Where to put the DAC?

[drcswalker]

Hi All.

Completely new so please forgive my ignorance. I'm looking for some sound advice *groans* regarding iPod, PCs/Macs (I'm a rare breed who uses both), Docks, DACs, Amps, and Connectors. My current audio life revolves around a dance/classical/rock music library on the PC/Mac that I transfer to an iPod (4th Gen classic) and then listen to in the car via USB, at work through the PC via USB, at home on a Bose sound dock, and direct from the headphone jack when I'm out and about. Of the four uses, the Bose at home sounds the worst and the car sounds the best (-_-'). So I was looking to upgrade my home set up, basically the best affordable route from iPod to speaker, but without using an all-in-one like the Bose.

Trawling the internet and forums, such as this one, gives you a lot of information. Most of this information, however, is spread over several years (seems to be 2008 onwards mostly), limited to one item (as per a review) and lots of talk about the different DACs being in iPods, docks, standalone DACs, and integrated amps/receivers, which leaves absolute novices like me hopelessly confused as to:

1. what we should actually be buying? A dock of some description is fundamental to charging the iPod - after that I get lost as to where the digital signal should go and what specifically (amp, standalone, part of the dock?) should convert it.

2. where we should buy it? Direct from the dealers? Internet auctions - does audio equipment suffer from cheap fakes like everything else seems to?

3, how to connect it all up? Also related to what we should buy, but what cables to use for what signal? Wireless options?

4. what to budget for what? Also related to what we should buy, but how much should go where on a modest budget of 500 - 750 GBP for the first system set up? Do I put a bigger investment in the amp than the DAC for example? Should everything get the same?

A lot to ask, but if you've got this far then great. Recommended items and thoughts/comments greatly appreciated

 

[ID.]

I was looking to upgrade my home set up, basically the best affordable route from iPod to speaker, but without using an all-in-one like the Bose.

1. what we should actually be buying? A dock of some description is fundamental to charging the iPod - after that I get lost as to where the digital signal should go and what specifically (amp, standalone, part of the dock?) should convert it.

2. where we should buy it? Direct from the dealers? Internet auctions - does audio equipment suffer from cheap fakes like everything else seems to?

3, how to connect it all up? Also related to what we should buy, but what cables to use for what signal? Wireless options?

4. what to budget for what? Also related to what we should buy, but how much should go where on a modest budget of 500 - 750 GBP for the first system set up? Do I put a bigger investment in the amp than the DAC for example? Should everything get the same?

A lot to ask, but if you've got this far then great. Recommended items and thoughts/comments greatly appreciated

Your budget is small. Don't get too fussed about separate DACs, particularly around your budget. I think you'll get better responses in the hifi section. You have an awful lot of questions there. It would take me a couple of A4 pages to answer them all properly. You seem to be overthinking/complicating it. I'd say buy from a dealer. You'll be able to listen to it and hopefully get worthwile advice and answers. Buying 2nd hand is probably OK. I've heard of headphones and cables being faked, but I don't know about other equipment. Buying 2nd hand would give you better value for money, but probably a better option for those with a bit more experience/knowledge.

If I were looking for a setup at that budget I'd probably be looking at something like the Marantz M-CR603 (if they are still around) or M-CR610 paired with some decent speakers.

e.g. a package like this

http://www.richersounds.com/package/system-savers/mini-hi-fi-system-deals/pah011414

The unit has a DAC in it so you can take a digital signal from your iPod or other sources and take advantage of the superior digital to analogue conversion.

Other speakers that I like with the Marantz include B&W CM1 and Monitor Audio BX5, but it works very well with a wide range of speakers. If you don't need the CD player, there is the M-CR510. Then I think the only connections you'd need are speaker cables (and maybe a USB cable to connect the iPod if one isn't supplied)

There are other potential solutions with integrated amps that have an onboard DAC (e.g. the Marantz PM6005 as well as offerings from other companies like NAD, TEAC, etc.) and then using a digital transport (type of dock that can take a digital signal from the iPod) like the Onkyo ND-S1. There are a number of others, some of which have their own DACs, but I think the M-CR603 or M-CR610/510 would be the easiest and most flexible solution for you. Get some stands if using bookshelf speakers, and it should sound really good.

The only thing I'd be cautious about is whether your iPod is supported because it is getting a bit long in the tooth.

