http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Deep-CRYOGENIC-Treatment-DCT-For-CD-SACD-DVD-PLAYERS_W0QQitemZ300155417758QQihZ020QQcategoryZ3272QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem not that I am thinking of doing it now... maybe int he future though but I'd never heard of this before... Cryogenicly freezing your hifi/// how would they get around differing rates of contraction!??!
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i remember something like this for cd's.put them in the freezer then have a listen also the green pen on the outside of cd's.i like to hoist my turntable on a block and tackle then have a session of heavy metal.
I don't know how to make of that! They not too far from me though, if I have a free day I might pop over to see them in action (in a true Thai man style!)
[quote user="oldphrt"]That's what they're selling.[/quote]
I am hoping for.....
so it wouldn't waste a trip!
I would like to go there though, just to see what the heaven is going on!
I am hoping for.....
so it wouldn't waste a trip!
I would like to go there though, just to see what the heaven is going on!
[quote user="oldphrt"]If you freeze snake oil it becomes solid s***.[/quote]
No, it becomes frozen snake oil.
Or is this another thing only electronics experts understand?
No, it becomes frozen snake oil.
Or is this another thing only electronics experts understand?
[quote user="Andrew Everard"]
[quote user="oldphrt"]If you freeze snake oil it becomes solid s***.[/quote]
No, it becomes frozen snake oil.
Or is this another thing only electronics experts understand?
[/quote]
Well, I did physics at uni but I can't see how cooling something down enough is going to re-organise its structure.
Also, tiny pits along the length of a conductor *longitudally* will surely increase the surface area of it, hence reduce the skin effect.
Now you can certainly change the mechanical configuration of a metal by *heating* it and then cooling it by various means. Just heating and leaving to cool will anneal the metal, making it less conductive, but heating it to white hot and cooling in oil (not as fast as in water) will promote strength in the material (IIRC). really, this kind of talk is a science of its own....
[quote user="oldphrt"]If you freeze snake oil it becomes solid s***.[/quote]
No, it becomes frozen snake oil.
Or is this another thing only electronics experts understand?
[/quote]
Well, I did physics at uni but I can't see how cooling something down enough is going to re-organise its structure.
Also, tiny pits along the length of a conductor *longitudally* will surely increase the surface area of it, hence reduce the skin effect.
Now you can certainly change the mechanical configuration of a metal by *heating* it and then cooling it by various means. Just heating and leaving to cool will anneal the metal, making it less conductive, but heating it to white hot and cooling in oil (not as fast as in water) will promote strength in the material (IIRC). really, this kind of talk is a science of its own....
[quote user="Mr_Poletski"]Well, I did physics at uni[/quote]
So did I. (All be it 20 years ago so I am extreamly rusty. My own interaction with "Oldphrt" showed me how rusty I am. I am currently re reading my wave/vibrations/transmission line books- and a few maths books- ah complex numbers!)
[quote user="Mr_Poletski"]I can't see how cooling something down enough is going to re-organise its structure[/quote]
How do superconductors work?
[quote user="Mr_Poletski"]tiny pits along the length of a conductor *longitudally* will surely increase the surface area of it, hence reduce the skin effect[/quote]
Of the top of my head, wouldn't pits (discontinuities) act as focal points for signal EM field the same way as lightning conductors points act as focal points ?
I am a bit biased as I use Townshend Isolda cable. While I can't say if the DCT has improved it, I can testify (blind test as well) to the sonic superiority over every cables me and my friends have.
So did I. (All be it 20 years ago so I am extreamly rusty. My own interaction with "Oldphrt" showed me how rusty I am. I am currently re reading my wave/vibrations/transmission line books- and a few maths books- ah complex numbers!)
[quote user="Mr_Poletski"]I can't see how cooling something down enough is going to re-organise its structure[/quote]
How do superconductors work?
[quote user="Mr_Poletski"]tiny pits along the length of a conductor *longitudally* will surely increase the surface area of it, hence reduce the skin effect[/quote]
Of the top of my head, wouldn't pits (discontinuities) act as focal points for signal EM field the same way as lightning conductors points act as focal points ?
