DTS HD MASTER AUDIO vs DOLBY TRUE HD

[professorhat]

Sorreltiger:The trend towards DTS Master discs is explained more by the need to include what is sometimes called a 'legacy' soundtrack for folks without the capacity to play the HD one.
This is completely separate on a Dolby TrueHD disc, so that both soundtracks take up a lot of space. DTS Master works with a common core soundtrack (DTS) and the HD material on an extension, thus taking up less space on the disk.

Interesting - I always assumed TrueHD worked in the same way as DTS i.e. the Dolby Digital soundtrack could be extracted from the TrueHD soundtrack, but looking at the details on the Dolby website there's no reference to this (but clear reference on DTS's website to the 'core' DTS track in a DTS-MA soundtrack).

This therefore makes a lot more sense as to why DTS-MA is becoming more popular. Though reading an article elsewhere, according to Sony, "the move to DTS-HD Master Audio was one of consumer preference measured by an internet poll" (would provide a link but I think the site contravenes house rules). Which goes back to the old "DTS is better" thinking which seems to be proving itself in this thread...

 

[Anonymous]

Andy Kerr:
But to reiterate the point at hand, ValianTX, how do you know that for certain? I'm not for one moment disputing that you're hearing a difference between discs, or in any way attempting to be rude: what I'm trying to suggest is that the differences you're hearing might not necessarily be entirely due to the audio codec you're using. They could be down to the skill of the sound designers involved.

Here's a great example: The Dark Knight. Now that's in Dolby TrueHD. Surely you don't think that sounds muted, do you?

Yes, I agree that the Dark Knight sounds brilliant in Tru-HD. I
guess your argument that it could be down to the skill of the sound
designers/engineers may hold water too, considering that Transformers 1
in Tru-HD does sound muted compared to Transformers 2 in DTS-HD Mstr
that sounds so much superior. Do you agree with this observation?

And no, I wasn't being rude....just ignorant

 

[professorhat]

Think it's also worth pointing out at this point, in no way am I pro-Dolby and anti-DTS, it's just in the case of hi-def formats, I really don't think there's much of a difference (if any) and the quality of the actual soundtrack mix is of far higher importance. Hence why you see bad DTS HD-MA soundtracks and brilliant Dolby TrueHD soundtracks.

At any rate, as long as we see one of the formats on a disc (or uncompressed PCM), and not Dolby Digital, we've got a chance of having a fabulous aural experience and I'm happy!

 

[Anonymous]

professorhat:
Think it's also worth pointing out at this point, in no way am I pro-Dolby and anti-DTS, it's just in the case of hi-def formats, I really don't think there's much of a difference (if any) and the quality of the actual soundtrack mix is of far higher importance. Hence why you see bad DTS HD-MA soundtracks and brilliant Dolby TrueHD soundtracks.

At any rate, as long as we see one of the formats on a disc (or uncompressed PCM), and not Dolby Digital, we've got a chance of having a fabulous aural experience and I'm happy!

Ever the diplomat

 

[Frank Harvey]

ValianTX:I guess your argument that it could be down to the skill of the sound designers/engineers may hold water too, considering that Transformers 1 in Tru-HD does sound muted compared to Transformers 2 in DTS-HD Mstr that sounds so much superior. Do you agree with this observation?

The first Transformers wasn't mixed very well at all. This isn't representative of True HD, as proven by Transformers 2.

 

[Anonymous]

FrankHarveyHiFi:
ValianTX:I guess your argument that it could be down to the skill of the sound designers/engineers may hold water too, considering that Transformers 1 in Tru-HD does sound muted compared to Transformers 2 in DTS-HD Mstr that sounds so much superior. Do you agree with this observation?

The first Transformers wasn't mixed very well at all. This isn't representative of True HD, as proven by Transformers 2.

But it was a Tru-HD score, wasn't it?

 

[Frank Harvey]

Yes, both were.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

I came across an interesting article written a couple of years ago where comparisons were made between Lossless PCM v DTS Master Audio v Dolby True HD under controlled studio conditions at Dolby Laboratories and at DTS HQ.

I can post a link if WHF are happy for me to do so.

Thanks

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[aliEnRIK]

MUSICRAFT:

I came across an interesting article written a couple of years ago where comparisons were made between Lossless PCM v DTS Master Audio v Dolby True HD under controlled studio conditions at Dolby Laboratories and at DTS HQ.

I can post a link if WHF are happy for me to do so.

