Direct drive VS Belt Drive

[nopiano]

I was hoping there would be a review of the 1200G or 1200GR by now.........*sad*

We all know the WHF review would be three stars, four at a push. But if Panasonic had made it belt drive, built it from laminated chipboard and with a motor suspended on an elastic band, it would get five stars. Especially if Panasonic put the word "Rega" on the front instead of "Technics".

You old cynic, major! I think Technics is now cool again so it'll be five stars. There aren't any Linn turntables for £1300 to compare it with nowadays.

 

[Al ears]

I was hoping there would be a review of the 1200G or 1200GR by now.........*sad*

We all know the WHF review would be three stars, four at a push. But if Panasonic had made it belt drive, built it from laminated chipboard and with a motor suspended on an elastic band, it would get five stars. Especially if Panasonic put the word "Rega" on the front instead of "Technics".

You old cynic, major! I think Technics is now cool again so it'll be five stars. There aren't any Linn turntables for £1300 to compare it with nowadays.

We might have to wait for the GR as it's UK release date appear to be 1st April..... a bit of an ominous date to release new kit....

 

[MajorFubar]

I was hoping there would be a review of the 1200G or 1200GR by now.........*sad*

We all know the WHF review would be three stars, four at a push. But if Panasonic had made it belt drive, built it from laminated chipboard and with a motor suspended on an elastic band, it would get five stars. Especially if Panasonic put the word "Rega" on the front instead of "Technics".

You old cynic, major! I think Technics is now cool again so it'll be five stars. There aren't any Linn turntables for £1300 to compare it with nowadays.

Sorry I was feeling a bit wicked when I posted that, but many a truth said in jest.

 

[alchemist 1]

With Technics releasing new versions of the SL1200, including newly designed motors.

Can they now claim the advantage of direct drive over belt driven turntables ?

Wouldn't it be easier to dem the table?

Finding G version to demo in the West Midlands is proving difficult at present.

Due too low stock or only obtainable by ordering said deck........*sad*

 

[Al ears]

With Technics releasing new versions of the SL1200, including newly designed motors.

Can they now claim the advantage of direct drive over belt driven turntables ?

Wouldn't it be easier to dem the table?

Finding G version to demo in the West Midlands is proving difficult at present.

Due too low stock or only obtainable by ordering said deck........*sad*

If you want one go order. As I said it's mainly the cartridge you're listening to anyway.

 

[ifor]

but is Al over egging the pudding? The piece below is from here http://www.originlive.com/products/tonearms/origin-live-arms/what-s-in-a-better-arm.html
How can we quantify cartridge performance?
When it comes to upgrading an arm, we want to know the return on investment. One method of quantifying improvement is to look at the pricing of cartridges. Trials show that your cartridge performance can be increased to the level of one costing up to 70 times as much – the tonearm being the only difference. This claim is staggering but backed by a wealth of evidence.

For example, 25 years ago, when all serious audio systems were vinyl based, magazines went to great lengths establishing system hierarchy. One test took a cheap £20 AT95E cartridge, verses an expensive £500 cartridge. The only difference being the cheaper cartridge residing in a better tonearm. With utter astonishment, the £20 cartridge sounded significantly better than the £500 one! This translates to the cartridge performing at over 25 times it's value!

Another example of hierarchy is related by a German dealer hosting an evening for 40 clients. He compared a cheap £100 Denon 103 cartridge with a well respected £2500 cartridge. Again, the only difference being the cheaper cartridge in a better tonearm. Sure enough, the cheaper cartridge won by a jaw dropping extent.

It's worth mentioning that this wasn't a poor arm in the ring with a good arm. Rather it was the highly respected Origin Live Silver arm against the Conqueror tonearm - much higher in the range. For perspective, the lesser Silver arm, was reviewed as “probably the best arm in the world”, when it first entered the market in 2002. We are looking here at an extraordinarily good arm, versus an absolutely top flight arm. Furthermore, the “best arm” statement on the Silver (£600 at the time) was no wild statement made by a newbie reviewer, but a magazine editor with years of experience of SMEVs, Linn Ekos, Naim Aros, tri-planar, Grahams and a host of other high end arms.

 

[ifor]

I'm not saying Al is wrong; I'm just pointing out that there other opinions and this one is very different from his.[/b]

The piece below is from here http://www.originlive.com/system-philosophy-advice.html

There are many misconceptions that surround system hierarchy and formats. Around 80% of those who don't read Hi Fi magazines are under the impression that CD sounds better than Vinyl Records. Going deeper, when it comes to viny replay, many think a better cartridge is the route to better sound with the turntable not being so important. In reality a better deck and tonearm will enable a cheap cartridge to perform at the same level as an expensive cartridge costing up to 70 times as much.

Defining Questions

Before you invest in upgrading or renewing items it is helpful to ask a few questions.

