Cyrus 8xp vs xpower?

[gregvet]

Can anyone help explain how much of an upgrade it would be to replace my 8xpd with a pre xpd and an xpower? My speakers are single wire only (spendor sa1s) so I can't add a power amp to my current setup, only replace the power amp part of the integrated, if that makes sense.

According to the Cyrus website, the power rating is exactly the same at 8ohms and 4ohms for the x power in stereo mode without psxr (how it would be used initially) compared to the 8xpd. So would I need to have two x powers in mono, or use a psxr, to hear a difference? I would kind of expect the dedicated pre to make more of a difference at this point?

I know that I could demo for myself, but I am really happy with my system as it stands, and I really don't want to fall in love with the mono x's, which is almost certainly where that demo would end up! I have read on here so often that with Cyrus it really makes a big difference going to pre power, so I just want to see if that is the case even with the same power rating, or only when the boxes start breeding!

Thanks for any opinion

 

[Frank Harvey]

Althought your 8xp is the same power rating on paper as the X Power, I can assure you that the 'real ouput' is quite a different matter. The X Power possesses better drive and current capability, and will drive lower sensitivity speakers, and lower impedance speakers, much better. The power supply in your 8xp will be supplying the display, remote system, and the pre-amp section, as well as providing power for driving your speakers. With the X Power, it's larger transformer is designed for one thing, and one thing only - driving your speakers. You'll find your SA1's will be more capable at the frequency extremes with increased headroom, and sound more punchy and solid.

Obviously, this can be done by just adding the X Power to your 8xp initially, without needing to buy a dedicated pre-amplifier. You can put your 8xp in for an upgrade to a PreXP or PreXPd (I don't have the figures to hand as I'm not at work today). More often than not, I've usually found that an integrated acting as a pre-amp doesn't come up to the same standards as a dedicated pre-amp, partly for the reasons I listed above regarding its power supply. An integrated amplifier will have a power supply supplying various parts of the amplifier, but a pre-amplifier has a smaller power supply due to not needing a large one as it doesn't have a power section. because the pre-amplifier is dealing with low level signals, the last thing you want sitting in their is a large, interfering transformer.

If you add an X Power, you can then borrow a pre-amp from your dealer so you can try it out at home and you'll see what I mean. In some systems it may not be a big difference, but in some it can be very noticeable.

 

[gregvet]

Thanks David. That makes sense.

I am just going to enjoy the system as it is for now I think. If a secondhand xpower bargain comes along who knows, I may give it a go.

Out of interest, does adding a psxr to the 8xpd qx make much difference?

 

[Frank Harvey]

Adding a PSX-R to different products will produce different results depending on the system. It's usually something I would recommend trying at home, and I'd usually leave it until last as a future upgrade that can be made at any time, after getting the main electronics right first. A PSX-R wont improve a badly matched system, but can reap fairly big rewards in a well put together system.

 

[Triggy]

...... this can be done by just adding the X Power to your 8xp ......

How is this connected?

Does this mean bi-amping and, therefore, needs another run of speaker cable and an interconnect between the X Power and 8xp amp?

 

[datay]

...... this can be done by just adding the X Power to your 8xp ......

How is this connected?

Does this mean bi-amping and, therefore, needs another run of speaker cable and an interconnect between the X Power and 8xp amp?

Depends what you want to do and all options are explained in the Cyrus XP amplifier manuals, which cover all amps. In this case, David is referring to adding an X Power as a power amp, so you just run interconnects from the preout sockets of your integrated amp to the X Power. (It - is - in - the - manual). I did this a while ago with a 6XP and an X Power, made a big difference to my PMC DB1i's.

 

[gregvet]

In my case as the spendors are single wire/amp only, I would be using the x power amp instead of the inbuilt 8xpd amplification, using the pre outs on the 8xpd connected via interconnects to the inputs on the xpower. The 8xpd would then be effectively being used as a pre amp.

With other speakers I would most likely bi amp, connecting in the same way but also using the output of the 8xpd to drive either the tweeters or woofers on the speakers, with the x power driving the others. Hope that takes sense?

