Dac Magic / budget dacs - getting to much hype as cdp beaters!

[matengawhat]

Dac Magic and other budget dacs - keep reading posts on here about ppl claiming they are the holy grail which is just one jump to far for me

Whilst they are great at improving budget players and great for improving computer stored music/ipods through wadia & onkyo and squeezebox etc I don't think you can get away from the importance of a very good quality cdp

their versatility is another argument - i got mine for the tube buffer stage for my cdp and to connect my wadia and squeezbox

 

[pete321]

matengawhat: Whilst they are great at improving budget players and great for improving computer stored music/ipods through wadia & onkyo and squeezebox etc I don't think you can get away from the importance of a very good quality cdp

I'd agree with you, but what they good for is to use as a base unit to upgrade from. You can by a DacMagic or Beresford and spend another £200 or so on high quality opamps and capacitors and turn it into something special, way beyond it's total cost. Why spend a grand or more on a DAC when you can go this route. Then you'll have a DAC to beat or rival an expensive CDP, plus it can be used with additional sources.

 

[jaxwired]

matengawhat: Dac Magic and other budget dacs - keep reading posts on here about ppl claiming they are the holy grail which is just one jump to far for me

Whilst they are great at improving budget players and great for improving computer stored music/ipods through wadia & onkyo and squeezebox etc I don't think you can get away from the importance of a very good quality cdp

Makes sense to me if you are in the camp that thinks that all transports are identical. Surely you can acheive better sound cheaper. You can use a cheap transport to feed a good DAC to produce sound that is competitive with much more expensive CDPs. It puts a high quality source in the hands of the masses. Plus, it's more versitile than a CDP.

For me, the jury is still out on whether the transport makes a difference, but I will say that if I have to pick something to skimp on, it would be the transport. Zero involvement in the analog signal.

 

[chebby]

pete321:You can by a DacMagic or Beresford and spend another £200 or so on high quality opamps and capacitors and turn it into something special, way beyond it's total cost.

There are companies who can do exacly the same for a CD player too for a similar cost.

A good DAC is a good DAC whether it is located inside a CD player or in a seperate box. There are also a lot of CD players (and some amps) that allow the internal DAC to be utilised by other devices. Also most CD players have digital coax/optical outputs to use external DACs. (They have been around for a couple of decades now.)

I think there is a DAC 'solution' now for everyone from the traditional CD user to someone who has never bought a CD in their lives (and all those between).

Still suprised to see DAC vs CD player debates given that there is so much good quality equipment at every price/performance level to keep everyone happy no matter which digital platform(s) they choose to enjoy.

 

[Craig M.]

jaxwired:matengawhat: Dac Magic and other budget dacs - keep reading posts on here about ppl claiming they are the holy grail which is just one jump to far for me

Whilst they are great at improving budget players and great for improving computer stored music/ipods through wadia & onkyo and squeezebox etc I don't think you can get away from the importance of a very good quality cdp

Makes sense to me if you are in the camp that thinks that all transports are identical. Surely you can acheive better sound cheaper. You can use a cheap transport to feed a good DAC to produce sound that is competitive with much more expensive CDPs. It puts a high quality source in the hands of the masses. Plus, it's more versitile than a CDP.

For me, the jury is still out on whether the transport makes a difference, but I will say that if I have to pick something to skimp on, it would be the transport. Zero involvement in the analog signal.

jax, you really need to check it out for yourself. i was firmly in the camp of "bits are bits" and could think of no reason for there being differences in transports, my recent experiment with mac mini v xtse v c.a. 640 cdp, all used as a transport totally changed my thinking. the differences i heard where as noticeable as changing the dac.

 

[pete321]

chebby:

pete321:You can by a DacMagic or Beresford and spend another £200 or so on high quality opamps and capacitors and turn it into something special, way beyond it's total cost.

Still suprised to see DAC vs CD player debates given that there is so much good quality equipment at every price/performance level to keep everyone happy no matter which digital platform(s) they choose to enjoy.

