Do you find BD technology mature?

[cutter74]

Actually, i've kinda posted my views about BD on another post (albeit irrelevant) post, so i'm starting a new one dedicated to this subject...

I'm surprised at how immature the BD technology in general is and how "rushed" the whole migration from DVD to BD seems to me. Let me explain:

I find it inexcusable that BD disk loading times have to be longer than a few seconds.

BD players take longer to power up and load their GUI than their counterpart DVD players.

Audio streams default to the lowest common denominator instead of the highest

The resume function is not supported by the vast majority of the BD disks. I mean, who thought that it's actually ok to have to start the disk from the beginning everytime you have hit the stop button?

By the way, does anyone know whether this is a disk authoring issue or something that can be addressed in the future by possible BD player firmware updates?

I'd love to hear your opinions about the above. Am I the only one finding that at least a couple of the issues described above are possible deal-breakers? (especially the lack of a resume function).

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, all the issues you have mentioned are irritating and bothersome. I'm sure all this will improve in time - blu-ray is still new technology in the UK.

In the meantime, I will just enjoy the MUCH better picture and sound quality from DVD.

 

[hammill]

cutter74:

Actually, i've kinda posted my views about BD on another post (albeit irrelevant) post, so i'm starting a new one dedicated to this subject...

I'm surprised at how immature the BD technology in general is and how "rushed" the whole migration from DVD to BD seems to me. Let me explain:

I find it inexcusable that BD disk loading times have to be longer than a few seconds.

BD players take longer to power up and load their GUI than their counterpart DVD players.

Audio streams default to the lowest common denominator instead of the highest

The resume function is not supported by the vast majority of the BD disks. I mean, who thought that it's actually ok to have to start the disk from the beginning everytime you have hit the stop button?

By the way, does anyone know whether this is a disk authoring issue or something that can be addressed in the future by possible BD player firmware updates?

I'd love to hear your opinions about the above. Am I the only one finding that at least a couple of the issues described above are possible deal-breakers? (especially the lack of a resume function).

I am with you. I have one of the fastest loaders there is and I still find it annoying. The resume issue on BD 2.0 discs is ludicrous, although some support bookmarks. With regard to sound formats, some DVDs have the same problem, where you specifically have to select the DTS soundtrack.

 

[professorhat]

cutter74:I find it inexcusable that BD disk loading times have to be longer than a few seconds.

BD players take longer to power up and load their GUI than their counterpart DVD players.

Well, that's what you get when they decided to use Java for the BD Live features. Whether you think it's an improvement or not is up to you, personally I'm undecided as yet. Some of the features are just silly whereas others are actually pretty good (like the Watchmen features for instance). To improve loading times, faster processors are required, but (a) that'll increase the cost and (b) it's the law of diminishing returns so I'm not sure you'll ever get a BD Live disc which loads in a couple of seconds I'm afraid.

cutter74:Audio streams default to the lowest common denominator instead of the highest

Agreed, though all the recent titles I've bought now default to the HD audio stream so it looks like the wind is changing on this one and it's only the early releases which will have this issue. This isn't a problem with the Blu-Ray format but the way the studios are authoring the discs.

cutter74:The resume function is not supported by the vast majority of the BD disks. I mean, who thought that it's actually ok to have to start the disk from the beginning everytime you have hit the stop button?

As far as I'm aware this is a disk authoring issue, so again, not really a Blu-Ray issue per se, but I do agree and I can't really understand the reasoning for omitting this feature (though have to admit, when I start watching a film, I watch it all the way to the end so it's not something that really bothers me).

 

[Anonymous]

I agree on the issues you mention, they make it feel like a rushed
product. Also because of limited content available, only now we're
seeing things catching up.

Garland Genoho:

In the meantime, I will just enjoy the MUCH better picture and sound quality from DVD.

Eh? Have you seen/heard a BD?

 

[Anonymous]

KevinOK:
I agree on the issues you mention, they make it feel like a rushed
product. Also because of limited content available, only now we're
seeing things catching up.

Garland Genoho:

In the meantime, I will just enjoy the MUCH better picture and sound quality from DVD.

Eh? Have you seen/heard a BD?

You obviously have no idea what blu-ray even means!

 

[Anonymous]

Garland Genoho:KevinOK:
I agree on the issues you mention, they make it feel like a rushed
product. Also because of limited content available, only now we're
seeing things catching up.

Garland Genoho:

In the meantime, I will just enjoy the MUCH better picture and sound quality from DVD.

Eh? Have you seen/heard a BD?

You obviously have no idea what blu-ray even means!

Obviously...

