Dolby atmos upfiring speakers help needed

[nugget2014]

The Upfiring elac debut atmos speakers i will be getting for a home demo for a couple weeks but wanted to know how to set them up on the avr.

The distance setting used. Is it the distance them from me or the distance between them and the ceiling?

Between me and them it would be like 6.5ft away.

Do i have to be sat in a certain spot to get the best atmos sound or will the sound be good already in my seating area?

I would of thought depending on how far away the speakers are it might affect the sound if its bouncing off the ceiling and the sound could be most prominent 1-2 feet in front of me based on localised sound bouncing off the ceiling or is that not how it works?

As much as I'd like in ceiling speakers the installation cost and room itself does not allow as my ceiling fan is directly above me.

And i have to ask this. Would there be any big differences in how the atmos effects are presented with the two sets of speakers or would they just have different sound quality which is expected between two price ranges?

 

[f1only]

Hi nugget2014 in the settings on the amp you should at most only have to measure the distance from the speaker to the ceiling & then tell the amp you are using atmos speakers & run the auto setup with the supplied mic. Or just run the auto setup.

I've been down the route you are going but with the onkyo atmos speakers, it didn't work!! absolute tut, i now have 2 pairs of B&W 686 S2 speakers they are loads better working as Atmos & marry with the rest of my system beautifully. I would advise you at least audition some Dali Zensor 1's, especially if they are not rear ported (i dont think they are but could be wrong) they would match the rest of your speaker system & cheaper than the Elac Atmos speakers too. You just lay them on there back & raise what would be the top end of the speaker (if it was upright) by around an inch to an inch & half to get the angle for bouncing the sound off the ceiling ( I used the rubber wall standoffs that came with my B&W Speakers, works a treat). If they are rear ported i dont think they would be any good for Atmos duties.

Regards

 

[bigboss]

Normal speakers cannot be used for Atmos that way, especially if bouncing off the ceiling, according to Dolby Atmos white paper. Only higher frequencies can reflect sound, and the Atmos speakers have a high frequency notch.

It is interesting that it works for you!

 

[nugget2014]

Normal speakers cannot be used for Atmos that way, especially if bouncing off the ceiling, according to Dolby Atmos white paper. Only higher frequencies can reflect sound, and the Atmos speakers have a high frequency notch.

It is interesting that it works for you!

Can you confirm that its speaker to ceiling that the distance setting is?

 

[bigboss]

All measurements are speaker to mic distances. I don't have bounce speakers, I can't confirm, but I would imagine it'll be mic to ceiling (or would it be twice that, to include sound going from the speaker to the ceiling?).

Your ceiling fan may also affect the performance.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Normal speakers cannot be used for Atmos that way, especially if bouncing off the ceiling, according to Dolby Atmos white paper. Only higher frequencies can reflect sound, and the Atmos speakers have a high frequency notch.

It is interesting that it works for you!

So only HF bounces off the ceiling? Therefore you should only use speakers that produce HF?
I think you're getting the Atmos snake oil treatment there. I don't see why you can't just point a couple of cheap bookshelf speakers at the ceiling, let the ceiling sort out what does and does not bounce off it.
FWIW a lot of people have found Atmos ceiling bouncers to be rubbish. Either they don't work with a particular ceiling, or the ceiling is too high or too low, or you've got to be sat in precisely the right spot to hear anything at all.
Best of luck though.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Normal speakers cannot be used for Atmos that way, especially if bouncing off the ceiling, according to Dolby Atmos white paper. Only higher frequencies can reflect sound, and the Atmos speakers have a high frequency notch.

It is interesting that it works for you!

What about a normal style speaker mounted with a bracket on the ceiling facing downwards?

 

[bigboss]

Speakers in ceiling facing downwards can be any speakers as no reflection of sound is involved.

It's simple physics, not snake oil. If you place any speakers instead of Dolby Atmos speakers with notch filters, the sound from those speakers will first reach the listener(s) from where they are located. Then the reflected sound will reach the listener. That reflection will be spectrally distorted (because of speaker radiation patterns and acoustic properties of the reflecting boundary). After that late reflected sound will arrive. This will result in a very messed up sound instead of the intended use of Psychoacoustics to fool the brain into thinking that the sound is coming from the top.

Check this, for example:

http://www.hometoys.com/article/2016/03/your-guide-to-immersive-sound-atmos-auro-3d-and-dtsx/33747

"An alternative solution is to install Atmos-enabled speaker modules that can be placed on top of existing front channel and surround sound speakers. These modules are designed to bounce sound off a ceiling to create the illusion of in-ceiling speakers. This solution is easier to implement but isn’t as effective as true in-ceiling speakers. Modules do a decent job of tricking ears when it comes to high frequency sounds, but low frequency sound waves are much more difficult to direct and bounce in a controlled fashion."