You're preaching to the converted, having owned Cyrus and Linn CD players in the past. But more and more people will have music/radio from other sources nowdays. My CD player gave way to lossless music and the flexibilty of having my whole CD collection at the touch of my Windows Media Centre remote, hence the DAC. If you're only going to play CD's as a source of music and don't mind having to keep getting up and down to change discs, I'm with you, get a good CD player, but a good modded DAC is relatively cheap for the performance per pound and is more flexible. It's also a must if like me, you're using an AV amp for music duties, my modded DacMagic left my AVR600 wanting.

 

[matengawhat]

pete321:chebby:

pete321:You can by a DacMagic or Beresford and spend another £200 or so on high quality opamps and capacitors and turn it into something special, way beyond it's total cost.

Still suprised to see DAC vs CD player debates given that there is so much good quality equipment at every price/performance level to keep everyone happy no matter which digital platform(s) they choose to enjoy.

You're preaching to the converted, having owned Cyrus and Linn CD players in the past. But more and more people will have music/radio from other sources nowdays. My CD player gave way to lossless music and the flexibilty of having my whole CD collection at the touch of my Windows Media Centre remote, hence the DAC. If you're only going to play CD's as a source of music and don't mind having to keep getting up and down to change discs, I'm with you, get a good CD player, but a good modded DAC is relatively cheap for the perfromance per pound and is more flexible.

i'm guessing you stay well clear of vinyl then lol

i am slowly geting all my cd collection on to my comp and my 160gb ipod but still find in the lounge most of the time reaching for the little silver discs although i do enjoy the ipod on shuffle as turns up lots of little gems not heard for years

 

[pete321]

matengawhat:i am slowly geting all my cd collection on to my comp and my 160gb ipod but still find in the lounge most of the time reaching for the little silver discs although i do enjoy the ipod on shuffle as turns up lots of little gems not heard for years

I built a quiet Media PC with a 1TB hard drive, ripped all my CD's to WMA lossless (work best with Windows Media Centre) using aBPowerAmp for accurate rips. I've got such a varied taste in music from Motorhead to Mozart, I can just create playlists on-the-fly from the sofa as my mood takes me. It was very rare that I'd listen to more than a couple of tracks off a CD at a time, Windows Media Centre has meant I listen to music for ages now. The only music discs living in my lounge now are SACD's and DVD-Audio's.

I just use a Chord Optichord from the PC to the DacMagic which is then passed by DNM Reson (Bullets) to my Z7. The Burson opamps in the DacMagic take the sound to a different level.

 

[jaxwired]

pete321:It was very rare that I'd listen to more tan a couple of tracks off a CD at a time, Windows Media Centre has meant I listen to music for ages now. The only music discs living in my lounge now are SACD's and DVD-Audio's.

It's a no brainer for you then. I'm old school in the sense I like to listen to most or all of 1 CD at a time. So for me, playlists are not really important. In fact, I'm reluctant to go that route because I'd be tempted to cherry pick all my music into playlists and I really think that there is something special about hearing consecutive songs on a CD as the artist intended. Also, very often by listening to entire CDs, I end up loving songs I would never have given a chance to if I used playlists.

If I was going to go the playlist route, I would buy a WADIA and a iPOD classic. Just my personal preference.

 

[chebby]

jaxwired:I'm reluctant to go that route because I'd be tempted to cherry pick all my music into playlists and I really think that there is something special about hearing consecutive songs on a CD as the artist intended. Also, very often by listening to entire CDs, I end up loving songs I would never have given a chance to if I used playlists.

I would agree on the whole. Especially with classical music. So often I have bought a disc on the strength of one piece of music and fallen in love with some other piece on the same disc that I had just thought of as 'filler' before I heard it. The same has happened with a lot of Jazz too.

Regrettably with pop & rock the 'filler' is usually just that so compilations are often better. (Before you blow a gasket please note the use of 'usually' and 'often' rather than 'always'.)

 

[Gerrardasnails]

pete321:
matengawhat:i am slowly geting all my cd collection on to my comp and my 160gb ipod but still find in the lounge most of the time reaching for the little silver discs although i do enjoy the ipod on shuffle as turns up lots of little gems not heard for years

I built a quiet Media PC with a 1TB hard drive, ripped all my CD's to WMA lossless (work best with Windows Media Centre) using aBPowerAmp for accurate rips. I've got such a varied taste in music from Motorhead to Mozart, I can just create playlists on-the-fly from the sofa as my mood takes me. It was very rare that I'd listen to more than a couple of tracks off a CD at a time, Windows Media Centre has meant I listen to music for ages now. The only music discs living in my lounge now are SACD's and DVD-Audio's.