Thanks

Rick @ Musicraft

I'd certainly like to see that

*** EDIT ***

Ive just read it (Assuming its the same)

They claim they couldnt tell any difference at either factories between true PCM and the dolby and DTS formats

What I found of particular interest was they also claim that there was hardly anything between the hidef versions and the bog standard dolby and DTS ones either. As theyre clearly using state of the art equipment in a room designed to supress 'noise reflections' then id hazard a guess the reason behind that is because the decoders used are close to perfection.

My pre amp is a pretty good decoder, probably head and shoulders above most peoples on here, and is probably why I too cant tell 'that' much of a difference between dolby digital and dolby trueHD

Perhaps the reason behind people claiming DTS MASTER AUDIO is better is simply because their decoders arent perfect (Slight errors along the way), or perhaps due to dolby having a slightly offset db range compared to DTS (Forgets the exact name of it)

 

[Sliced Bread]

aliEnRIK:What I found of particular interest was they also claim that there was hardly anything between the hidef versions and the bog standard dolby and DTS ones either. As theyre clearly using state of the art equipment in a room designed to supress 'noise reflections' then id hazard a guess the reason behind that is because the decoders used are close to perfection.

My pre amp is a pretty good decoder, probably head and shoulders above most peoples on here, and is probably why I too cant tell 'that' much of a difference between dolby digital and dolby trueHD

Perhaps the reason behind people claiming DTS MASTER AUDIO is better is simply because their decoders arent perfect (Slight errors along the way), or perhaps due to dolby having a slightly offset db range compared to DTS (Forgets the exact name of it)

My amp is not too shabby...not the best in the world, but not bad at all and I can clearly hear a difference between standard dolby digital/DTS and the HD sound formats. I can't comment on the differences between DTS-MA and Dolby True HD as I've never heard a film that uses both formats, however to be honest I'd be extremely surprised if their was a significant difference between the two.

 

[Anonymous]

I can certainly hear a difference between a well produced/mastered DTS-HD MA mix, and a well produced/mastered vanilla DTS mix. Differences between the HD audio formats ? Not so.

The real quality lies in the original studio production and mix. You could get some nasty 8-bit audio and encode it to DTS-HD MA, and it will still sound wack ! HD audio simply allows for bit-for-bit identical reproduction of the studio master, albeit DTS' version having a higher maximum (variable) bit-rate for BD (24.5 Mbit/s vs 18 Mbit/s). Maybe this is where the subtlety lies ?

If the format war had gone the other way, then we'd all be listening to Dolby True HD on our HD-DVD's. Imagine that !

 

[Anonymous]

I can easily tell the difference between Dolby Digital, True-HD and Mstr-HD. I think I can even do it blindfolded!

 

[Andrew Everard]

ValianTX:Yes, I agree that the Dark Knight sounds brilliant in Tru-HD. I
guess your argument that it could be down to the skill of the sound
designers/engineers may hold water too, considering that Transformers 1
in Tru-HD does sound muted compared to Transformers 2 in DTS-HD Mstr
that sounds so much superior. Do you agree with this observation?
And no, I wasn't being rude....just ignorant

Would you like to say that again while EvilWolf drinks a glass of water?

 

[Anonymous]

There seems to be an obvious common theme in this thread that Dolby True HD in some way sounds inferior to DTSHD-MA even though both are in theory lossless.

One thing that has not been mentioned is the frequent use of DialNorm (Dialogue Normalisation) and DRC (Dynamic Range Control) in the Dolby True HD encoding stage by studios which is embeded as a parameter in the TrueHD track. If your decoder/receiver is programmed to act on these flags then the sound will sound different to the original master track. A quick search on Google will give you hundreds of pages dedicated to the topic.

I have the Dark Knight Blu Ray and the soundtrack is indeed first class and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was encoded without the DialNorm and DRC parameters.

There is also DRC and DialNorm parameters in the DTS-HD spec, but it seems their use is far less common, hence the perceived better sound quality.

Lossless PCM has no such parameters, it is just pure and their are quite a few Blurays that contain both LPCM and Dolby TrueHD (UK release of 300 for example), so assuming the two tracks are from the same source you should be able to compare.

If you can disable DRC and DialNorm on your decoder/receiver then you should be hear the track as it was originally mastered in the studio.

I think most studios have now stopped using this stuff and there does seem to be a shift to DTSHD-MA even by Warner Bros, but a lot of early releases suffered this problem.

