Digital and ethernet cables

[Muddywaterstones]

I'll try not to make a habit of starting cables threads but the search function here doesn't really aid too much.

So, the new Streamer/Dac wont be too far away in the future. Leaning towards the CA CXN. A couple of questions before I splurge on a bunch of unnecessary accoutrements.

To connect my CD player via the digital coaxial socket I'll need a Digital Coaxial cable. But isn't this fairly much identical to a regular RCA cable, just nominally able to perform at 75ohms. I've a couple of different RCA cables including ones by Van den Hul called The Name which even claims to be capable of 75ohm but no dedicated Digital Coaxial. Will any single RCA be up to the task or will it be left wanting? Or is there a minimum standard that must be met?

When I bought my house 8 years ago I fitted Cat5 cable throughout, future-proofing (!) my connectivity. Now there is Cat5e, Cat6, Cat6A and even Cat7 that all exceed its performance. I'm aware the Cat5 is going to limit any wire that comes after it in the chain so I'm not looking to go nuts. However, is the quality of cable between the socket and Streamer of much importance? Currently I've some supermarket cable, probably picked up for under a fiver, of unknown capabilities but probably built to the absolute minimum standard. It is all a bit twisted and wrinkled but seems to connect fine to my laptop. Would the entry level ethernet cables from say QED or Audioquest be a step up in terms of shielding, speed, etc or is that a foolish path to be wandering? Would going wifi avoid this possible pitfall or does that bring its own complications?

 

[andyjm]

I'll try not to make a habit of starting cables threads but the search function here doesn't really aid too much.

So, the new Streamer/Dac wont be too far away in the future. Leaning towards the CA CXN. A couple of questions before I splurge on a bunch of unnecessary accoutrements.

To connect my CD player via the digital coaxial socket I'll need a Digital Coaxial cable. But isn't this fairly much identical to a regular RCA cable, just nominally able to perform at 75ohms. I've a couple of different RCA cables including ones by Van den Hul called The Name which even claims to be capable of 75ohm but no dedicated Digital Coaxial. Will any single RCA be up to the task or will it be left wanting? Or is there a minimum standard that must be met?

When I bought my house 8 years ago I fitted Cat5 cable throughout, future-proofing (!) my connectivity. Now there is Cat5e, Cat6, Cat6A and even Cat7 that all exceed its performance. I'm aware the Cat5 is going to limit any wire that comes after it in the chain so I'm not looking to go nuts. However, is the quality of cable between the socket and Streamer of much importance? Currently I've some supermarket cable, probably picked up for under a fiver, of unknown capabilities but probably built to the absolute minimum standard. It is all a bit twisted and wrinkled but seems to connect fine to my laptop. Would the entry level ethernet cables from say QED or Audioquest be a step up in terms of shielding, speed, etc or is that a foolish path to be wandering? Would going wifi avoid this possible pitfall or does that bring its own complications?

There is no magic to digital coaxial. Any decent 75ohm cable will do. Good old terrestrial aerial lead is 75ohm and works well in this application, and if your Van den Hul cable mentions 75ohms, then you are good to go.

For what its worth, the standard adopted for home digital audio is a dog's breakfast. RCA plugs do not have a 75ohm characteristic impedance, and no amount of printing a fancy brand name on them will make them so. So no matter which lead you buy it will have an impedance mismatch - but will work just fine.

If your Cat(x) cable works with your laptop, it will be OK for your streamer. Digital audio is not a demanding bitrate, and frankly any old ethernet cable should be fine.

 

[Muddywaterstones]

Excellent. That certainly saves a load of messing around. I think there are still a couple of lengths of ethernet cable in the basement after the electrician. I might knock up a cable for myself to see if it makes any difference. At least then it will be the same wire from box to streamer, if nothing else.

 

[nopiano]

At the “HiFi Show live” in Old Windsor today, one of the last things I attended was an AudioQuest demo. It was mainly about signal and speaker cables, but at the end they offered us a chance to audition several Ethernet cables.

I would be the first to say there is no logical reason why these would affect audio reproduction, being digital. However, having started with a basic printer type cable, we progressed up through about five different models, then back to the basic one. Though I’m at a loss to explain it, the first model up (about £30 I think) was definitely better sounding than the giveaway cable. I doubt I could distinguish any two under blind conditions but they most certainly didn’t sound identical to each other to my ears - and to about 80% of those present. (There was no jiggery pokery with volume settings either, as they used a Linn streamer with the display visible throughout.).