 

[hammill]

Garland Genoho:KevinOK:

I agree on the issues you mention, they make it feel like a rushed product. Also because of limited content available, only now we're seeing things catching up.

Garland Genoho:

In the meantime, I will just enjoy the MUCH better picture and sound quality from DVD.

Eh? Have you seen/heard a BD?

You obviously have no idea what blu-ray even means!

I think the problem is with your English. "I will just enjoy the MUCH better picture and sound quality from DVD" means that you think DVD is better than Blu-ray, I don't think you meant that.

 

[Anonymous]

TBH

I have a panasonic dvd upscaler and I find the load times about the same, even the sony one I have upstairs is not that fast.

I reckon from start-up to load they are about the same, but I have the far superior PS3... LOL

I think its anticepation of waiting to see something so good with surround sound, it just seems like a while.

It does not bother me and the PS3.

PS3 BRIGADE OVER AND OUT... lol

 

[Anonymous]

It is the firmware updates and problem discs that show it is not mature, they prevent a successful budget player being launched because of the amount of after sales support needed. Consumer goods are suppose to be plug and play not need updating.

That and the specification changes now with 3D blu-ray and HDMI 1.4. The original profile 1 players are now so out of date that even some major brand manufactures are nolonger supporting them.

When they can go for a year without a major blu-ray release requiring some players to have a firmware upgrade, and the blu-ray consortium not changing the blu-ray specification. It will be mature.

 

[nads]

as has been mentioned the whole way through the "war" HD DVD was a finished format while BD was still not finished and it still is not.

 

[Anonymous]

hammill:Garland Genoho:KevinOK:

I agree on the issues you mention, they make it feel like a rushed product. Also because of limited content available, only now we're seeing things catching up.

Garland Genoho:

In the meantime, I will just enjoy the MUCH better picture and sound quality from DVD.

Eh? Have you seen/heard a BD?

You obviously have no idea what blu-ray even means!

I think the problem is with your English. "I will just enjoy the MUCH better picture and sound quality from DVD" means that you think DVD is better than Blu-ray, I don't think you meant that.

Yes, I can see how that sounds, and yes, I meant blu-ray was far superior. Thank you for pointing it out, Hammill.

My bad KevinOK - apologies.

 

[Anonymous]

Ah, glad that's cleared up. No worries.

 

[Anonymous]

cutter74:Actually, i've kinda posted my views about BD on another post (albeit irrelevant) post, so i'm starting a new one dedicated to this subject...

I'm surprised at how immature the BD technology in general is and how "rushed" the whole migration from DVD to BD seems to me. Let me explain:

I find it inexcusable that BD disk loading times have to be longer than a few seconds.

BD players take longer to power up and load their GUI than their counterpart DVD players.

Audio streams default to the lowest common denominator instead of the highest

The resume function is not supported by the vast majority of the BD disks. I mean, who thought that it's actually ok to have to start the disk from the beginning everytime you have hit the stop button?

By the way, does anyone know whether this is a disk authoring issue or something that can be addressed in the future by possible BD player firmware updates?

I'd love to hear your opinions about the above. Am I the only one finding that at least a couple of the issues described above are possible deal-breakers? (especially the lack of a resume function).
they are all fair points , but because blu-ray discs look so stunning , i can quite happily live with their minor teething problems , the whole blu-ray phenomenon is so desirable that the format has been rushed to meet demand ...

otherwise we may have been still waiting for it to be perfected before it was released , not good for us buyers and certainly not good for the sellers ....

 

[Anonymous]

cutter74:
The resume function is not supported by the vast majority of the BD disks. I mean, who thought that it's actually ok to have to start the disk from the beginning everytime you have hit the stop button?

I'd love to hear your opinions about the above. Am I the only one finding that at least a couple of the issues described above are possible deal-breakers? (especially the lack of a resume function).

Why are you not use a pause button instead of stop button?

 

[ElectroMan]

maxflinn:
but because blu-ray discs look so stunning , i can quite happily live with their minor teething problems , the whole blu-ray phenomenon is so desirable that the format has been rushed to meet demand ...

otherwise we may have been still waiting for it to be perfected before it was released , not good for us buyers and certainly not good for the sellers ....

Er, demand created by Sony I assume, as before HD-DVD and BD there wasn't really a 'demand' from consumers for a new system that would mean buying a new TV and player!

I think the relatively slow uptake of Blu-ray shows how much demand there was.

And waiting for something to be perfected before release - how silly of consumers to expect to buy a finalized system.

And I suppose it's in response to great demand that 3D systems are about to be pushed so hard by the manufacturers ...