 

[bigboss]

Speakers in ceiling facing downwards can be any speakers as no reflection of sound is involved.

It's simple physics, not snake oil. If you place any speakers instead of Dolby Atmos speakers with notch filters, the sound from those speakers will first reach the listener(s) from where they are located. Then the reflected sound will reach the listener. That reflection will be spectrally distorted (because of speaker radiation patterns and acoustic properties of the reflecting boundary). After that late reflected sound will arrive. This will result in a very messed up sound instead of the intended use of Psychoacoustics to fool the brain into thinking that the sound is coming from the top.

Check this, for example:

http://www.hometoys.com/article/2016/03/your-guide-to-immersive-sound-at...

"An alternative solution is to install Atmos-enabled speaker modules that can be placed on top of existing front channel and surround sound speakers. These modules are designed to bounce sound off a ceiling to create the illusion of in-ceiling speakers. This solution is easier to implement but isn’t as effective as true in-ceiling speakers. Modules do a decent job of tricking ears when it comes to high frequency sounds, but low frequency sound waves are much more difficult to direct and bounce in a controlled fashion."

 

[Andrewjvt]

Speakers in ceiling facing downwards can be any speakers as no reflection of sound is involved.

It's simple physics, not snake oil. If you place any speakers instead of Dolby Atmos speakers with notch filters, the sound from those speakers will first reach the listener(s) from where they are located. Then the reflected sound will reach the listener. That reflection will be spectrally distorted (because of speaker radiation patterns and acoustic properties of the reflecting boundary). After that late reflected sound will arrive. This will result in a very messed up sound instead of the intended use of Psychoacoustics to fool the brain into thinking that the sound is coming from the top.

Check this, for example:

http://www.hometoys.com/article/2016/03/your-guide-to-immersive-sound-at...

"An alternative solution is to install Atmos-enabled speaker modules that can be placed on top of existing front channel and surround sound speakers. These modules are designed to bounce sound off a ceiling to create the illusion of in-ceiling speakers. This solution is easier to implement but isn’t as effective as true in-ceiling speakers. Modules do a decent job of tricking ears when it comes to high frequency sounds, but low frequency sound waves are much more difficult to direct and bounce in a controlled fashion."

So then whats the difference between an ceiling speaker and a normal speaker 'in the ceiling' firing downwards?

Or are atmos speakers difference to normal ones? From what i very quickly skimmed you can use normal speakers mounted on the ceiling.
Thats what i thought. Unless you mis understood what i asked orginally.

 

[bigboss]

Both in-ceiling speakers and normal speakers mounted on the ceiling firing downwards are the same. Yes, you can use any full range speaker for this purpose.

Things are different only when the intention is to bounce sound off the ceiling.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Both in-ceiling speakers and normal speakers mounted on the ceiling firing downwards are the same. Yes, you can use any full range speaker for this purpose.

Things are different only when the intention is to bounce sound off the ceiling.

Good as i have oak beams that i can mount scm7s.
they are sealed so wont be a problem.
wont be for ages yet though

 

[nugget2014]

Just ordered the atmos speakers.

Would i have to toe my speakers in so they are bouncing off the ceiling straight at me or will they work the same without?

My left and right speakers are about 2ft to either side of me left or right so the sound would still reach me or would it be off to the sides and i wouldnt hear it?

 

[bigboss]

Just ordered the atmos speakers.

Would i have to toe my speakers in so they are bouncing off the ceiling straight at me or will they work the same without?

My left and right speakers are about 2ft to either side of me left or right so the sound would still reach me or would it be off to the sides and i wouldnt hear it?

Beat to experiment different positions.

This guide should help:

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/dolby-atmos-speaker-setup/5-1-2-setups.html

 

[bigboss]

Just ordered the atmos speakers.

Would i have to toe my speakers in so they are bouncing off the ceiling straight at me or will they work the same without?

My left and right speakers are about 2ft to either side of me left or right so the sound would still reach me or would it be off to the sides and i wouldnt hear it?

Beat to experiment different positions.

This guide should help:

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/dolby-atmos-speaker-setup/5-1-2-setups....

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Just ordered the atmos speakers.

Would i have to toe my speakers in so they are bouncing off the ceiling straight at me or will they work the same without?

My left and right speakers are about 2ft to either side of me left or right so the sound would still reach me or would it be off to the sides and i wouldnt hear it?

Beat to experiment different positions.

This guide should help:

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/dolby-atmos-speaker-setup/5-1-2-setups....

And once you've convinced yourself the resulting sound effects are rubbish, experiment with trying to get a refund.

