Question Desktop DAC/Amp Fiio K-series - any thoughts?

[PieterG]

This weekend i received my Fiio K11 R2R. It's meant to sit on my desk, fed by a computer over USB, streaming from Tidal or my own music server. My Sennheiser HD620s is connected to the single-ended output with low gain and volume around the halfway mark. Tidal is playing in exclusive mode, and Windows is configured to output 44kHz to avoid certain resampling scenarios just in case. Fiio is also set to no oversampling.

The R2R sound is on the warm side, and that's fine. What bothers me a little, is the lack of detail/resolution and space. I've been listening to various things while working (so not concentrated on the music) and i notice a meaningful difference compared to the Audiolab D9 in my main setup. I don't expect the K11 to be very close to the D9, but i started wondering if a K13 R2R, which has a better, more resolving architecture on paper, would be a better fit. I might add a pair of active speakers later as well.

The K15 (not R2R) looks very nice but i don't feel like spending that money on my desktop setup. I am currently ruling out other devices (Eversolo, Ifi, Denafrips) based on price too. The specs of the Topping DX5-II are very appealing for the price, but i'm not after a very analytical presentation.

So in summary: do i return the K11 for a K13? Anyone with hands-on experience?

 

[Gray]

The specs of the Topping DX5-II are very appealing for the price, but i'm not after a very analytical presentation.

I was listening to my recently purchased DX5-ll last night, from the USB output of a Raspberry Pi, into HD-560S headphones (via the balanced output).

For context, I'm not one of those (strange) people that think music can have too much detail - and I don't like any added warmth.
I find it hard to imagine a better tonal balance than that from the DX5-ll / 560S combination.

It's possible that you could regard the Topping as 'analytical'. But the parametric EQ option of 'Topping Tune' would allow you to shape the sound more to your taste.

I've never heard an R2R DAC, but if they're any 'warmer' than the ESS types I've been used to, then I don't want to.
Give me neutral every time.

 

[RTHerringbone]

I can't comment on the K11 but have the K13 R2R. Mine uses a WiiM Ultra as a streaming transport and is almost always using Tidal as the source, so there are some similarities in our setups.

My headphones are connected via a balanced cable and to my ears it's a great setup. Space and airiness are a hallmark of Planars so perhaps that could explain our different experiences here, so that's not necessarily an issue of the K11. I don't notice any lack of detail or resolution and for me it compares acceptably well with my costlier downstairs system. I know it can't sound as good as that system but it's still more than good enough for my use case.

If you feel noticeably less spacious and detailed than on your main setup, then maybe that is a compromise that has to be made relative to the higher cost of your main amp - it's almost 10x the price. I don't think a switch to the K13 will necessarily unlock a massive leap in fidelity. For reference, I use the NOS mode and usually listen at volumes ranging from 14-18 (assuming the volume levels are consistent between products in the range).

 

[PieterG]

For context, I'm not one of those (strange) people that think music can have too much detail - and I don't like any added warmth. I find it hard to imagine a better tonal balance than that from the DX5-ll / 560S combination.

That's a combination many will describe as "reference sound". And those are open back - i chose closed back deliberately for my listening environment. You will not enjoy the R2R sound 😉

Considering my headphones are very reserved when it comes to treble, perhaps i should give the DX5-II another long look. I like the idea of my desktop setup having a different tonal signature, but R2R might just be a difficult match with the HD620s.

 

[PieterG]

My headphones are connected via a balanced cable and to my ears it's a great setup. Space and airiness are a hallmark of Planars so perhaps that could explain our different experiences here, so that's not necessarily an issue of the K11. I don't notice any lack of detail or resolution and for me it compares acceptably well with my costlier downstairs system. I know it can't sound as good as that system but it's still more than good enough for my use case.

Interesting points. I do read conflicting reviews about K11 vs K13: some say they sound very similar, others say the detail and sound stage are a step up in the K13. Headphones must make a big difference. Yours are open planars, mine are closed (though airy for their design).

Have you ever tried closed back headphones by any chance? It would be interesting to hear your impressions. My old Philips SHP8900 are still lying around here, and while i consider them poorly tuned for hifi and quite bright from the higher mids upward, they don't respond so dramatically to the differences between the two DACs i use.

 

[RTHerringbone]

Have you ever tried closed back headphones by any chance? It would be interesting to hear your impressions. My old Philips SHP8900 are still lying around here, and while i consider them poorly tuned for hifi and quite bright from the higher mids upward, they don't respond so dramatically to the differences between the two DACs i use.

