Digital and ethernet cables

[cheeseboy]

no I’m going along with good reasoned well thought out stuff, based on how our brains work and common experiences. You can’t quote nothing to back stuff up, where is the article what does it say, where are the conclusions. If you want to add something why not mention that. Please do........

ok, lets try this again.

We cant say that because we are in a different mood or state of mind we hear things differently. That has no basis in science and the real world.

here is the link from the original article that I posted which is the scientific study which proves what you believe in that statement to be wrong https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3124782/

as I've said, I'm linking to stuff which you are just dismissing out of hand.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

now you are starting to get aggressive with me and personal. If you think what I say is rubbish why not say and we can have a good debate.

Dude, I am saying why I think it's rubbish, but all you are doing is saying that you don't agree with it, then going off on some incomprehensible rant which make no sense.

no you aren’t saying why you think it’s rubbish if you refer to aes and then don’t support what they say or reiterate it, by not having understood and read what they have said, in their study, in fact you’ve believed someone else for the sake of it would seem by not mentioning what they have said. What doesn’t make sense to you of what I’ve said.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Yes but I’m asking you to tell me why you believe the study. Just because it’s a scientific study or otherwise, doesn’t mean it’s a given or is to be believed. In other words I’m asking what you think. Ps I read it through and give you my view. It could change my mind......

 

[cheeseboy]

Yes but I’m asking you to tell me why you believe the study. Just because it’s a scientific study or otherwise, doesn’t mean it’s a given or is to be believed. In other words I’m asking what you think. Ps I read it through and give you my view. It could change my mind......

really? Jesus christ, It's impossible to talk to you.... If anybody else thinks that they can, please be my guest

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Really what? I’m not casting it out one way or the other.........????

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

What this is, is a review. Not a study, granted it refers to lots of studies. It’s a psychological review. But I think lots of the points they make eg that our perception in fear influences how high we see things, is based on our brains estimation . Ie we see it the same but we process it differently due to effects of fear. We are still seeing the same height.

But that’s what we have been talking about in hi Fi. Ie we hear the cable the same between individuals but because of our belief system we assess it differently, that effects not how we hear it but our judgement of it. But we know that happens already, self evidently from this thread. What any proper study would test in abx, is can it be discerned and what are the factors that allow this to happen and those that don’t eg how does familiarity of a hi Fi affect our skills.

 

[davedotco]

Yes but I’m asking you to tell me why you believe the study. Just because it’s a scientific study or otherwise, doesn’t mean it’s a given or is to be believed. In other words I’m asking what you think. Ps I read it through and give you my view. It could change my mind......

really? Jesus christ, It's impossible to talk to you.... If anybody else thinks that they can, please be my guest

It's taken a while but eventually the penny drops.

 

[grimharry]

Group A says yes it makes a difference (real or not)

Group B says no it doesn’t make a difference (tested or not)

Either way it’s another cable thread which just results in pages of yes it does no it doesn’t and you can’t prove this and you can’t that. If you really want to find then just buy a bloody cable and try it.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

i just find a bit weird when people make assertions like davedotco which are very challengable and aren’t common sense.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Yes but I’m asking you to tell me why you believe the study. Just because it’s a scientific study or otherwise, doesn’t mean it’s a given or is to be believed. In other words I’m asking what you think. Ps I read it through and give you my view. It could change my mind......

really? Jesus christ, It's impossible to talk to you.... If anybody else thinks that they can, please be my guest

It's taken a while but eventually the penny drops.

there are people who want to engage in a debate for narrowing points of issue and then there are those who don’t want too..........so what tends to happen is you go around in circles on forums........

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Does it really matter?

- If you hear a difference that you believe...then make a change if it gives VFM

- If you hear a difference and don't believe it....then don't make a change

- If you think it's too ridiculous to even ty...then that too is fine.

Simples.

Right; now carry on for another 85 posts. *unknw*

it’s just a debate. Carry on for as how many as you want too.........

what I reckon people should do on this forum, is set up a internet chat with 5 people or so people, and then have a proper discussion and then you don’t have to keep going round and round.......you don’t have to share numbers but can chat on WhatsApp . Do it like a conference call.