I am a bit biased as I use Townshend Isolda cable. While I can't say if the DCT has improved it, I can testify (blind test as well) to the sonic superiority over every cables me and my friends have.
How does cooling something down to close to absolute zero alter the crystal structure permanently?
I'd like to know.
Superconduction was related to reduced electron friction when the atoms have stopped jiggling and become almost absolutely still. It's about getting almost no losses. Wonderful phenomenon but not something available at room tempurature!
So what is the lasting impact of the cryogenic treatment?
I'd like to know.
Superconduction was related to reduced electron friction when the atoms have stopped jiggling and become almost absolutely still. It's about getting almost no losses. Wonderful phenomenon but not something available at room tempurature!
So what is the lasting impact of the cryogenic treatment?
[quote user="Will Harris"]
How does cooling something down to close to absolute zero alter the crystal structure permanently?
I'd like to know.
Superconduction was related to reduced electron friction when the atoms have stopped jiggling and become almost absolutely still. It's about getting almost no losses. Wonderful phenomenon but not something available at room tempurature!
So what is the lasting impact of the cryogenic treatment?
[/quote]
A large dent in the wallet? Possible damage to your gear?
How does cooling something down to close to absolute zero alter the crystal structure permanently?
I'd like to know.
Superconduction was related to reduced electron friction when the atoms have stopped jiggling and become almost absolutely still. It's about getting almost no losses. Wonderful phenomenon but not something available at room tempurature!
So what is the lasting impact of the cryogenic treatment?
[/quote]
A large dent in the wallet? Possible damage to your gear?
[quote user="Will Harris"]Superconduction was related to reduced electron friction when the atoms have stopped jiggling and become almost absolutely still. It's about getting almost no losses. Wonderful phenomenon but not something available at room tempurature![/quote]
Superconduction is a quantum effect the exact reason is not know though there are many theories. It seems that electrons pair up (called cooper pairs) that can pass through a conductor without interfering with the crystaline lattice structure of the conductor. Various material can superconduct and they don't need to be at absolute zero (in fact I seem to remember that nothing can be cooled to absolute zero- a thermodynamic impossibility!). The highest temperature superconductor is a ceramic material (138K). There is talk of a material which superconducts at 150K. From what I have been reading -the race is on to get a room temperature superconductor - a Nobel prize will no doubt be waiting!
[quote user="Will Harris"]So what is the lasting impact of the cryogenic treatment?[/quote]
Get What Hifi to speak to Max Townshend to supply (lend) them an untreated stereo length and a treated piece. Then do a listening test double blinded. Or What Hifi to get some cables and get them treated by the http://www.frozensolidaudio.com/Treatments.htm and do some comparisons
Superconduction is a quantum effect the exact reason is not know though there are many theories. It seems that electrons pair up (called cooper pairs) that can pass through a conductor without interfering with the crystaline lattice structure of the conductor. Various material can superconduct and they don't need to be at absolute zero (in fact I seem to remember that nothing can be cooled to absolute zero- a thermodynamic impossibility!). The highest temperature superconductor is a ceramic material (138K). There is talk of a material which superconducts at 150K. From what I have been reading -the race is on to get a room temperature superconductor - a Nobel prize will no doubt be waiting!
[quote user="Will Harris"]So what is the lasting impact of the cryogenic treatment?[/quote]
Get What Hifi to speak to Max Townshend to supply (lend) them an untreated stereo length and a treated piece. Then do a listening test double blinded. Or What Hifi to get some cables and get them treated by the http://www.frozensolidaudio.com/Treatments.htm and do some comparisons
Having been banned several times for posting defamatory remarks which might have led to these forums being closed down, can you please now leave with good grace and allow others to enjoy the forums.
I am bored with this game of 'I ban you and you rejoin with a new name', and there is some danger that these forums could be closed down because you create some actionable trouble which could deprive nearly 5000 users of their forums, by describing companies or individuals as 'con merchants' or 'crooks' as you have in the past. Will you be happy then? Or indeed was that your intention from the start?