 

[drcswalker]

Hi ID and many thanks for your reply to my rather long winded message. So from what you've said, and from what I can decipher on the www, there are a number of methods for getting iPod to speaker, with or without a standalone DAC. So some of the configurations might be:

(1) IPOD(DAC) --analogue--> AMP --analogue--> SPEAKERS

(2) IPOD ---digital---> All in one DOCK/AMP(DAC)/SPEAKERS, currently what I have

(3) IPOD ---digital---> DOCK (DAC) --analogue--> AMP --analogue--> SPEAKERS

(4) IPOD --digital--> DOCK --digital --> AMP (DAC) --analogue--> SPEAKERS

(5) IPOD --digital--> DOCK --digital --> DAC --analogue--> AMP --analogue--> SPEAKERS

where -- --> is the signal, capital letters are the seperates, AMP could be integrated or include a PRE-AMP, and (DAC) is an onboard rather than standalone DAC. Is this right? So speaking entry level prices then (1) and (2) are about the same, (3) and (4) about the same and (5) the most expensive and reaching beyond my budget? And the route you recommend is going down (4)?

 

[finlays]

Hi

I'm afraid I don't have an answer to give, but wanted to say what a good question this is, and I'm suprised this sort of thing is not asked more often.

There is very little out there that gives a beginner a clear, straight forward and relatively jargon free, yet comprehensive, explanation about how all the different bits of hi-fi fit together, what they do any why - without making prior assumptions about peoples' knowledge.

For example, to someone who is new to hi-fi, it must seem completely insane that many set-ups require / benefit from a seperate DAC - when the obvious thing to do would be to have it as part of the the input (ipod, cd player, DAB etc) or as part of the amp. Clearly there are good reasons, but these aren't always obvious to the uninitiated.

Could be a good article for the mag - an updated beginners guide?

SF

 

[ID.]

Hi ID and many thanks for your reply to my rather long winded message. So from what you've said, and from what I can decipher on the www, there are a number of methods for getting iPod to speaker, with or without a standalone DAC. So some of the configurations might be:

(1) IPOD(DAC) --analogue--> AMP --analogue--> SPEAKERS

(2) IPOD ---digital---> All in one DOCK/AMP(DAC)/SPEAKERS, currently what I have

(3) IPOD ---digital---> DOCK (DAC) --analogue--> AMP --analogue--> SPEAKERS

(4) IPOD --digital--> DOCK --digital --> AMP (DAC) --analogue--> SPEAKERS

(5) IPOD --digital--> DOCK --digital --> DAC --analogue--> AMP --analogue--> SPEAKERS

where -- --> is the signal, capital letters are the seperates, AMP could be integrated or include a PRE-AMP, and (DAC) is an onboard rather than standalone DAC. Is this right? So speaking entry level prices then (1) and (2) are about the same, (3) and (4) about the same and (5) the most expensive and reaching beyond my budget? And the route you recommend is going down (4)?

Cool. I may have missed something, but yes, those are the configurations available to you. An integrated amp means that it has the preamp and poweramp in the one unit, but it may include a DAC like the Onkyo TX-8050 receiver, TEAC A-H01, Marantz PM6005.

I think at your budget (4) or (2) would get you the best bang for your buck. Products like the Marantz M-CR610/510 or something like the Onkyo TX-8050 (http://www.eu.onkyo.com/en/products/tx-8050-43158.html?tab=Details) allow you to connect your iPod directly with a cable and use the DAC in the receiver. There may be some other budget amps with similar features that I don't know of or can't recall at the moment.

 

[drcswalker]

hi ID and again many thanks. I can get the recommended Onkyo TX-8050 for about 220 GBP brand new locally, and about the same price again for the 9050-S. Any thoughts on these or on speakers too? Was thinking bookshelf as they need to be off the floor. Also, if I'm using the amp's DAC then does it matter about the dock provided they output a digital signal? The pure i20, for example, costs about 75 GBP with digital out and the arcam drdock costs 200 GBP with digital out. If the signal's digital then it shouldn't matter should it? :?

 

[drcswalker]

scrub that. I can get the Onkyo DS-A5 dock for 100 GBP to go with the amp so they can be run off the same remote. That leaves me about 180 - 430 for speakers and interconnets. Any more recommendations in terms of how much to spend on these?

 

[drcswalker]

OK. I'd probably do better switching this over to a new post iin the hi-fi section when it comes to differences in amps

 

[ID.]

Hopefully you should get some good feedback on the amps. From my understanding, the TX-8050 has a special usb connection for iPod, so you don't even need a dock. I haven't tried out many docks that give a digital output, but there shouldn't be a whole lot of difference.

For what it's worth, I use my iPod classic with an Onkyo ND-S1000 feeding the DAC in my Esoteric RZ-1, and I love it. I also use an Onkyo ND-S10 with my classic to feed a digital signal into a combined Dac and headphone amplifier for headphone listening and driving some active speakers.