Do Streaming transport make better sense?

[Jasonovich]

Cambridge has a new Streaming DAC, below is possibly the first written review.
Not sure WHF reviewed this already, as it's a Cambridge product, one can expect the usual five star commendations from the boys and girls at WHF.
Apologies I'm just being a little facetious 😌

If I were to start from scratch, I think my approach would be different. I think there's no point having a separate DAC if you're thinking of purchasing Streaming DAC and if you already have a standalone DAC, why would you need a Streaming DAC? Surely a Streaming Transport would suffice?

They're aren't many Streaming Transport that doesn't cost you an arm and a leg, the Eversolo T8 looks mighty fine but isn't cheap.
If only WiiM would bring out their Streaming transport, this would open up a lot of possibilities.

I'd likely have it matched up with a high quality DAC possibly Denafrips Ares or one of the better ESS DACs.

There is so much overlapping in HiFi, there's amplifiers with integrated DACs, Streaming DACs and separate DACs. Headless chickens running into each other.

I think less of the premium Streaming DACs. I would like to see cheap and affordable Streaming Transport being released by major manufacturers.
Get rid of the unnecessary luggage, the built in DAC and focus on, designing a free from circuitry noise half decent Streaming Transport.

What are your thoughts?

Cambridge Audio EXN100 Review

In this review we check out the € 1.799 EUR Cambridge Audio EXN100, a feature rich streaming DAC! Find out everything on HFN!

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[Juzzie Wuzzie]

Cambridge Audio EXN100 review

What Hi-Fi? Awards 2024 winner. Extensive features, refined performance

www.whathifi.com

Reviewed it already?

If I was running an integrated amplifier with a DAC, then a pure streaming transport could have some appeal. But, as I've said elsewhere, if my system ever got a redesign, I'd be going all in one from Hegel, Lyngdorf, etc.

 

[matthewpianist]

I'm beginning to favour complete integration - streaming DAC and class D amplification, well implemented in a nicely made box with sufficient inputs to cover the use case, matched to an appropriate pair of speakers for the room. Half-decent room correction is a nice feature, but overall I don't see any benefit at all in going into silly money.

 

[Jasonovich]

Couple of comments there, it's the opposite direction to where I was going. I can see the sense in that, some people just want simplicity of all-in-one integration, that is; with Hifi quality graded components.

I suppose the market defines the trend and this is where the manufacturers apply their research and investment.

 

[Juzzie Wuzzie]

I think I'm also a believer that the streaming transport (i.e. digital out) makes no difference so I'm after good software for ease of use ... which makes the WiiM mini quite possibly the most ridiculous value proposition out there.

 

[Al ears]

I am, you might have noticed, really against the " dacs with everything " approach of some manufacturers.
If you have one decent one in your system be that in the amplifier or otherwise then use it.
The only reasons to require another would seem to be lack of required inputs or unable to handle certain file types.
What I cannot understand is why transports of all types seem to be more expensive than some players themselves.

 

[Jasonovich]

I think I'm also a believer that the streaming transport (i.e. digital out) makes no difference so I'm after good software for ease of use ... which makes the WiiM mini quite possibly the most ridiculous value proposition out there.

Without doubt the WiiM Mini is exceptional value.

I was thinking, better screen, better features, better noise isolation, better linear power supply, Full Metal Jacket, you know, Native DSD, high Res experience but without the crazy cost.
If it doesn't have a DAC then, some savings could be had, surely?

Yeah, we all know that's not true, for many manufacturers it's a reason to increase the cost, because they start adding the 'Mystique' vapour, which can be counterproductive, people will think Snake Oil.

This is where I was hoping brands like WiiM or maybe even Fosi or FiiO can come in with cost effective solutions and shake up the market.

 

[nopiano]

To me a streamer is a source device, just like a turntable, CD player, or the now historic FM tuner.

I can see why someone who likes swapping DACs might prefer a streamer that is DAC-less, just like a turntable buff likes to choose a cartridge. It’s about ones preferred flavour, or tonality, or seasoning - it depends on your perspective and preferences.

No DAC chip seems to cost more than a few $. The better power supplies, board layout and output circuits are doubtless more of a challenge to perfect. Where I struggle to understand the differences is what the relative costs are between the ‘transport’ and the DAC side. I’m increasingly starting to think that retail prices bear scant relationship to parts or development costs - it is simply a marketing positioning.

 

[RJW232]

My opinion (you don't have to agree): "Streaming transports" are snakeoil and leftovers from the CD era. And even than you could argue if a separate transport and DAC was the best option (the best sounding CD players I've heard in the past were always integrated players with a good analogue output.

The same with streaming transport and separate DACs. The digital signal is in the end a high frequency analogue signal with all problems associated with analogue signals. When you transport a high frequent analogue signal, capacity, inductance and termination impedance of the channel are very important. Within a device, the designer can control this completely. Once you make two separate devices there is no control anymore and you can start experimenting with cable to solve issues.

But of course if part of the hobby is searching for the best solution (and hopefully it is never found, otherwise it's the end of the hobby 🙂 ) than go ahead with separates.

 

[Hifiman]

I think there's no point having a separate DAC if you're thinking of purchasing Streaming DAC

…….. unless the DAC in the streamer is included at little extra cost. A WiiM Pro Plus or Ultra both have serviceable DACs included, so. what point would there be in spending more for a DACless transport instead? Also, if you subsequently had issues with your external DAC, you would have a fallback to tide you over.

