Difference between phono amps

stereoman

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Hello to you. How big is the difference between phono pre amps actually ? Between them as standalone and standalone vs inbuilt. To be honest I cannot hear a big difference in sound between my inbuilt phono and Pro Ject Box MKII and if any, then both sound as good. Are 200 pound phono amps worth the price ? I think the phono amps should be definitely loud enough. It is pretty hard to find any that have high gain...above 40dB for MM. Usually they sound so quiteter than CDs. So how's about the sound according to you ?
 

chris_bates1974

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Not so simple to comment for me, as I changed from a TT with built in phono (Project Debut II) to a Rega Planar 3 and Rega Fono MM MkII.

What I can tell you is that in audition, the MM knocked the cheaper options out of the water. And that my newer set up is a totally different experience. Like going from VHS straight to BluRay and missing DVD entirely!

i hope that helps, or at least gets things started....
 
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Tried this a few years ago. Bought a Project Phono Box DS thinking that it would be better than the internal one in the Marantz... it wasn't, so I returned it.

If you are looking at boosting the signal from the internal phono there is another way of doing this, by reducing the signal input from your other sources using Rothwell passive attenuators. I stumbled across this by complete accident when I connected two -10dB attenuators to my CD input, this 'almost' brings both input levels to the same position on the volume dial. Not entirely sure but I maybe think that -15dB would be spot-on but Rothwell don't make this version. I have found the attenuators completely transparent; I did try a cheaper version and they were nowhere near as good.
 

iceman16

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I have’nt tried a built in phono preamp than stand alone which is a Pro-Ject tube box ds. IME a linear psu upgrade made a considerable improvement compared to a cheap wall wart psu which came with it.
 

MajorFubar

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stereoman said:
I think the phono amps should be definitely loud enough. It is pretty hard to find any that have high gain...above 40dB for MM. Usually they sound so quiteter than CDs.
They generally have much better gain staging, that's why. When CDs first came out, they were so much louder than every other source that anywhere past 11 o'clock on the an amp's volume control was unusable. It took manufacturers a fair few years to redesign the amps so we regained (geddit?) reasonable control again, but as a consequence of them eventually doing that, you're will often have to pump the volume control higher when playing records than you will for digital sources. It's not abnormal and nothing is broken. The volume control has that range for a reason.
 

MajorFubar

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stereoman said:
Hi. Yes this is not so much problem. The "small problem" is with source switching. You have TT playing at 11 o'clock and CD at 9 o'clock. You suddenly switch to CD and it goes loud so you need to turn it down. But it is not so much of a problem of course. Just a nuisance. I think all phonos should be trimmed down to CD source gain ? I mean, they should be louder in general...but I am no expert in this.

Us and our First World problems eh? :)
 

stereoman

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MajorFubar said:
stereoman said:
I think the phono amps should be definitely loud enough. It is pretty hard to find any that have high gain...above 40dB for MM. Usually they sound so quiteter than CDs.
They generally have much better gain staging, that's why. When CDs first came out, they were so much louder than every other source that anywhere past 11 o'clock on the an amp's volume control was unusable. It took manufacturers a fair few years to redesign the amps so we regained (geddit?) reasonable control again, but as a consequence of them eventually doing that, you're will often have to pump the volume control higher when playing records than you will for digital sources. It's not abnormal and nothing is broken. The volume control has that range for a reason.

Hi. Yes this is not so much problem. The "small problem" is with source switching. You have TT playing at 11 o'clock and CD at 11 o'clock too. You suddenly switch to CD and it goes loud so you need to turn it down. But it is not so much of a problem of course. Just a nuisance. I think all phonos should be designed to CD source gain ? I mean, they should be louder in general...but I am no expert in this.
 

stereoman

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MajorFubar said:
stereoman said:
Hi. Yes this is not so much problem. The "small problem" is with source switching. You have TT playing at 11 o'clock and CD at 9 o'clock. You suddenly switch to CD and it goes loud so you need to turn it down. But it is not so much of a problem of course. Just a nuisance. I think all phonos should be trimmed down to CD source gain ? I mean, they should be louder in general...but I am no expert in this.