 

[Frank Harvey]

Yes, that's how you could run it if your speakers were bi-wireable. In this case, as you say, the 8xpD will be used as a pre-amplifier, and the X Power will drive the speakers.

 

[FennerMachine]

From personal experience the quality of a pre-amp makes a massive difference to the overall sound of a Hi-Fi system. But everything needs to be in balance.

Going to separate pre/power can have massive benefits over an integrated amp mainly because of the reasons David gave, plus you can change pre or power without changing everything if you fancy an upgrade or change in the future.

The beauty of Cyrus kit is that you can add to or upgrade components as funds allow.

The X Power's can be turned into mono blocks and/or have a PSX-R added.

You can get a dedicated pre-amp and upgrade it if ever needed.

Or you can get a different pre-amp to go with their power amps.

Possibly best just do a few (2 or 3) comparisons to see if you can hear a difference.

Try to limit it to kit that you actually intend to eventually buy as if you hear the Mono x's...!

If you think its worth the upgrade then get a home demo.

For example you may find that the X Power gives a small performance boost but the dedicated pre makes a massive difference, but you need the X Power to start with.

Then you have to start thinking long term if you want a real performance boost within a reasonable budget, but at least you can do it in stages.

Must add, nice speakers!

 

[FennerMachine]

I have a Cyrus aCA7.5 pre-amp. I built up the various Cyrus kit over a few years from 2003.

I changed the aCA7.5 for the Quad 44 as I the sound was too bright and light-weight.

It was good for years but was always fatiguing after a couple of hours so I decided I needed a change. I changed speakers and pre-amp last year. I had Von Schweikert VR-1 speakers.

Others on these forums suggested various things and the change in pre-amp made the biggest difference over all. I chose the Quad 44 as it has good reviews that indicated it would do exactly what I wanted and was cheap(ish). Could always sell it on if it didn't do the job. It did the job so I kept it!

I've heard Spendor A6's on the end of newer Cyrus CD player, pre-amp and mono blocks.

If I had a larger room for them I would probably get the A6's and use Cyrus kit including a newer Cyrus pre-amp as it sounded amazing. Everything sounded even from lows to highs and the integration of the drivers was seamless. I would miss the qualities of the SA1's though so glad I have a smaller room!

The system I have ended up with works really well for me.

I have a small room, 2.8m x 3.3m with a small 'L' section.

I wanted a warmer, less bright, slightly coloured sound as I was unhappy with the very detailed, bright, light-weight sound I used to enjoy.

 

[gregvet]

From personal experience the quality of a pre-amp makes a massive difference to the overall sound of a Hi-Fi system. But everything needs to be in balance.

Going to separate pre/power can have massive benefits over an integrated amp mainly because of the reasons David gave, plus you can change pre or power without changing everything if you fancy an upgrade or change in the future.

The beauty of Cyrus kit is that you can add to or upgrade components as funds allow.

The X Power's can be turned into mono blocks and/or have a PSX-R added.

You can get a dedicated pre-amp and upgrade it if ever needed.

Or you can get a different pre-amp to go with their power amps.

Possibly best just do a few (2 or 3) comparisons to see if you can hear a difference.

Try to limit it to kit that you actually intend to eventually buy as if you hear the Mono x's...!

If you think its worth the upgrade then get a home demo.

For example you may find that the X Power gives a small performance boost but the dedicated pre makes a massive difference, but you need the X Power to start with.

Then you have to start thinking long term if you want a real performance boost within a reasonable budget, but at least you can do it in stages.

Must add, nice speakers!

Thanks FennerMachine. I love the speakers. In fact I love the whole system at the moment, so am really in no rush to upgrade anything. Just interested to know where to start when the time arises that I get bored! My only criticism of the system is that at lower volumes the spendors don't shine as much, but I'm not really sure going pre/power will fix that?!

Im sold on the whole pre/power thing, my main system is an arcam av9 and p7 biamping my PMC FB1i's and I wouldn't change it until I can justify an AV888 (hence me refusing to hear the new twenty series!).

Out of interest, the only non Cyrus bit you have is the pre amp. What didn't you like about the Cyrus pre amp options, and what else did you try?