• What is your final aspiration? - it is better to work in stages if you have a restricted budget. E.g. -acquire your chosen “best” turntable and then later order your “best” choice of arm. This is better than compromising with an “all in one package” Which components will yield the greatest rewards in performance? If saving is going to take a while, would a temporary budget component be a good solution?

Upgrade paths

Common questions on upgrade paths are:

“How much should I spend on a cartridge?”

“Is it worth rewiring a tonearm for a budget turntable?”

“Should I upgrade my current deck or change it entirely?”

“What level of performance does the dc drive upgrade add to my deck?”

Assessing upgrade priorities is not always easy. If you are using a vinyl front end, accepted wisdom is that you should split your total system value (in financial terms) roughly as follows.

Breakdown Examples of System components relative importance

The approximate contribution to performance of components within the source or “front end” of a system is shown below. Contribution does not necessarily equal price. For Simplicity we have not included accessories such as Mains Conditioners, Cables and Equipment supports which all contribute a surprisingly to overall sound quality.

Vinyl based Replay

Turntable 23%

Tonearm 18% The importance of the arm is explained in tonearm overview

Cartridge 5%

Phono Stage 25% The phono stage accounts for up to 95% of the total amplification in Vinyl based systems

Amplifiers 15%

Speakers 15%

 

[nopiano]

There is a lot of sense in those perspectives, ifor. I do disagree about the percentage for a phono stage though.

Simply adding a couple of zeroes to each percentage makes it quite easy to get real world prices. This would mean the recommend cartridge at £500 needs a £2500 step up, which imo is well wide of the mark.

And now having re-read it, they talk about contribution not price, so on reflection my point isn't well made....

 

[Al ears]

but is Al over egging the pudding? The piece below is from here http://www.originlive.com/products/tonearms/origin-live-arms/what-s-in-a...
How can we quantify cartridge performance?
When it comes to upgrading an arm, we want to know the return on investment. One method of quantifying improvement is to look at the pricing of cartridges. Trials show that your cartridge performance can be increased to the level of one costing up to 70 times as much – the tonearm being the only difference. This claim is staggering but backed by a wealth of evidence.

For example, 25 years ago, when all serious audio systems were vinyl based, magazines went to great lengths establishing system hierarchy. One test took a cheap £20 AT95E cartridge, verses an expensive £500 cartridge. The only difference being the cheaper cartridge residing in a better tonearm. With utter astonishment, the £20 cartridge sounded significantly better than the £500 one! This translates to the cartridge performing at over 25 times it's value!

Another example of hierarchy is related by a German dealer hosting an evening for 40 clients. He compared a cheap £100 Denon 103 cartridge with a well respected £2500 cartridge. Again, the only difference being the cheaper cartridge in a better tonearm. Sure enough, the cheaper cartridge won by a jaw dropping extent.

It's worth mentioning that this wasn't a poor arm in the ring with a good arm. Rather it was the highly respected Origin Live Silver arm against the Conqueror tonearm - much higher in the range. For perspective, the lesser Silver arm, was reviewed as “probably the best arm in the world”, when it first entered the market in 2002. We are looking here at an extraordinarily good arm, versus an absolutely top flight arm. Furthermore, the “best arm” statement on the Silver (£600 at the time) was no wild statement made by a newbie reviewer, but a magazine editor with years of experience of SMEVs, Linn Ekos, Naim Aros, tri-planar, Grahams and a host of other high end arms.

I am not over egging it just being realistic. I cannot see many people buying a £600 forearm then sticking a £20 cartridge on it. Likewise I agree a £600 cartridge on a £100 tonearm is going to do it much justice. It's all about balancing your budget and getting the best 'bang for your bucks'

 

[Al ears]

There is a lot of sense in those perspectives, ifor. I do disagree about the percentage for a phono stage though.

Simply adding a couple of zeroes to each percentage makes it quite easy to get real world prices. This would mean the recommend cartridge at £500 needs a £2500 step up, which imo is well wide of the mark.

And now having re-read it, they talk about contribution not price, so on reflection my point isn't well made....

I concur. Bonkers!

Cheaper cartridges are more than catered for, commonly, by the phono stage in your amplifier. If you bought sensibly that is. A step-up would only be needed if you had a low output Moving Coil cartridge.

 

[ifor]

... is not about price, as nopiano realised after rereading the piece, but about contribution. Interestingly the cartridge is considered way, way less important than any of the other components, which is the complete opposite to what Al bangs on about.

Turntable 23%

Tonearm 18%

Cartridge 5%

Phono Stage 25%

Amplifiers 15%

Speakers 15%

There are other opinions and this is the opinion of Mark Baker, of Origin Live, a very well respected guy in the analogue world.

 

[Freddy58]

... is not about price, as nopiano realised after rereading the piece, but about contribution. Interestingly the cartridge is considered way, way less important than any of the other components, which is the complete opposite to what Al bangs on about.

Turntable 23%

Tonearm 18%

Cartridge 5%

Phono Stage 25%

Amplifiers 15%

Speakers 15%

There are other opinions and this is the opinion of Mark Baker, of Origin Live, a very well respected guy in the analogue world.