 

[Anonymous]

ElectroMan:maxflinn:
but because blu-ray discs look so stunning , i can quite happily live with their minor teething problems , the whole blu-ray phenomenon is so desirable that the format has been rushed to meet demand ...

otherwise we may have been still waiting for it to be perfected before it was released , not good for us buyers and certainly not good for the sellers ....

Er, demand created by Sony I assume, as before HD-DVD and BD there wasn't really a 'demand' from consumers for a new system that would mean buying a new TV and player!

I think the relatively slow uptake of Blu-ray shows how much demand there was.

And waiting for something to be perfected before release - how silly of consumers to expect to buy a finalized system.

And I suppose it's in response to great demand that 3D systems are about to be pushed so hard by the manufacturers ...

fair enough re. 3d , thats something that we may or may not come to appreciate , but yes , its not for our benefit , or desire , its about money ...

as far as blu-rays go , once hd tvs started rolling out , the demand for content was there ,however big or small , and to be fair , how many would give back their 1080p flatscreen tvs for big boxy crts ??

yes its more money for the usual suspects , but hd was always the way forward , 3d tv ?? i predict a very slow growth....

 

[Tom Moreno]

ElectroMan:maxflinn:
but because blu-ray discs look so stunning , i can quite happily live with their minor teething problems , the whole blu-ray phenomenon is so desirable that the format has been rushed to meet demand ...

otherwise we may have been still waiting for it to be perfected before it was released , not good for us buyers and certainly not good for the sellers ....

Er, demand created by Sony I assume, as before HD-DVD and BD there wasn't really a 'demand' from consumers for a new system that would mean buying a new TV and player!

I think the relatively slow uptake of Blu-ray shows how much demand there was.

And waiting for something to be perfected before release - how silly of consumers to expect to buy a finalized system.

And I suppose it's in response to great demand that 3D systems are about to be pushed so hard by the manufacturers ...

Hmmmnn... Don't know about that one. I don't think there was any sort of artificial demand, it was there in scores. Here in the UK HDTVs only really started rolling out a few years ago but in the US they've been selling heavily for 10 years or so. Over there they've been desperate for a way to watch movies on their great big HD tellys in native HD resolution for some time. The same actually goes for Australia. The Aussies have been right at the forefront of HD takeup and have quite a number of over-the-air HD channels that have been going for some time already. Blu-ray is extremely expensive over there for both players and discs and I couldn't believe how many people had it. Even my wife's parents who are extremely untechnological have a deck and several movies already. I think the attitude of it being thrust upon us so quickly is only here in Europe where the HD train seems to have arrived last for some unknown reason. I think HD-DVD was definitely a bit better flushed out as a format but was never going to win the format war without the majority support of the studios and conversely Blu-ray needed to be released at the same time as HD-DVD whether it was ready or not because if it didn't there wouldn't have been a format war at all.

 

[The_Lhc]

ElectroMan:I think the relatively slow uptake of Blu-ray shows how much demand there was.

Relative to what? I mean, do you have any supporting evidence for that statement?

I seem to recall Clare saying on a number of occasions that, compared to DVD at the same time after THAT was released, that Blu-Ray is actually doing better than DVD was at this point in its life.

And waiting for something to be perfected before release - how silly of consumers to expect to buy a finalized system.

When has that EVER happened though? Don't you remember people complaining about flipper discs and that terrible long pause you used to get during the layer change?

DVD wasn't perfect when it was released either.

 

[cutter74]

the_lhc:
Don't you remember people complaining about flipper discs and that terrible long pause you used to get during the layer change?

DVD wasn't perfect when it was released either.

You're right about both facts, but please remember that flipper disks were only a very minor fraction of the overall number of films ever released on DVD (even in the early days), and that there were technical reasons and real problems that imposed the delays during the layer change. What we're dealing with now is some (insert expletive here

) product manager's decision to author BDs in such a way that resume is not supported, period! No technical reasons whatsoever! Same goes for the decision to introduce java. If i want fine graphics on menus and java ffw and rew menus, I'll buy a PS3 game, thank you very much! All i want is to be able to enjoy my film.

I'll give you one more example. Do you Sony, Paramount etc want to keep your java menus and "dazzle" me? Fine, be my guest. Just give me an option, BEFORE loading all that garbage, a simple page with two choices: Full menu (where you wait for the java and BD live features to load), and a simple menu (DVD style) with sane loading times and resume functions supported. Is that too much to ask?

 

[ElectroMan]

the_lhc:
ElectroMan:I think the relatively slow uptake of Blu-ray shows how much demand there was.