I just use a Chord Optichord from the PC to the DacMagic which is then passed by DNM Reson (Bullets) to my Z7. The Burson opamps in the DacMagic take the sound to a different level.

I use WMA lossless using dBpoweramp also. I use a MC extender with my DacMagic. I am completely happy with my sound.

 

[John Duncan]

A Dac isn't a cd beater. It just levels the playing field by providing an audiophile-quality analogue output stage for other sources. My DACMagic isn't better than the DAC in my CD player, it sounds exactly the same. What it does do though is let me hear the differences between transport, be they DVD,CD or streamed. And those differences are not negligible.

 

[pete321]

jaxwired:It's a no brainer for you then. I'm old school in the sense I like to listen to most or all of 1 CD at a time. So for me, playlists are not really important. In fact, I'm reluctant to go that route because I'd be tempted to cherry pick all my music into playlists and I really think that there is something special about hearing consecutive songs on a CD as the artist intended. Also, very often by listening to entire CDs, I end up loving songs I would never have given a chance to if I used playlists.

With 1TB hard drives at around £50-£60 ripping the whole CD is not a problem, you can play the whole CD as well as having another 10, 20, 30... all queued up and ready.

 

[pete321]

JohnDuncan:What it does do though is let me hear the differences between transport, be they DVD,CD or streamed. And those differences are not negligible.

If you've already made an accurate rip using something like EAC or dBPowerAmp, then surely you've already got past the hurdle of the transport? A PC is a far noisier beast than a CDP, hence the need for good capacitors in your DAC, but lossless music is not being read by laser anymore.

 

[PJPro]

jaxwired:
......I'm old school in the sense I like to listen to most or all of 1 CD at a time. So for me, playlists are not really important. In fact, I'm reluctant to go that route because I'd be tempted to cherry pick all my music into playlists and I really think that there is something special about hearing consecutive songs on a CD as the artist intended. Also, very often by listening to entire CDs, I end up loving songs I would never have given a chance to if I used playlists.

I don't use playlists either. But I do use random playback. In this way I get to hear tracks from across my collection. If you don't like skipping from rock to reggae you can playback randomly within genre.

 

[matengawhat]

JohnDuncan:A Dac isn't a cd beater. It just levels the playing field by providing an audiophile-quality analogue output stage for other sources. My DACMagic isn't better than the DAC in my CD player, it sounds exactly the same. What it does do though is let me hear the differences between transport, be they DVD,CD or streamed. And those differences are not negligible.

that was kind of my point that a dac doesn't suddenly make your dvd/cdp player better than a dedicated cd beater - but dacs are being sold in a way that if they stick a £200 dac on the end of a £200 cdp that it's suddenly better than many pricier cd players to those that are not in the know

i'm not arguing there value in terms of improving digital sources from computers, squezebox, ipods etc to that they are incedible

 

[Alec]

If you jave a hdd based system, you may well want an external DAC. There are also other uses for them to which Chebby will attest. If you have a CDP, you may think it will benefit from one (and some do say great things about them, tho im not qualified to due to lack of cdp experience), you may not. Whatever.

 

[Craig M.]

pete321:
JohnDuncan:What it does do though is let me hear the differences between transport, be they DVD,CD or streamed. And those differences are not negligible.

If you've already made an accurate rip using something like EAC or dBPowerAmp, then surely you've already got past the hurdle of the transport? A PC is a far noisier beast than a CDP, hence the need for good capacitors in your DAC, but lossless music is not being read by laser anymore.



i can't hear any difference between eac rips and itunes ones, and i now think the whole hdd versus laser in real time is overstated and in fact, completely wrong. my mac connected via optical to a cyrus dacxp lost out to a cyrus and cambridge audio transport, also connected via optical. bit of a downer though as i really like the convenience and playlists of my current set-up.

i wouldn't mind comparing my mac to a airport express(?), to see if wireless streaming made any difference.