[You might think I’m losing my marbles. However, to try to show I’m not completely deaf, and not being a headphone fan I nevertheless tried five models on the same tracks in another room. The ones I liked best were by no means the costliest nor flashiest, but the rep said they were AKGs Pro model 812 and were the best they had, but weren’t included in their 25% Show discount, unlike consumer models! I was chuffed to have picked them as I had no idea what they were!]

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

No I don’t think you are loosing your marbles, and I’d say you shouldn’t be shy to think of all the people on here who will probably doubt you Ie be more confident with what you heard. I heard the same thing with Ethernet cables in a chord demo going up the range. The point is, are the better Ethernet cables value for what they do. My conclusion has been no, but other people differ as value depends on how much you are willing to spend and how much money you have. But you tend to find on this type of forum they’d doubt spending, as they wouldn’t be spending lots on this.

 

[andyjm]

At the “HiFi Show live” in Old Windsor today, one of the last things I attended was an AudioQuest demo. It was mainly about signal and speaker cables, but at the end they offered us a chance to audition several Ethernet cables.

I would be the first to say there is no logical reason why these would affect audio reproduction, being digital. However, having started with a basic printer type cable, we progressed up through about five different models, then back to the basic one. Though I’m at a loss to explain it, the first model up (about £30 I think) was definitely better sounding than the giveaway cable. I doubt I could distinguish any two under blind conditions but they most certainly didn’t sound identical to each other to my ears - and to about 80% of those present. (There was no jiggery pokery with volume settings either, as they used a Linn streamer with the display visible throughout.).

Given that there is no technical reason why properly specified ethernet cables could change the sound in an audible way, the obvious conclusion is that they didn't.

That you heard a difference is clear, and is the basis of much discussion on this forum and the basis of much advertising in the hifi world. Why otherwise intelligent individuals reach they conclusion that they are immune to suggestion bias (in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary) is beyond me.

 

[nopiano]

At the “HiFi Show live” in Old Windsor today, one of the last things I attended was an AudioQuest demo. It was mainly about signal and speaker cables, but at the end they offered us a chance to audition several Ethernet cables.

I would be the first to say there is no logical reason why these would affect audio reproduction, being digital. However, having started with a basic printer type cable, we progressed up through about five different models, then back to the basic one. Though I’m at a loss to explain it, the first model up (about £30 I think) was definitely better sounding than the giveaway cable. I doubt I could distinguish any two under blind conditions but they most certainly didn’t sound identical to each other to my ears - and to about 80% of those present. (There was no jiggery pokery with volume settings either, as they used a Linn streamer with the display visible throughout.).

Given that there is no technical reason why properly specified ethernet cables could change the sound in an audible way, the obvious conclusion is that they didn't.

That you heard a difference is clear, and is the basis of much discussion on this forum and the basis of much advertising in the hifi world. Why otherwise intelligent individuals reach they conclusion that they are immune to suggestion bias (in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary) is beyond me.

Exactly my thoughts and I was hoping there would be no change at all detectable. As you say, without carrying an analogue signal, attempting to ascribe any audible changes in terms of tonality or image seems bizarre. Yet the staging seemed fuller! I’m sure they weren’t all the same, but as I said to the demonstrator I wouldn’t bet my house on it!

 

[CnoEvil]

At the “HiFi Show live” in Old Windsor today, one of the last things I attended was an AudioQuest demo. It was mainly about signal and speaker cables, but at the end they offered us a chance to audition several Ethernet cables.

I have also been at an event where Audioquest did this (along with herself). We both heard the change and I wrote about it on here. I was determind not to hear anything, as it was impossible - but I did anyway. Mrs. Cno is not affected by the hifi bug, also heard it....and even wrote about it, on here.

It's all quite mad - but you are not alone.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

No it just shows the people who profess to know about technical reasons obviously don’t know fully what’s going on. It can make a difference where you put the decent Ethernet cable. It tends to work and perform better between streamer and router, not router to nas. And it’s nothing to do with bias if you clearly hear a difference, only if you are ummming and aaring.

 

[davedotco]

No it just shows the people who profess to know about technical reasons obviously don’t know fully what’s going on. It can make a difference where you put the decent Ethernet cable. It tends to work and perform better between streamer and router, not router to nas. And it’s nothing to do with bias if you clearly hear a difference, only if you are ummming and aaring.

It is your time and money. Waste it how you want.

 

[andyjm]

No it just shows the people who profess to know about technical reasons obviously don’t know fully what’s going on. It can make a difference where you put the decent Ethernet cable. It tends to work and perform better between streamer and router, not router to nas. And it’s nothing to do with bias if you clearly hear a difference, only if you are ummming and aaring.

13th, I am afraid that the above is complete nonsense.

