it the only time a cable is going to cause problems is when there is a fault in its manufacturing, such as a cracked or oxidised solder or it does not meet the correct specification required. A test of different cables to measure their jitter would be even more interesting.

 

[SteveR750]

I'm pleased to report to my wallet that I simply cannot detect any differences in any of the digital links that I use. Isubscribe to the argument that just because you can hear it, doesn't mean it sounds any different, there is a huge amount of self kidology in lots of things where spending money is concerned, and we all now that hi fi is one of the most susceptible. Buit at the end of the day its all subject opinion and mildly interesting as a debate. If you can't test it and quantify or qualify the perception then that's all that it is.

 

[aliEnRIK]

idc:aliEnRIK:

I believe one of the main reasons 'some' people 'hear' a difference between digital cables is because of JITTER ~

http://www.networkboy.net/hdjitter.shtml

So although ALL the information could pass through without any errors whatsoever, jitter could still effect what you see/hear

Interesting article Rick. From my reading of it the only time a cable is going to cause problems is when there is a fault in its manufacturing, such as a cracked or oxidised solder or it does not meet the correct specification required. A test of different cables to measure their jitter would be even more interesting.

I has done some small research
http://community.whathifi.com/forums/280313/ShowThread.aspx#280313

 

[Anonymous]

I could not possibly buy in to the aurgument that one digital cable sounds better than the other, with bits you get all or nothing, much like a CD, if there is a scratch that the error checking cant deal with you get a jump or a skip.

if theres an error in the signal in a digital cable you get an interruption in the output. so for pictures that would mean missing pixels or mpeg break up. or for sound a sudden loss of sound. and for sound a if loss in character or tone in music is the result of not spending £50 on a usb/hdmi cable , then means that 10000`s of bits are not been transmitted properly in cheap cables. but as i said before digital is all or nothing so you would just get stuttered broken sound in all cases!. the biggest thing that makes a difference in digital sound is the DAC because that's were the sound comes from!

 

[davydmx]

heros rule:
I could not possibly buy in to the aurgument that one digital cable sounds better than the other, with bits you get all or nothing, much like a CD, if there is a scratch that the error checking cant deal with you get a jump or a skip.

if theres an error in the signal in a digital cable you get an interruption in the output. so for pictures that would mean missing pixels or mpeg break up. or for sound a sudden loss of sound. and for sound a if loss in character or tone in music is the result of not spending £50 on a usb/hdmi cable , then means that 10000`s of bits are not been transmitted properly in cheap cables. but as i said before digital is all or nothing so you would just get stuttered broken sound in all cases!. the biggest thing that makes a difference in digital sound is the DAC because that's were the sound comes from!

In that case then, don't try the Wireworld usb cable - it could put your head into a spin...

 

[Anonymous]

Well, I'm off for a spell in the real world., this has become silly. Ciao.

 

[Andrew Everard]

davydmx: In that case then, don't try the Wireworld usb cable - it could put your head into a spin...

If you're not actually advertising this cable, davydmx, you're doing a very good impersonation of someone who is...

 

[davydmx]

Hi Andrew.

Is that how i'm coming across? Oh...

Can assure you, i'm regular member of the public!!(who doesn't always have much clue, so depends on mag review!)

Well pleased with how my hi-fi is starting to sound!

 

[Gort1951]

Just want to say that I never really paid £50 for a 1M USB cable.

I'm not brain-washed with hype and specs.

I have an 1.5 M hdmi cable that I paid £2 for, my mate has an 1M £85 hdmi cable.

I switched his cable for mine, no difference with audio and video.
(I haven't even told him yet)

davydmx - I suppose you sell 1M £35 optical cables as well.

 

[Andrew Everard]

Gort1951:I bought a £50 USB cable after reading a 5 star review.

Gort1951:Just want to say that I never really paid £50 for a 1M USB cable.

Are all your posts as misleading and fanciful?

 

[chebby]

Gort1951:I have an 1.5 M hdmi cable that I paid £2 for, my mate has an 1M £85 hdmi cable.
I switched his cable for mine, no difference with audio and video.
(I haven't even told him yet)

So you have effectively 'stolen' an item of his system worth £85?

 

[Gerrardasnails]

chebby:Gort1951:I have an 1.5 M hdmi cable that I paid £2 for, my mate has an 1M £85 hdmi cable.
I switched his cable for mine, no difference with audio and video.

So you have effectively 'stolen' an item of his system worth £85?

58 year old thief who buys £50 usb cables but not really. This is getting ridiculous.

 

[Anonymous]

Are we absolutely sure those were sugar pills?

 

[davydmx]

I have NO problem admitting to being influenced by WHF mags reviews of stuff. I reckon you could be influenced by a lot worse!

Basically, i put my current system together in the last 18mths or so. I've kinda been enjoying how it sounds, But it WAS bright and too lean or light in the bass.

Well, this latest purchase of mine(the usb cable) has,if not solved, then noticeably improved the 'situation'. The bass is fuller and deeper, the treble's really noticeably smoother and POSSIBLY timing's improved also.

I'm quite chuffed! I was beginning to think i'd bought wrong kit(i may yet change the Moodlab dac for a Dacmagic..)

So, with all this in mind, it just suprises me that many on this forum think digital cables do NOTHING.

It IS a funny old world...

 

[Anonymous]

This is the last thing Im gona say about this, If a £50 digital cable gives better performance than a £10 one then surly that could apply to other forms of information such as sending a text document or spreadsheet. So if a £10 cable is worse than your £50 one then we would get text documents and spread sheets with inaccuracy's on cheaper cables but we don't! .documents and videos are sent all over the world though ancient phone lines to high speed Ethernet cables and guess what! there the same going in as they are going out! to a computer there is NO difference between a video and a text file there just bits that get processed.

 

[aliEnRIK]

heros rule:
This is the last thing Im gona say about this, If a £50 digital cable gives better performance than a £10 one then surly that could apply to other forms of information such as sending a text document or spreadsheet. So if a £10 cable is worse than your £50 one then we would get text documents and spread sheets with inaccuracy's on cheaper cables but we don't! .documents and videos are sent all over the world though ancient phone lines to high speed Ethernet cables and guess what! there the same going in as they are going out! to a computer there is NO difference between a video and a text file there just bits that get processed.

Oh well

Id better put my cables up on ebay then..............