 

[Jasonovich]

…….. unless the DAC in the streamer is included at little extra cost. A WiiM Pro Plus or Ultra both have serviceable DACs included, so. what point would there be in spending more for a DACless transport instead? Also, if you subsequently had issues with your external DAC, you would have a fallback to tide you over.

My WiiM Pro Plus outputs to my DAC, it's a capable streamer with a strap on DAC and excellent value.

What you said is valid point.
Not really saying they shouldn't make Streamers without DACs, it's about personal preferences.

I feel there should be baseline transport streamers, my angle is local storage than Spotify, streaming your local files than the internet.
When the time comes to upgrade your DAC, there's no need to change your streamer.

 

[Winter]

I have audiolab cdt 9000 + d9 dac . Audeze lcd xc . Balanced into senhieser hdvd 800 amp . Had wiim pro thought I would try wiim ultra on a 30 day return ok. Having played the ultra into the d9 via usb all I can san is wow ! No return . This sounds incredible I'm hearing stuff how's that hi fi term ? I've not heard before space / dynamics / resolution etc etc . So for me yes streamer dac . I gather in this case via usb the dac does the talking rather than streamer . All I will say some will disagree for sure this is my take works for me ok . Anyone with a decent dac and usb capable give it a go you just may be surprised ?

 

[Jasonovich]

I have audiolab cdt 9000 + d9 dac . Audeze lcd xc . Balanced into senhieser hdvd 800 amp . Had wiim pro thought I would try wiim ultra on a 30 day return ok. Having played the ultra into the d9 via usb all I can san is wow ! No return . This sounds incredible I'm hearing stuff how's that hi fi term ? I've not heard before space / dynamics / resolution etc etc . So for me yes streamer dac . I gather in this case via usb the dac does the talking rather than streamer . All I will say some will disagree for sure this is my take works for me ok . Anyone with a decent dac and usb capable give it a go you just may be surprised ?

Look at it this way, the best turntables are usually those without the phono stage built in with some exceptions.
Why can't we have the same for streamers, no built in DAC, the emphasis is on quality components, isolate the noise and good linear power supply. All this for a reasonable cost?
Yes there will always be a market for streamer DACs (also Amps with integrated DACs).

The Eversolo T8 is a good example of what can be achieved with a DACless streamer, we need more of the same but cheaper!

Come' on WiiM, FiiO, Fosi, do your magic. 🙂

 

[skinnypuppy71]

I purchased a SOTM neo 200 ultra streaming Transport a few weaks ago a x dem unit....I've previously used the Wiim ultra and pro plus....all I can say is the transport only approach brings a lovely lift to my system....sound stage width and depth was improved, the stop and start of notes etc, subtle things that may take a certain song or piece of music to be noticed.....I believe my Eversolo z8 is actually performing to a different level now....it sounds fantastic for what it cost, compared to the current "cool" chord and denafrips gear of the moment.....

 

[Al ears]

I purchased a SOTM neo 200 ultra streaming Transport a few weaks ago a x dem unit....I've previously used the Wiim ultra and pro plus....all I can say is the transport only approach brings a lovely lift to my system....sound stage width and depth was improved, the stop and start of notes etc, subtle things that may take a certain song or piece of music to be noticed.....I believe my Eversolo z8 is actually performing to a different level now....it sounds fantastic for what it cost, compared to the current "cool" chord and denafrips gear of the moment.....

I am guessing most improvement will be seen by the choice of DAC you add that transport to and not the components of the transport itself.

 

[skinnypuppy71]

I am guessing most improvement will be seen by the choice of DAC you add that transport to and not the components of the transport itself.

Well Al, I was using the Wiim ultra as the transport with the eversolo z8, so the SOtM has definitely brought something to the set up on it's own merit.....I haven't seen a bad review of the SOtM products yet, there's definitely something in the approach...like anything hi-fi, the rest of any system will need to be up to scratch to unravel and reveal the performance upgrades of a good streaming transport, the Wiim products are good at thier respective price points but they can be bettered, the Wiim ultra didn't sound that great with my Acoustic Energy ae1 active speakers when I had them, Add in the Mytec Brooklyn bridge and the Ae1's were singing.
Ultimately the Wiim ultra was starting to show it's limitations once partnered with products a level or two up the ladder.

 

[Al ears]

Well Al, I was using the Wiim ultra as the transport with the eversolo z8, so the SOtM has definitely brought something to the set up on it's own merit.....I haven't seen a bad review of the SOtM products yet, there's definitely something in the approach...like anything hi-fi, the rest of any system will need to be up to scratch to unravel and reveal the performance upgrades of a good streaming transport, the Wiim products are good at thier respective price points but they can be bettered, the Wiim ultra didn't sound that great with my Acoustic Energy ae1 active speakers when I had them, Add in the Mytec Brooklyn bridge and the Ae1's were singing.
Ultimately the Wiim ultra was starting to show it's limitations once partnered with products a level or two up the ladder.

Glad you got things sorted although still cannot comprehend why the transport itself, especially a digital one, would make such a noticeable improvement.

 

[skinnypuppy71]

SOTM's website information explaining a little about it's technology.

sMS-200ultra – SOtM – English

www.sotm-audio.com