I inherited an old set of Audio Technica ATH-ANC7B but they just weren't good at all; I haven't tried them on the K13. I didn't have a reference point when I first starting using them but knew that they felt very limited in terms of soundstage and overall I think they're just a very mediocre model.

In general I'm surprised that you're experiencing such a stark difference between systems. There's always going to be some difference and perhaps you need to give it more time? You're probably incredibly familiar with the characteristics and qualities of the main system so until your ears adapt to the different traits of the K11 it may sound a bit jarring.

 

[nopiano]

Fiio is also set to no oversampling.

The R2R sound is on the warm side, and that's fine

The NOS setting rolls off the high frequencies, so that is what you are hearing. Rather than keep swapping DACs try the oversampling setting and normal sound will be restored.

If you want to see it in data, the evidence is in this review.

Fiio K11 R2R DAC/HPAMP measurements

This is a simple measurement of Fiio K11 R2R DAC and headphone amplifie. Some setup, 200kohm input impedance, 48khz sample rate, 20khz bandwidth. Balance ouput Dynamic range, No weighting 50mV SNR, 32ohm load, No weighting Linearity, 1khz sine, elliptic filter low and high pass from...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The Topping that @Gray mentions is far more accurate, but I guess you know that? 🙂

 

[PieterG]

If you want to see it in data, the evidence is in this review.

The Topping that @Gray mentions is far more accurate, but I guess you know that? 🙂

Oh wow! That frequency response graph looks very different from the marketing blurb about OS vs NOS

Looks like K13 might not be the answer for me then. I could live with this K11 for a number of reasons - the price tag perhaps being the most important one - but a Topping DX5-II might be on the horizon.

 

[Jasonovich]

This weekend i received my Fiio K11 R2R. It's meant to sit on my desk, fed by a computer over USB, streaming from Tidal or my own music server. My Sennheiser HD620s is connected to the single-ended output with low gain and volume around the halfway mark. Tidal is playing in exclusive mode, and Windows is configured to output 44kHz to avoid certain resampling scenarios just in case. Fiio is also set to no oversampling.

The R2R sound is on the warm side, and that's fine. What bothers me a little, is the lack of detail/resolution and space. I've been listening to various things while working (so not concentrated on the music) and i notice a meaningful difference compared to the Audiolab D9 in my main setup. I don't expect the K11 to be very close to the D9, but i started wondering if a K13 R2R, which has a better, more resolving architecture on paper, would be a better fit. I might add a pair of active speakers later as well.

The K15 (not R2R) looks very nice but i don't feel like spending that money on my desktop setup. I am currently ruling out other devices (Eversolo, Ifi, Denafrips) based on price too. The specs of the Topping DX5-II are very appealing for the price, but i'm not after a very analytical presentation.

So in summary: do i return the K11 for a K13? Anyone with hands-on experience?

I have the K11 R2R it's a more rounded sounding DAC than an analytical one, those are it's qualities. I suspect an K13 will be better resolving without departing from the family signature.

When I upgraded to FiiO PL50 power supply, I did get a noticeable improvement in the sound. The PSU are inexpensive and worth the investment, even if you decide to trade it up to K13.

The baby R2R Denafrips the Enyo is selling for £525, if you were thinking about upping your budget. The only downside, it doesn't have a headphone socket.

 

[PieterG]

In general I'm surprised that you're experiencing such a stark difference between systems. There's always going to be some difference and perhaps you need to give it more time? You're probably incredibly familiar with the characteristics and qualities of the main system so until your ears adapt to the different traits of the K11 it may sound a bit jarring.

Actually the headphones and Audiolab D9 aren't very old either, but i've heard them enough to know they work well together for my kind of listening. I am not ready to give up on the K11 yet. With oversampling switched on and with medium gain it does improve, and louder is better as well. It's not night and day, but maybe it doesn't have to be.

You're certainly right i need to give it more time rather than doing A to B comparisons. What annoys me is that a 15 year old commercial headset almost sounds better with the K11 than my supposedly good quality HD620s. With the Audiolab: completely different story.

 

[PieterG]

When I upgraded to FiiO PL50 power supply, I did get a noticeable improvement in the sound. The PSU are inexpensive and worth the investment, even if you decide to trade it up to K13.

The baby R2R Denafrips the Enyo is selling for £525, if you were thinking about upping your budget. The only downside, it doesn't have a headphone socket.