 

[CnoEvil]

it’s just a debate. Carry on for as how many as you want too.........

Debate?

It's much closer to this Monty Python sketch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdoGVgj1MtY

 

[davedotco]

Does it really matter?

- If you hear a difference that you believe...then make a change if it gives VFM

- If you hear a difference and don't believe it....then don't make a change

- If you think it's too ridiculous to even ty...then that too is fine.

Simples.

Right; now carry on for another 85 posts. *unknw*

It is simply about informing people about how comparitive listening works.

We all have our predjuces and different views and that is absolutely fine, I have described some of my own on this forum, my 'predjuces' against Audiolab electronics has come up recently and my requirement for speaker cables to be of identical length gets an airing from time to time.

The point is, I know these predjuces are not rational and probably all in the mind but they are so powerful that I can no more dismiss them than I can ignore suggestion bias. This influences what I buy and how I set things up and it very much works for me, as indeed your own preferences, be it Class A amps or Linn streamers, work for you.

It is why listening to and interacting with equipment when purchasing is so important, it is your own preferences that matter, not someone elses, buy what you prefer and want to own, it makes sense.

 

[CnoEvil]

It is why listening to and interacting with equipment when purchasing is so important, it is your own preferences that matter, not someone elses, buy what you prefer and want to own, it makes sense.

This I totally agree with.

Informing people is fine. Insulting them for not agreeing, less so.

 

[davidf]

Forums are meant to be places where people can talk about their hobbies with other people into the same hobby. Personal attacks and assumptions on people’s personalities are uncalled for - if you want to just dig at people for fun, maybe you could start your own forum for like minded people - there’s plenty out there.

If you have an opinion, voice it, but don’t keep banging on about it until everyone agrees with you. And don’t make suggestions to influence others opinions of posters to aid your argument. It’s almost getting back to the way it was when the ‘certain speaker brand clan” took over the forum. Oh, and I’ve heard them - I don’t like them. That’s my opinion and no amount of name calling or suggesting I like to listen to “horrendous distortion” will change that.

What’s sad is that people are scared to post their opinions and findings on this forum for fear of being attacked or ridiculed. I received an email this morning from someone who has been following this thread, but they were scared to join in and post and share their findings with others about trying certain cables, so they shared it with me. I find that wrong. I enjoyed reading what this person wrote, especially so as they took the time to do so, despite being busy at the time.

People should not be made to feel afraid to post opinions.

 

[cheeseboy]

so anyways, back to op. There are various ways one can check if a digital cable is truely altering the sound. You can use what's called an md5 hash to check if the source and copy are the same. It's also possible to say take the digital out from a dac if it has one and route that back in to a computer on the digital in to basically record the output. Those two files can be either say checked to be nulled out in audacity for example, or audio diff maker. Either way, that's just some of the ways you can check to see if a cable has done anything to the sound, and if they are the same, and you still hear differences, it's logical to assume it's not the sounds that is any different, but the way in which you are percieving it.

 

[davedotco]

Forums are meant to be places where people can talk about their hobbies with other people into the same hobby. Personal attacks and assumptions on people’s personalities are uncalled for - if you want to just dig at people for fun, maybe you could start your own forum for like minded people - there’s plenty out there.

If you have an opinion, voice it, but don’t keep banging on about it until everyone agrees with you. And don’t make suggestions to influence others opinions of posters to aid your argument. It’s almost getting back to the way it was when the ‘certain speaker brand clan” took over the forum. Oh, and I’ve heard them - I don’t like them. That’s my opinion and no amount of name calling or suggesting I like to listen to “horrendous distortion” will change that.

What’s sad is that people are scared to post their opinions and findings on this forum for fear of being attacked or ridiculed. I received an email this morning from someone who has been following this thread, but they were scared to join in and post and share their findings with others about trying certain cables, so they shared it with me. I find that wrong. I enjoyed reading what this person wrote, especially so as they took the time to do so, despite being busy at the time.

People should not be made to feel afraid to post opinions.

Agree entirely with the highlighted point.

What is not acceptable is posting your 'opinion' as fact and putting down those with the audacity to disagree is not.