Firstly, ethernet cables won't make any difference - how could they?

Secondly, suggestion bias is extremely powerful and has nothing to do with 'umming and aaring'.

 

[Al ears]

No it just shows the people who profess to know about technical reasons obviously don’t know fully what’s going on. It can make a difference where you put the decent Ethernet cable. It tends to work and perform better between streamer and router, not router to nas. And it’s nothing to do with bias if you clearly hear a difference, only if you are ummming and aaring.

There is a reason most people don't connect their speakers with a bit of old bellwire. What you hear is what you hear. There's no bias about it.

13th, I am afraid that the above is complete nonsense.

Firstly, ethernet cables won't make any difference - how could they?

Secondly, suggestion bias is extremely powerful and has nothing to do with 'umming and aaring'.

 

[MajorFubar]

13th, I am afraid that the above is complete nonsense.

Firstly, ethernet cables won't make any difference - how could they?

Secondly, suggestion bias is extremely powerful and has nothing to do with 'umming and aaring'.

Seven and a half years on this forum and what I've learned is not one person ever joined here to be told by someone else that their existing opinion about something is wrong. People who can't get their head round the technology enough to understand why certain things such as different Ethernet cables can't possibly make a difference to the sound, even though they think it has, don't come here to be told otherwise. Their reaction will always be defensive rather than "Oh really, wow I was mistaken". So it's probably best not to waste the keystrokes, which is why, after years of wasting said keystrokes, generally these days I do not.

The only thing that bugs me (and the reason I once thought it was worthwhile wasting the keystrokes) is that people like the OP - who ask the question in the hope a forum like this will help them separate fact from gobbledygook - is fed two equally passionate but conflicting answers, and he is no wiser at the point where Godwin's Law is inevitably invoked (or the thread is locked, whichever is first) than he was before he asked the question.

 

[macdiddy]

I was going to write similar things in response to some of the replies but I'm at work and I keep getting interupted so I haven't had the chance.

*ok*

 

[nopiano]

At the “HiFi Show live” in Old Windsor today, one of the last things I attended was an AudioQuest demo. It was mainly about signal and speaker cables, but at the end they offered us a chance to audition several Ethernet cables.

I have also been at an event where Audioquest did this (along with herself). We both heard the change and I wrote about it on here. I was determind not to hear anything, as it was impossible - but I did anyway. Mrs. Cno is not affected by the hifi bug, also heard it....and even wrote about it, on here.

It's all quite mad - but you are not alone.

Thanks, Cno. I think I recall you mentioning it before. I tried to capture above what (I thought) I heard together with the illogic, so that the op could get another take on things. If I were buying a swanky wired streamer - this was Linn Exact biamped into Kudos 707 - I’d certainly try some wires that cost more than a fiver, even if just to get nicer plugs. I think the system cost about £30k.

Like you I was quite disappointed each set didn’t sound identical!

 

[Muddywaterstones]

Cheers for all the replies. I remember when I was getting the house kitted out that the electrician had two different cables, both nominally Cat5, from 2 different suppliers. He was very dubious about the quality of one of them but never elaborated why. By looking at them I think it was the thickness/quality of the insulation/shielding but can't be sure.

Leading on from there, I do suspect my current gnarled wire with its dodgy plastic connectors may be a weak link and it will bug me. I think I'll probably pick up a tool for making my own ethernet cables. At worst I'll be out less than 20 quid.

 

[CnoEvil]

Thanks, Cno. I think I recall you mentioning it before. I tried to capture above what (I thought) I heard together with the illogic, so that the op could get another take on things. If I were buying a swanky wired streamer - this was Linn Exact biamped into Kudos 707 - I’d certainly try some wires that cost more than a fiver, even if just to get nicer plugs. I think the system cost about £30k.

Like you I was quite disappointed each set didn’t sound identical!

Anyone who says it's impossible - should try it. And when they hear the difference that they know is impossible - they might then have more sympathy with those of us who have also heard it (and still have a problem believing it). *biggrin*

 

[davidf]

Sorry Cno, but those who are adamant that there can be no difference whatsoever will never take that audition, and even if they did, they’d never admit to hearing a difference, even if they did - they’re too busy telling people they were wrong anyway.

I’ve heard a few people say something similar to what’s already been posted - between the streamer and router there’s a difference, but not from the wall to the router.

Ive not yet conducted my own tests, but when I do, I have an AudioQuest Vodka and Cinnamon to try it with. Of course, there won’t be any difference because there cannot be. It’ll be interesting finding out though.