Us and our First World problems eh? :)

You know how many times I leave CD playing together with Vinyl and switch back to CD.... ;)
 

MajorFubar

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Truth is, prior to CDs, hifi had far better gain staging, and you got to use more of the volume control. Which was a good thing, because analogue pots perform better when used higher up their range. Even on a pro analogue mixing desk, the faders are known to have a sweet spot, though this is partly due to 'unity gain': the point where the signal is being neither boosted nor attenuated in relation to its incoming voltage.

To tackle the rest of your question, yes there can be tremendous differences between the sound quality of RIAA phono stages, and that's only from my experience of using the ones built into a dozen or so amps. Auditioning is the key though, if you can't audition, make sure you can return anything you buy if you're not 100% convinced the difference is worth the money to you.
 

chris_bates1974

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If memory serves, I heard a Project Debut Carbon with both the basic Rega phono amp, and the Fono MkII. I also heard the Project equivalent to the basic Rega. The same amps were then used with a Rega Planar 1.

The Fono made a very great difference in my opinion. The Planar was also rather badly let down by the Rega Carbon cartridge.

I was going to buy the Debut Carbon and the Fono, but when the Planar 3. Are available second hand at good price, I knew it was a no-brainer having owned one a good many years ago.
 

stereoman

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chris_bates1974 said:
If memory serves, I heard a Project Debut Carbon with both the basic Rega phono amp, and the Fono MkII. I also heard the Project equivalent to the basic Rega. The same amps were then used with a Rega Planar 1.

The Fono made a very great difference in my opinion. The Planar was also rather badly let down by the Rega Carbon cartridge.

I was going to buy the Debut Carbon and the Fono, but when the Planar 3. Are available second hand at good price, I knew it was a no-brainer having owned one a good many years ago.

Ok to be honest my Pro Ject MK II Box also gives a slightly better sound than an inbuilt one. But not dramatically..
 
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If your happy with the overall sound then Rothwell passive attenuators? They're a lot cheaper than a phono stage!
 

brownz

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stereoman said:
Hello to you. How big is the difference between phono pre amps actually ? Between them as standalone and standalone vs inbuilt. To be honest I cannot hear a big difference in sound between my inbuilt phono and Pro Ject Box MKII and if any, then both sound as good. Are 200 pound phono amps worth the price ? I think the phono amps should be definitely loud enough. It is pretty hard to find any that have high gain...above 40dB for MM. Usually they sound so quiteter than CDs. So how's about the sound according to you ?

It was one of my early upgrades after buying the 2-Xperience SB. The transformation and reveal between the Phono Box and the Lehmnann Black Cube S/E was jaw dropping. I'm a huge fan of Mr Lehmanns offerings. I listened to a few stages, some very expsnsive Italian one with glowy bits, I tried a few from the Pro-Ject range, but was consistantly blown away by the Black Cube S/E at that price point. A couple of years down the line and it still gives me great pleasure everytime I lay down a slab. It has the warmth and roudness that normally comes with valve amp of triple it's price. 10 out of 10 from me ;-)
 
brownz said:
stereoman said:
Hello to you. How big is the difference between phono pre amps actually ? Between them as standalone and standalone vs inbuilt. To be honest I cannot hear a big difference in sound between my inbuilt phono and Pro Ject Box MKII and if any, then both sound as good. Are 200 pound phono amps worth the price ? I think the phono amps should be definitely loud enough. It is pretty hard to find any that have high gain...above 40dB for MM. Usually they sound so quiteter than CDs. So how's about the sound according to you ?

It was one of my early upgrades after buying the 2-Xperience SB. The transformation and reveal between the Phono Box and the Lehmnann Black Cube S/E was jaw dropping. I'm a huge fan of Mr Lehmanns offerings. I listened to a few stages, some very expsnsive Italian one with glowy bits, I tried a few from the Pro-Ject range, but was consistantly blown away by the Black Cube S/E at that price point. A couple of years down the line and it still gives me great pleasure everytime I lay down a slab. It has the warmth and roudness that normally comes with valve amp of triple it's price. 10 out of 10 from me ;-)

All very valid but as the Lehmann is close to £800 it would seem to be out of line with the OPs initial post.
 

brownz

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Aye.... True dat ! I forget I get agreeable pricing ;-) Sorry !!

But saying that, the same goes for the Black Cube (Non S/E - S/E just adds the linear PSU), and the Black Cube Statement (The EL offering from Lehmann). I've listened to them all side by side and still think they blow much more expensive kit into the weeds !!
 

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