Relative to what? I mean, do you have any supporting evidence for that statement?

I seem to recall Clare saying on a number of occasions that, compared to DVD at the same time after THAT was released, that Blu-Ray is actually doing better than DVD was at this point in its life.

And waiting for something to be perfected before release - how silly of consumers to expect to buy a finalized system.

When has that EVER happened though? Don't you remember people complaining about flipper discs and that terrible long pause you used to get during the layer change?

DVD wasn't perfect when it was released either.

Slow take-up?

Obviously, the 'credit crunch' hasn't helped, and at least with DVD you didn't need to upgrade your television to get the benefit!

So far as 'finalized systems' are concerned, well, yes, I think most people would expect something they buy to be 'finalized' - as DVD & Blu-ray etc are digital, it seems to mean people are more tolerant.

I mean, if your new washing machine didn't perform its spin cycle properly, would you be happy to be told there'll be an update for it in a few weeks' time?

I was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek in my post, but I do think the different versions of the Blu-ray standard (and HDMI) ought to have been avoided, there's already too much confusion around HD already. Sony were no doubt worried about HD-DVD getting a head start ...

 

[The_Lhc]

ElectroMan:the_lhc:
ElectroMan:I think the relatively slow uptake of Blu-ray shows how much demand there was.

Relative to what? I mean, do you have any supporting evidence for that statement?

I seem to recall Clare saying on a number of occasions that, compared to DVD at the same time after THAT was released, that Blu-Ray is actually doing better than DVD was at this point in its life.

Slow take-up?

With all respect that doesn't address the point I made, which was that, at the same point in their respective lifecycles, DVD was not doing as well as Blu-Ray is now. Blu-Ray might not be doing as well as Sony had hoped, but comparitively it's doing better than DVD was at this point after its release (as I understand it from Clare's previous reports on the subject).

 

[Anonymous]

I don't find Blu-Ray technology to be mature. I think that BD-Live is atrocious, ridiculously slow and unwieldy in its' use, and feebly appointed when it does work. I find load times for films appalling in comparison with DVD, as too with BD-Live, and find that my end-user experience in consequence is a poor one, having to sit around waiting for minutes at a time whilst BD-Live wheezes through it's software at an achingly slow rate. I do not like having to constantly go into the menu of the machine if I want to utilise seconday audio for things like PiP, and do not believe that the software interface is good enough for an all-round user experience. Nearly 4 years after launch (not including development time), it is my belief that this product is still not fit for market.

 

[hammill]

I did a few timings with my Oppo:

All timings started with disc draw open. DVD started using yellow button (instant start, skipping any menus)

Bourne Identity DVD 15 seconds to playing the movie. Resume supported.

Bourne Identity Blu-Ray (BD 2.0) 55 seconds to language select screen. 60 seconds from that to main menu plus selection time - well over 2 minutes. Resume not supported but has bookmarks.

Harry Potter Prisoner of Azkaban (BD 1,x this disc automatically starts) 32 seconds. To a resumed scene 27 seconds.

and the "winner" is:

Terminator 2 Skynet Edition. 40 seconds to location selection. 120 seconds from there to start the movie. N.B Time was independent of whether network was connected or BD 2.0 turned off. Resume not supported.

 

[Anonymous]

Ahh but if you rent dvds, some can disable the ability to skip, fast forward, or jump to the menu to make you sit through the adverts. I recently rented Gamer and went down stairs and made a cup of tea, and the adverts were still playing when I returned. I think in all there was the copyright warning and something like seven adverts before being allowed to watch the movie. Does blu-ray do away with this or does it also enable the disc makers to force adverts on you.

I have some old dvd flipper discs, and some where one side is the 16:9 anamorphic enhanced version and the other is the 4:3 pan and scan version of the film, they dont bother me. What does bother me slightly is the number of bonus features on some dvds, I do not mind a directors commentary and the film trailer, but hours of extras. You might say if you dont like the extras dont watch them which is fair enough if they are on a seperate disc, it is when they are eating up space on the main feature disc which could have been used to maximize picture quality that it is slightly annoying. Still I must be in the minority because superbit dvds were not very successful. When you compare the picture quality on the best dvds to the majority or some of the poor quality dvds, it is like looking at different formats. Hopefully blu-ray will make better efforts to maintain a high standard of transfers.

One thing that strikes me as odd with blu-ray given that dvd had anamorphic enhanced discs, is why on earth they did not have anamorphic enhanced 2.39:1 since it is used for most films and anamorphic enhanced 4:3 since it is used by many classic films. As it is everything that is not 16:9 records black bars instead of more resolution.