Add up the percentages *biggrin*

 

[ifor]

I think rounding to the closest % is acceptable.

 

[Al ears]

... is not about price, as nopiano realised after rereading the piece, but about contribution. Interestingly the cartridge is considered way, way less important than any of the other components, which is the complete opposite to what Al bangs on about.

Turntable 23%

Tonearm 18%

Cartridge 5%

Phono Stage 25%

Amplifiers 15%

Speakers 15%

There are other opinions and this is the opinion of Mark Baker, of Origin Live, a very well respected guy in the analogue world.

This is from Mark Baker, a well known maker of turntables and tonearms. So less of the trolling more auditioning. If you believe everything you read on the internet you need a holiday.

For what it's worth I have had two of his decks a three of his tonearms. There's a reason he doesn't do cartridges.

Mark is well known for pushing his tonearms, and so he should, they are excellent but leave it out about the cartridges as not even a Koetsu is going to sound right for some people.

 

[ifor]

All I've done is point out that there other opinions than yours, which are expressed with the type of fundamentalism typical of TrevC. I haven't actually disagreed with you, and I have neither the time nor the inclination to audition as much as you obviously have. For those who are embarking on an auditioning odyssey I would encourage them to consider, not necessarily believe, this "when it comes to viny replay, many think a better cartridge is the route to better sound with the turntable not being so important. In reality a better deck and tonearm will enable a cheap cartridge to perform at the same level as an expensive cartridge costing up to 70 times as much".

 

[Freddy58]

I think rounding to the closest % is acceptable.

Hardly, this is HiFi we're talking about *biggrin*

 

[Al ears]

I think rounding to the closest % is acceptable.

Hardly, this is HiFi we're talking about *biggrin*

Indeed, and once again the thread goes completely off the original question. Perhaps we can regroup and respond the O P s question.

 

[alchemist 1]

I think rounding to the closest % is acceptable.

Hardly, this is HiFi we're talking about *biggrin*

Indeed, and once again the thread goes completely off the original question. Perhaps we can regroup and respond the O P s question.

I think we can say, with reasonable confidence that there has been a improvment in direct drive design.

And boy what a classy looking deck..........*good*

 

[MajorFubar]

You don't have to know everything there is to know about turntables to realise that the notion a cartridge only contributes 5% to the overall sound is nonsense. By that reckoning I can stick an old BSR ceramic cartridge in a Michel Gyrodeck and with everything else in its favour I can achieve 95% of the deck's potential. How ridiculous.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

Spot on Major. A decent turntable and tonearm does figure but, within reason, the most noticable improvements for me have been achieved via cartridge and speaker upgrades.

 

[alchemist 1]

I was hoping there would be a review of the 1200G or 1200GR by now.........*sad*

There is... if you look at other publications.

Or there is this:-

http://www.whathifi.com/technics/sl-1200g/review

http://www.whathifi.com/technics/sl-1200gr/review

Previews maybe, not actual reviews of either model.

What hi-fi seem a little slow on further updates..........*scratch_one-s_head*

 

[Al ears]

I was hoping there would be a review of the 1200G or 1200GR by now.........*sad*

There is... if you look at other publications.

Or there is this:-

http://www.whathifi.com/technics/sl-1200g/review

http://www.whathifi.com/technics/sl-1200gr/review

Previews maybe, not actual reviews of either model.

What hi-fi seem a little slow on further updates..........*scratch_one-s_head*

Thought these were actual reviews. If desperate to read one suggest you try other publications.

 

[chebby]

Aged 14 I had an (idler wheel driven) Sugden Connoisseur BD2 'handed down' to me by my older brother.

 

[alchemist 1]

I was hoping there would be a review of the 1200G or 1200GR by now.........*sad*

There is... if you look at other publications.

Or there is this:-

http://www.whathifi.com/technics/sl-1200g/review

http://www.whathifi.com/technics/sl-1200gr/review

Previews maybe, not actual reviews of either model.

What hi-fi seem a little slow on further updates..........*scratch_one-s_head*

Thought these were actual reviews. If desperate to read one suggest you try other publications.

Found the odd one or two but seem a little vague.....*nea*

 

[Series1boy]

Direct drive in my opinion is only for the DJ playing a vinyl set in a club, or for the bedroom DJ. Belt drive turntables are no good for DJs and is why the technics 1200/1210 mk2,3,5 were the only turntables used in clubs, going back to the late 80's to the mid millennium. Direct drive provides a more consistent spin when mixing your vinyl, as belt drive are very hard to mix 2 records because there is no consistency in the timing and rotation of the deck.

if your not mixing, then belt drive is fine and doesn't add to any sound quality.

most djs now use the pioneer CDJs and vinyl sets are very rare. I.e. Carting your record box around the world isn't as acceptable as just plugging your USB with all your music into the pioneers.. But then this is another discussion somewhere else.