If you have a point to make, make it, but if you start attempting to justify it by some sort of pseudo-technical claptrap, then you should expect to be called on it.

As a dealer, you have a wealth of real world product experience and (I would hope) some expertese in system building, it would be good to bring that to the forum rather than conforming to the current fashion of establishing your 'credentials' with outrageous claims.

 

[davidf]

Agree entirely with the highlighted point.

What is not acceptable is posting your 'opinion' as fact and putting down those with the audacity to disagree is not.

As a dealer, you have a wealth of real world product experience and (I would hope) some expertese in system building, it would be good to bring that to the forum rather than conforming to the current fashion of establishing your 'credentials' with outrageous claims.

27 years, and that before when I was in the industry. But I’m a person of an open mind rather than a closed one. If everyone believed point blank the final and “definitive” findings of scientists and researchers everywhere, we wouldn’t be moving forward with new discoveries. We don’t know everything about Earth and the species that walk or swim upon it. We don’t know everything about space (which is sort of understandable). And we certainly don’t know everything about the human body. We know how our ears and brains work, but do we know EVERYTHING there is to know about them?

I’m just making a point that there is a lot we don’t know about - do we know everything there is to know about sound, capturing it, and preserving it to sound lifelike? I say not, because there aren’t systems that can recreate a genuinely, indistinguishable from live performance.

And just one last thing - what are these “outrageous claims” I have made?

 

[cheeseboy]

But I’m a person of an open mind rather than a closed one.

open enough to accept that those boutique cables might just be a placebo? Or is this just a one way open mind thing?

 

[davidf]

But I’m a person of an open mind rather than a closed one.

open enough to accept that those boutique cables might just be a placebo? Or is this just a one way open mind thing?

I’ve heard some cables that haven’t made a difference. I’ve heard some that have. I’ve chosen a cheaper cable in a non scientific blind test. So from my own personal experiences, I find it hard to believe that they all sound the same, or that there are no differences. If it was proven to me I’d be open to it, but it’d have to be proven without doubt.

 

[davedotco]

You step outside of your area of expertese (hi-fi) and start posting mumbo jumbo?

Are you trying to suggest that we do not know all that we need to know about electronic systems and computers? We did not discover hi-fi or computers, we invented it precisely because we do understand the science.

This negative skepticism about science 'not knowing everything' is the usual excuse made by people with no scientific education, if you did understand you would know that 'science' is very clear about what it does know and what it does not.

Contrary to your final paragraph, it is the application of scientific method that does allow you to produce an 'indistinquishable from live' reproduction. You probably do not have the space and certainly would not like the cost but technically, it is not difficult.

 

[cheeseboy]

This negative skepticism about science 'not knowing everything' is the usual excuse made by people with no scientific education, if you did understand you would know that 'science' is very clear about what it does know and what it does not.

also worth saying, imho, that if science can't explain something, it offers a framework to try and work out ways in which to work out what is happening, not just sticking ones finger in the air and claiming it's the truth.

 

[cheeseboy]

I’ve heard some cables that haven’t made a difference. I’ve heard some that have. I’ve chosen a cheaper cable in a non scientific blind test. So from my own personal experiences, I find it hard to believe that they all sound the same, or that there are no differences. If it was proven to me I’d be open to it, but it’d have to be proven without doubt.

You didn't really answer the question though - are you open minded enough to accept that it *may* just be a placebo, or expectation bias.

your point would totally depend on what type of cable you are talking about. With digital, we *can* prove that the signal is the same going in as coming out, but somehow even that's not enough proof for some hifi bods. So I guess the question would be, what would you accept as proof?

 

[cheeseboy]

for pittys sake, this forum just gets worse. I edit something, nothing appears, skip to last page, suddenly I'm logged out. Maybe they need to upgrade their ethernet cables or something

 

[CnoEvil]

Does it really matter?

- If you hear a difference that you believe...then make a change if it gives VFM

- If you hear a difference and don't believe it....then don't make a change

- If you think it's too ridiculous to even try...then that too is fine.

Simples.

Right; now carry on for another 85 posts. *unknw*