 

[FennerMachine]

That's why I'm sticking with what I have. My system sounds good and any changes without a complete overhaul will likely be small for quit a large outlay.

I could have ended up with 8 Cyrus boxes! But I stopped myself.

I'm actually planning my next upgrade, probably going to be an integrated amp.

More of a change than an upgrade, I fancy some valves!

But no need to change or upgrade if you are happy with what you have.

Where do you stop with Hi-Fi?

 

[gregvet]

The beauty of Cyrus kit is that you can add to or upgrade components as funds allow.

The X Power's can be turned into mono blocks and/or have a PSX-R added.

You can get a dedicated pre-amp and upgrade it if ever needed.

Or you can get a different pre-amp to go with their power amps.

Possibly best just do a few (2 or 3) comparisons to see if you can hear a difference.

Try to limit it to kit that you actually intend to eventually buy as if you hear the Mono x's...!

This is one of my issues tho. The reason I looked at Cyrus originally was because the 8xpd qx has a good dac and amp in one small box. It is a small system for the bedroom and I won't get away with half a dozen boxes if I keep upgrading the system with psx-rs etc, my other half will put his foot down at some point. In theory otherwise I could end up with the pre xpd, two x powers and three psx r's in time!

In some respects I would rather jump straight to mono x's as they can't be upgraded in that way. At least then the maximum box count is four. Bet the spendors would sound great with mono x's too

For the mean time I will just try to remain strong, and keep with the one box. It sounds great after all :clap:

 

[gregvet]

out of interest, have you used any other Cyrus amps with the sa1's, or only ever the mono's?

 

[FennerMachine]

With the SA1's, just the aCA7.5 or Quad 44 with the Smart Power's.

Actually bought the SA1's blind after demoing A6's and deciding they would be too much for my room.

Have yet to test them with any other amps.

 

[gregvet]

If it sounds good, listening to other options only makes you doubt what you already have (unless what you listen to is rubbish of course!). It's nice to change things every now and again tho.

Look forward to hearing how a valve amp sounds with the little spendors. Have to say they are lovely little speakers. They kind of creep up on you tho rather than than being all flashy. The longer you listen the more you realise how good they are. They look so pretty too

 

[gregvet]

Obviously, this can be done by just adding the X Power to your 8xp initially, without needing to buy a dedicated pre-amplifier. You can put your 8xp in for an upgrade to a PreXP or PreXPd (I don't have the figures to hand as I'm not at work today). More often than not, I've usually found that an integrated acting as a pre-amp doesn't come up to the same standards as a dedicated pre-amp, partly for the reasons I listed above regarding its power supply. An integrated amplifier will have a power supply supplying various parts of the amplifier, but a pre-amplifier has a smaller power supply due to not needing a large one as it doesn't have a power section. because the pre-amplifier is dealing with low level signals, the last thing you want sitting in their is a large, interfering transformer.

If you add an X Power, you can then borrow a pre-amp from your dealer so you can try it out at home and you'll see what I mean. In some systems it may not be a big difference, but in some it can be very noticeable.

I am still looking at potential upgrade paths with the Cyrus kit (more for fun that for any dissatisfaction or immediate plans).

I have the 8xpd qx model, and there is no price on the Cyrus website for upgrading this to the pre xpd qx, so I contacted them to ask for a price. They responded by saying that they don't do this upgrade, as they do not feel there is a significant difference between using the 8xpd qx pre outs, and using the dedicated pre xpd qx pre amp. They did offer me a reasonable price for upgrading to the Dac XP+ tho!

Just though it was interesting. I would clearly need to demo the different pre amp options, as David suggested above.

How much better is the Dac XP+? >)

 

[Frank Harvey]

I have the 8xpd qx model, and there is no price on the Cyrus website for upgrading this to the pre xpd qx, so I contacted them to ask for a price. They responded by saying that they don't do this upgrade, as they do not feel there is a significant difference between using the 8xpd qx pre outs, and using the dedicated pre xpd qx pre amp.