I remembered you have the K11 and like it. Are you using open or closed headphones? If i keep this one, i'll consider the DC power supply. The K13 is actually powered differently, i believe, which may or may not make a difference.

The budget isn't a massively limiting factor, but i try to avoid spending on a secondary system. Having said that, i will be spending more hours with the desktop DAC and the HD620s than with the living room setup.

That Denafrips is not an option. The K11 or whatever else lands on my desk is going to be used with headphones most of the time, and i don't want a DAC with a separate headphones amp.

 

[RTHerringbone]

With oversampling switched on and with medium gain it does improve, and louder is better as well. It's not night and day, but maybe it doesn't have to be.

I've switched to OS from NOS just to hear the difference, and it's definitely there isn't it? I chose NOS first time round because I preferred that initially, but I'll stick with OS for a while.

I'm not sure if the K11 has the FiiO Control app? You can use that with the K13 to set EQ according to your headphones and targeting specific curves etc. However, it's the worst UI of any app I have ever experienced. Utterly horrific.

 

[Gray]

...a Topping DX5-II might be on the horizon.

It's currently available for the same price that I paid, £269.10 after the 10% discount.

I'm not on commission by the way, but even its onscreen menus are logical - and seemingly designed by someone who's actually used them.

And my headphones are on offer for £89. When I think that you can get the sound I've got for under £360 (plus a digital source).....
Today's newbies to headfi don't know how lucky they are.

 

[Jasonovich]

I remembered you have the K11 and like it. Are you using open or closed headphones? If i keep this one, i'll consider the DC power supply. The K13 is actually powered differently, i believe, which may or may not make a difference.

The budget isn't a massively limiting factor, but i try to avoid spending on a secondary system. Having said that, i will be spending more hours with the desktop DAC and the HD620s than with the living room setup.

That Denafrips is not an option. The K11 or whatever else lands on my desk is going to be used with headphones most of the time, and i don't want a DAC with a separate headphones amp.

My K11's are in the diner, I haven't used my headphones on it, not tested the three headphones on the K11 (2 open, 1 closed), using it essentially as a speaker DAC.
It does sound really good on the Klipsch RM50 speakers.

 

[PieterG]

I've switched to OS from NOS just to hear the difference, and it's definitely there isn't it? I chose NOS first time round because I preferred that initially, but I'll stick with OS for a while.

It's a surprisingly big difference. With my headphones i feel like it has to be on OS to get decent treble. I first chose NOS too, because i remember reading somewhere that it would keep things closer to the encoding of the source files. But there's theory and there's practice...

I'm not sure if the K11 has the FiiO Control app? You can use that with the K13 to set EQ according to your headphones and targeting specific curves etc. However, it's the worst UI of any app I have ever experienced. Utterly horrific.

I work in IT so i can handle poorly designed interfaces 🙄
Unfortunately the K11 has no PEQ, which could have helped me in this situation.

 

[PieterG]

When I think that you can get the sound I've got for under £360 (plus a digital source).....
Today's newbies to headfi don't know how lucky they are.

Very true.
Where did you get the Topping, by the way? I pay in euros and i see it mainly on sites i would normally consider somewhat obscure (Aliexpress, Muzix, ...), and there's Amazon but sold from China.
This wouldn't stop me from ordering, but clearly the brand hasn't made it into mainstream hifi stores.

 

[PieterG]

My K11's are in the diner, I haven't used my headphones on it, not tested the three headphones on the K11 (2 open, 1 closed), using it essentially as a speaker DAC.
It does sound really good on the Klipsch RM50 speakers.

Klipsch are sensitive, revealing and (in a good way) bright speakers in my mind. If that image is accurate, it should be a good match indeed.

If you find the time, and if this thread got you curious, maybe plug in your headphones and find out if your impressions are similar to mine 🙂

 

[RTHerringbone]

I think the Topping is available from mainstream British Hi-Fi sites, but stock is an issue. I was between that and the K13 and ended up buying the FiiO as that was the one in stock.

 

[nopiano]

Oh wow! That frequency response graph looks very different from the marketing blurb about OS vs NOS

Looks like K13 might not be the answer for me then. I could live with this K11 for a number of reasons - the price tag perhaps being the most important one - but a Topping DX5-II might be on the horizon.

I’ve had the time to read much of the thread I linked you to, and a related one. Unfortunately there are some comments that the line outputs are better than the headphone output. Not sure how relevant this is, but that might be limiting your experience I suppose.