 

[RCduck7]

pete321:

matengawhat: Whilst they are great at improving budget players and great for improving computer stored music/ipods through wadia & onkyo and squeezebox etc I don't think you can get away from the importance of a very good quality cdp

I'd agree with you, but what they good for is to use as a base unit to upgrade from. You can by a DacMagic or Beresford and spend another £200 or so on high quality opamps and capacitors and turn it into something special, way beyond it's total cost. Why spend a grand or more on a DAC when you can go this route. Then you'll have a DAC to beat or rival an expensive CDP, plus it can be used with additional sources.

I had a Level 2 upgrade on my DacMagic from a dealer on this site... http://www.audiocom-uk.com/mod_inner.asp?id=82

Does that mean judging from the list of upgrades my opamps were changed to? Yes! They state "the NE5532 op-amps for analogue filter are upgraded to the superb LME49720".

I must say differences were no existend to my ears before the upgrade when i compared it to the dac in my Yamaha AV receiver, after the upgrade i found the improvement to be very small for the price of the upgrade.

So far i compared the DacMagic to a Marantz cd player,yamaha AV on board dac and a Xindak DAC 8 with little or no audible differences.Sources were my PS3 as cd player or my HDD mediaplayer with WAV files.

Only with my Xindak DAC 8 i had a clearer audible difference when i used a good power cord like the Supra or WireWorld mains cables. Is a power supply the DacMagic it's limitation? I don't know, it's only 12V AC we are playing with.

 

[John Duncan]

pete321:
JohnDuncan:What it does do though is let me hear the differences between transport, be they DVD,CD or streamed. And those differences are not negligible.

If you've already made an accurate rip using something like EAC or dBPowerAmp, then surely you've already got past the hurdle of the transport? A PC is a far noisier beast than a CDP, hence the need for good capacitors in your DAC, but lossless music is not being read by laser anymore.

Yes, I mean hard drive as a transport. And it's better than the spinning disc drives I have to hand (though not better than the best ones I've heard - but then I don't have the thousands of pounds required to buy them).

 

[Anonymous]

Craig M.:i now think the whole hdd versus laser in real time is overstated and in fact, completely wrong. my mac connected via optical to a cyrus dacxp lost out to a cyrus and cambridge audio transport, also connected via optical. bit of a downer though as i really like the convenience and playlists of my current set-up. i wouldn't mind comparing my mac to a airport express(?), to see if wireless streaming made any difference.

The comparison you are making is cd-reader vs mac (hd) source + clocking the digital stream in cdp vs in mac mini + circuitry for sending it out via optical. It is not impossible that the clocking/sending is the weak point of mac (while the bits could be the same - I find it had to believe that this is not the case, as I expect very noticable errors). I assume the dacxp is slave here in both cases and completely relies on the timing of the incoming signal, so jitter could be an issue. Which could be different from a dac connected via USB.

 

[Craig M.]

maybe, although with my dacmagic i think the optical from mac is (very) slightly better than usb (although the difference is so small i might be imagining it). i'd love to know the reason, because the theory behind using a hdd based source makes sense to me. hopefully the naim dac will make an appearance before i can afford the cyrus combo, and i can then demo a dac which doesn't rely on the timing of the incoming signal. having said that, i wouldn't be suprised if the cyrus dacxp reclocks the signal at input, using a PLL or something. or i might stop overloading my brain with it all and just get what sounds best.

 

[the record spot]

Good product is good product, but it's a mistake to confuse good with greatness IMO. I've not read anything anywhere that suggests the DM2 is in the latter category. And why three phase settings? It just seems to muddle the picture by giving too much choice to the user - I read a review today which echoed another reviewer's comments earlier this year which questioned their purpose from a practical perspective.

There are other DACs out there which will do the job for not much more money - £650 gets you the Stello SA100 DAC which by all accounts really is something to hear...

No disrespect to what CA do, but they're not the only ones at the table.

 

[matthewpiano]

I love my MF V-DAC but, after what I've heard today from the Marantz CD6003, I'm planning to go back to one box CD playback and retain the V-DAC for the small amount of computer based music I play. The 6003 through its own built-in DAC outclasses anything I've heard from the V-DAC. Its a fantastic CD player.

 

[PJPro]

the record spot:.....And why three phase settings? It just seems to muddle the picture by giving too much choice to the user.....
I suspect this is something offered by the DAC chip...so was straight forward (and cheap) to provide the additional functionality to the user.