 

[nopiano]

Sorry Cno, but those who are adamant that there can be no difference whatsoever will never take that audition, and even if they did, they’d never admit to hearing a difference, even if they did - they’re too busy telling people they were wrong anyway.

I’ve heard a few people say something similar to what’s already been posted - between the streamer and router there’s a difference, but not from the wall to the router.

Ive not yet conducted my own tests, but when I do, I have an AudioQuest Vodka and Cinnamon to try it with. Of course, there won’t be any difference because there cannot be. It’ll be interesting finding out though.

For the record, the demo was from a standard Netgear switch to the Linn player. They had 4 or 5 different leads connected and just swapped at the player end.

Do let us know in due course David!

 

[abacus]

Why do posters always assume that those who say there is no difference have never tried it, as it’s complete poppycock, the difference is those that don’t believe it, try to find out why they heard a difference, (Even though there shouldn’t be one) with the first port of call being a controlled blind test, (Which in 99.9% of cases causes the difference to disappear) if a difference is still heard, (When there shouldn’t be) further investigation ensues until either the difference is eliminated, or they gather verifiable evidence that there is a difference. (Which after peer review, means it becomes fact and not opinion)

To be honest, anybody that believes what they hear in a manufactures demo are just deluding themselves, as without knowing the exact conditions and setup (You would be surprised what manufactures get up to con the public) it’s just not possible know if the difference you are hearing is real or not.

Bill

 

[macdiddy]

everyone on this forum who doesn't agree with you stupid, I wondered when we would hear from you when the op started this thread with a simple question which again has you spouting your usual cr*p, if you don't have anything good to say then stay out of the thread and let the rest of us have a real discussion.

Why are you posting on a hifi forum, hifi systems use cables, it would be a bit quiet without them so get used to people asking questions about them.

As once again you are calling everyone on here idiots, 80% of a room of people idiots and also in the past What Hifi reviewers idiots, read the HOUSE RULES, I think your breaking quite a few of them.

*aggressive*

 

[CnoEvil]

Why do posters always assume that those who say there is no difference have never tried it

With the very odd exception, when I have asked people to list what they have tried and in what system.....I get told that there is no point in testing something that is not posible. That is often followed with a statement like - I don't need to stick my hand in a hot oven to know I'll be burned. I always respect people who have tried something before proclaiming it's impossible.

Have you tried different ethernet cables? If so, what were they and in what system?....or do you think it's too ludicrous to waste your time with?

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

What I really don’t get is the people who always make their mind up on professed technical reasons it definelty doesn’t make a difference, without hearing, are the first to shout that down. It’s not credible and sometimes it’s incredibly arrogant. Sometimes things just happen and it’s hard or often not possible to explain the differences. If you worked in the industry and on the design side it would probably be very easy to explain why these cables often benefit. That’s why in hi Fi I always think better to go on your experiences and ears if you are anything other than someone who really does understand very well indeed and sees things with balance, not comes to shout stuff down . And the bias argument is always again not one that can be used as that pre supposes the person has the others experience in their system, in their room. And they sure as hell don’t unless they are very similar which often they are often not.

Ive heard good differences with powerline versus hard connections of decent chord Ethernet. But I’d not pay for the really expensive Ethernet as I don’t think it’s value. It may be to some. If I won the lottery I’d almost certainly buy chord sarum Ethernet etc as it does make a difference, albeit slight. Please sit in on the tests at shows before passing judgement and have an open mind.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Thanks, Cno. I think I recall you mentioning it before. I tried to capture above what (I thought) I heard together with the illogic, so that the op could get another take on things. If I were buying a swanky wired streamer - this was Linn Exact biamped into Kudos 707 - I’d certainly try some wires that cost more than a fiver, even if just to get nicer plugs. I think the system cost about £30k.

Like you I was quite disappointed each set didn’t sound identical!

Anyone who says it's impossible - should try it. And when they hear the difference that they know is impossible - they might then have more sympathy with those of us who have also heard it (and still have a problem believing it). *biggrin*

absolutely cnoevil.

 

[Pedro2]

Not sure if this has any relevance but over on the Linn forum, some swear by covering cables with aluminium foil to improve SQ. Almost got round to it once but never got beyond purchase of the foil (think it ended up around a turkey in the oven).

The logic seems to be connected with insulation/isolation amidst the spaghetti of cables that inhabit many hi fi system. I certainly wouldn't dismiss it as foo. Cables seem to vary in their material construction, insulation/isolation properties and their connections. I for one, have experienced different audible levels of hum with different types of xlr cables (all of which are shielded) and am still waiting for delivery of one particular brand that has no background noise in my system for new speakers.

Not sure about digital signals but I keep an open mind.