 

[Anonymous]

Andrew Everard:ValianTX:Yes, I agree that the Dark Knight sounds brilliant in Tru-HD. I
guess your argument that it could be down to the skill of the sound
designers/engineers may hold water too, considering that Transformers 1
in Tru-HD does sound muted compared to Transformers 2 in DTS-HD Mstr
that sounds so much superior. Do you agree with this observation?
And no, I wasn't being rude....just ignorant

Would you like to say that again while EvilWolf drinks a glass of water?

 

[Tom Moreno]

bendrummond:
There seems to be an obvious common theme in this thread that Dolby True HD in some way sounds inferior to DTSHD-MA even though both are in theory lossless.

One thing that has not been mentioned is the frequent use of DialNorm (Dialogue Normalisation) and DRC (Dynamic Range Control) in the Dolby True HD encoding stage by studios which is embeded as a parameter in the TrueHD track. If your decoder/receiver is programmed to act on these flags then the sound will sound different to the original master track. A quick search on Google will give you hundreds of pages dedicated to the topic.

I have the Dark Knight Blu Ray and the soundtrack is indeed first class and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was encoded without the DialNorm and DRC parameters.

There is also DRC and DialNorm parameters in the DTS-HD spec, but it seems their use is far less common, hence the perceived better sound quality.

Lossless PCM has no such parameters, it is just pure and their are quite a few Blurays that contain both LPCM and Dolby TrueHD (UK release of 300 for example), so assuming the two tracks are from the same source you should be able to compare.

If you can disable DRC and DialNorm on your decoder/receiver then you should be hear the track as it was originally mastered in the studio.

I think most studios have now stopped using this stuff and there does seem to be a shift to DTSHD-MA even by Warner Bros, but a lot of early releases suffered this problem.

This is an issue, one that was blatantly obvious when I fired up Transformers 1 on my system. Disappointing sounding to say the least. A quick search revealed that it was encoded with a faulty DRC flag. Ever since I have had all the DRC detection settings on my amp completely turned off (which made Transformers sound 10x better) but still feel that, generally, DTS-HD tracks have a slightly better sense of space and cohesion. Though I'm not 100% surprised by this because I feel that to a good set of ears there is a perceivable difference between uncompressed music and lossless codecs as well, so by the same rules of thought a lossless codec that packs data at a higher bitrate could give a slightly better result. Ultimately it'd be best if all BDs had LPCM tracks but if a lossless codec must be used I'd definitely prefer the DTS flavour.

 

[Andrew Everard]

ValianTX:

Just interesting that at 00.06 today EvilWolf posted

EvilWolf:Yes, I agree that the Dark Knight sounds brilliant in Tru-HD. I guess your argument that it could be down to the skill of the sound designers/engineers may hold water too, considering that Transformers 1 in Tru-HD does sound muted compared to Transformers 2 in DTS-HD Mstr that sounds so much superior. Do you agree with this observation?
And no, I wasn't being rude....just ignorant

Then almost immediately deleted the post. Four minutes later you posted

ValianTX:Yes, I agree that the Dark Knight sounds brilliant in Tru-HD. I guess your argument that it could be down to the skill of the sound designers/engineers may hold water too, considering that Transformers 1 in Tru-HD does sound muted compared to Transformers 2 in DTS-HD Mstr that sounds so much superior. Do you agree with this observation?
And no, I wasn't being rude....just ignorant

 

[Anonymous]

That sure is mysterious!

Must be a glitch in your system

 

[Andrew Everard]

Must be. Same IP address an' all. Who'd've thought it...?

 

[Anonymous]

EXACTLY!

 

[The_Lhc]

 

[Andrew Everard]

ValianTX:EXACTLY!

House rule 11) "Members should not register more than once, nor submit the same or similar posts to more than one area of the site. Duplicate registrations, threads or posts will be deleted."

So, which personality would you like to keep, and which delete? Or shall we enforce the rule strictly and kill both usernames? Let me know when you've had a think, there's a good chap...

 

[Anonymous]

They are both accurate - you can pop by anytime to verify that fact!

I'm the other half, btw.

 

[Deleted member 2457]

To start with all music blu rays seem to be done in Master audio and not dolby true high definition or at least the ones I buy?

Secondly master audio is better because it can get more power, I remember seeing a chart with it on.

Something like 24 something

while dolby true high definition could only get to 18 something.

Something like that.

While dolby digital was on 2

At dts was on 4.

and there as another one on about 6.

I will have to find this chart.

 

[Andrew Everard]

ValianTX:They are both accurate - you can pop by anytime to verify that fact!
I'm the other half, btw.

Hmmm... The jury is still out...