I keep banging on about them but Klipsch RP-140SA units are designed to go on a wall where wall meets ceiling, if you can't mount in or on ceiling units.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how an afternoons woodwork and a pair of old bookshelf speakers bought on the internet could give the same result at a fraction of the price.

 

[nugget2014]

Just ordered the atmos speakers.

Would i have to toe my speakers in so they are bouncing off the ceiling straight at me or will they work the same without?

My left and right speakers are about 2ft to either side of me left or right so the sound would still reach me or would it be off to the sides and i wouldnt hear it?

Beat to experiment different positions.

This guide should help:

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/dolby-atmos-speaker-setup/5-1-2-setups....

And once you've convinced yourself the resulting sound effects are rubbish, experiment with trying to get a refund.

I keep banging on about them but Klipsch RP-140SA units are designed to go on a wall where wall meets ceiling, if you can't mount in or on ceiling units. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how an afternoons woodwork and a pair of old bookshelf speakers bought on the internet could give the same result at a fraction of the price.

i dont have to try and get a refund, i can take them back within 2 weeks for a refund no questions asked.

perks of being a recurring loyal shopper...

 

[Series1boy]

Normal speakers cannot be used for Atmos that way, especially if bouncing off the ceiling, according to Dolby Atmos white paper. Only higher frequencies can reflect sound, and the Atmos speakers have a high frequency notch.

It is interesting that it works for you!

normal speakers can be used for upfiring atmos, check out this link:

http://www.audioholics.com/frequent-questions/can-i-use-regular-speakers-as-dolby-atmos-upfiring

 

[nugget2014]

i could hear the effects well enough during only 1 scene i tried out at RS so i'm sure with a bit of level adjusting they could work well in my setup. well i am hoping so

 

[bigboss]

Normal speakers cannot be used for Atmos that way, especially if bouncing off the ceiling, according to Dolby Atmos white paper. Only higher frequencies can reflect sound, and the Atmos speakers have a high frequency notch.

It is interesting that it works for you!

normal speakers can be used for upfiring atmos, check out this link:

http://www.audioholics.com/frequent-questions/can-i-use-regular-speakers-as-dolby-atmos-upfiring

Yes I'm aware of that article where they've suggested setting the crossover frequency of 150Hz or higher. You can try if you want.

 

[f1only]

Well on my Pioneer amp in the settings it asked me to measure the distance from the speaker to the ceiling then to use the Pioneers automatic MCACC setup using the supplied mic, it then measures the total distance of the reflected sound, this has worked fine for me. Also as far as i'm aware it is best to always use the same make speakers for the best effects.

High & low frequencys bounce just to a different extent off differing meterials, i know this as i worked on a marine seismic oil & gas research vessel for around 10 years & we used sound reflected off the sea bed from explosions created by us using various explosive methods including dynamite, Nitro carbo nitrate & air guns running at 4,500 psi to determin what was down under the sea bed.

As far as the Speakers i am using, they definately work better than the Onkyo Atmos speakers i purchased ever did at £129.99 even though the B&W were £350 per pair so yes they are cheap crap i suppose, but do the job for me as they produce more HF & bass than the onkyo's could ever put out & controlled by the amp.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Glad to hear SOMEBODY has had luck with this approach....

 

[bigboss]

Well on my Pioneer amp in the settings it asked me to measure the distance from the speaker to the ceiling then to use the Pioneers automatic MCACC setup using the supplied mic, it then measures the total distance of the reflected sound, this has worked fine for me. Also as far as i'm aware it is best to always use the same make speakers for the best effects.

High & low frequencys bounce just to a different extent off differing meterials, i know this as i worked on a marine seismic oil & gas research vessel for around 10 years & we used sound reflected off the sea bed from explosions created by us using various explosive methods including dynamite, Nitro carbo nitrate & air guns running at 4,500 psi to determin what was down under the sea bed.

As far as the Speakers i am using, they definately work better than the Onkyo Atmos speakers i purchased ever did at £129.99 even though the B&W were £350 per pair so yes they are cheap crap i suppose, but do the job for me as they produce more HF & bass than the onkyo's could ever put out & controlled by the amp.

 

What crossover have you set those speakers at?

 

[ellisdj]

Not read the whole thread but if you can't have ceiling speakers better to install height speakers auro 3d style than bouncer style speakers

It may work a but it may not too many uncontrollable variables - that's no good for high performance audio. Imo it's very much gimmick

Can you imagine any commercial style venues employing this strategy.

I think ceiling speakers generally sound fake anyway but height speakers such as in auro actually add to the presentation.

I would go this way nugget

 

[bigboss]

You can actually employ height speakers in Atmos format.