As their integrated amplifiers tend to use smaller transformers, maybe it makes less of a difference. It's the audible difference that Cyrus would have to weigh up and see whether it was a big enough difference for what it would cost them to do the conversion. Let's just say it cost £600 to upgrade, maybe they feel it's not worth doing for that cost.

How much better is the Dac XP+? >)

The DACxp+ is in a different league. We've used it in many Cyrus systems with their Mono X200 or X300 power amplifiers, and it never holds the system back, even through speakers like ProAc K6's, KEF Reference or even the Blades. It's a phenomenal digital pre-amplifier, which will be worth investing in long term.

 

[gregvet]

The DACxp+ is in a different league. We've used it in many Cyrus systems with their Mono X200 or X300 power amplifiers, and it never holds the system back, even through speakers like ProAc K6's, KEF Reference or even the Blades. It's a phenomenal digital pre-amplifier, which will be worth investing in long term.

I can't help but think that's where I will end up going. I was hoping to be ok with one x power, now I'm thinking about x200's again. Damn you Cyrus/David!

I will probably start with a psxr tho, Cyrus suggest that the qx dacs benefit most of all their contents from this. Plus it's the cheapest upgrade option!

 

[Frank Harvey]

I can't help but think that's where I will end up going. I was hoping to be ok with one x power, now I'm thinking about x200's again. Damn you Cyrus/David!

Apologies for the late reply - I've been busy with some other projects - details will be forthcoming, when suitable

I'm sure if you got a demo of the DACxp+ and Mono X200's you'd be pretty impressed. In fact, I know I sometimes mention we use a top Cyrus system to drive our KEF Blades, but at the moment, we're using the X200's with a DACxp+ (with PSX-R). Although I wouldn't say the X200's quite do the Blades justice, most people who hear the set up are extremely impressed! Of course, it's even better when we use four X300's :twisted:

 

[gregvet]

No worries

Is the dac xp/x 200 overkill for the SA1's tho. I know speakers scale with amplification, but would I be better just going for the x power/pre xpd option for a balanced system?

Guess the answer is to demo, but I'm happy with what I have for now so going to leave it for a bit. Might get a psxr off eBay if I can get one cheap enough just to see how much difference it makes. Cyrus seem to think that the qx dac module gets the greatest benefit from using the psxr of all their products. then at some point when I'm bored try an xpower. And so it begins.

Thanks for the advice, and look forward to hearing more about the other projects!

 

[Frank Harvey]

Oh, you'll hear about them alright!

The DACxp+ wouldn't be overkill for any speaker really - after all, the pre-amplifier is the heart of any system and if that isn't transparent, the rest of the system doesn't really stand a chance. The X200's would be a bit more debatable. They'll definitely have far more power and dynamic capability than the SA1's can deal with, so in this respect, they would be overkill. Having said that, if the SA1's are kept within their operating limits, they'll definitely benefit from the grip of the X200's, and their effortless power output, which is a good thing as they're not that efficient. You'll get more out of them than an X Power, but you won't beat the X Power for its value for money at less than the third of the price of a couple of X200's.

 

[gregvet]

The X200's would be a bit more debatable. You'll get more out of them than an X Power, but you won't beat the X Power for its value for money at less than the third of the price of a couple of X200's.

How much difference between two x powers in mono and the x200's then? That's what I can already see happening, one x power then two. So many options! Damn you Cyrus!

 

[bluebrazil]

i found the biggest difference from going to pre and power with cyrus was a far better performance at low volumes, ideal in a bedroom system. as you know tho, you then end up buying another power amp to try them in mono. even an 8 power rated at 60 wpc knocked spots off my 8vs2 which was rated at 70 wpc but never got into its stride without turning it up a bit. i did add a psxr to my 8vs2 and it was certainly worth it, its now on my pre xp but i have no idea what difference it makes to it.

 

[gregvet]

i found the biggest difference from going to pre and power with cyrus was a far better performance at low volumes, ideal in a bedroom system. as you know tho, you then end up buying another power amp to try them in mono.

Thats good to know. It is definitely the case that the system only gets going once it's a little louder than I normally listen to.

How much difference did going mono make?