I am bored with this game of 'I ban you and you rejoin with a new name', and there is some danger that these forums could be closed down because you create some actionable trouble which could deprive nearly 5000 users of their forums, by describing companies or individuals as 'con merchants' or 'crooks' as you have in the past. Will you be happy then? Or indeed was that your intention from the start?
To be honest, it would make most sense for us to ignore the rude swine and you can delete his rude posts Andrew. Hopefully he'll get bored and find another site to persecute people on.
You could try blocking his IP address and if that doesn't work, contact his service provider (traceable) and bar access to this domain from there.
Either way I can't see why anyone would go out of their way to irritate so many people quite so much.
I am finding my grinning mug rather annoying. Time for a picture change me thinks!
You could try blocking his IP address and if that doesn't work, contact his service provider (traceable) and bar access to this domain from there.
Either way I can't see why anyone would go out of their way to irritate so many people quite so much.
I am finding my grinning mug rather annoying. Time for a picture change me thinks!
I have to say that I had many debates with oldphrt in the past (other forums) and some of them quite a serious one, I never known him acting like this! I think he was frustrating that in here, doesn't matter how hard he was trying, no one would agree with him.
[quote user="Andrew Everard"]Will you be happy then? Or indeed was that your intention from the start?
[/quote]
I am very sure that above is not his intention. I think because of other forums does allowed members to speak their minds as they wish (mods on site, of course) and he properbly got used to doing just that!.
I am not questioning WHF's house rule at all, your magazine is the best selling in the UK and therefore I totally understand that you have to be very tight on house rules, otherwise your lawyers might get pay over time.
So oldphrt, if you are reading this, may be you should stop! and I promise a good old cables debate with you elsewhere.
So let be happy again! (Angry is not suited to you Andrew, I only know you for being nice
)
[quote user="Andrew Everard"]Will you be happy then? Or indeed was that your intention from the start?
[/quote]
I am very sure that above is not his intention. I think because of other forums does allowed members to speak their minds as they wish (mods on site, of course) and he properbly got used to doing just that!.
I am not questioning WHF's house rule at all, your magazine is the best selling in the UK and therefore I totally understand that you have to be very tight on house rules, otherwise your lawyers might get pay over time.
So oldphrt, if you are reading this, may be you should stop! and I promise a good old cables debate with you elsewhere.
So let be happy again! (Angry is not suited to you Andrew, I only know you for being nice
[quote user="Thaiman"]
Angry is not suited to you Andrew, I only know you for being nice
[/quote]
Not angry, just exasperated. He's very welcome to reregister and help other users, most of whom are, by the nature of the magazine, relatively new to all this, but his defamatory posts and abuse could jeopardise this forum.
The others on which you post seem to have scant regard for the laws that pertain in the rest of publishing, and may one day come undone as a result, but as part of a major media group we have to be more cautious about these things, and calling companies or individuals 'con artists' or 'crimiinals' without any justification is a major problem here.
My intention is to run a robust, but non-confrontational, community, as much to avoid dissuading new posters as to avoid potential lawsuits, and I will act to ensure such a community is maintained.
Angry is not suited to you Andrew, I only know you for being nice
[/quote]
Not angry, just exasperated. He's very welcome to reregister and help other users, most of whom are, by the nature of the magazine, relatively new to all this, but his defamatory posts and abuse could jeopardise this forum.
The others on which you post seem to have scant regard for the laws that pertain in the rest of publishing, and may one day come undone as a result, but as part of a major media group we have to be more cautious about these things, and calling companies or individuals 'con artists' or 'crimiinals' without any justification is a major problem here.
My intention is to run a robust, but non-confrontational, community, as much to avoid dissuading new posters as to avoid potential lawsuits, and I will act to ensure such a community is maintained.
Andrew,
I was going to reply, and then I thought better of it, and now I feel obliged to reply.
I can't help but feel a little responsible here and yet I draw no censure.
I did encourage the octogenarian in question and probably frustrated him mightily. In fact it was exactly me that posted the remark about the entire hi-fi industry being a fraud. I know that when I did it, it was clearly sarcasm and he did previously remark similar things to draw that from me, but nevertheless I can't help but feel some responsibility for taking from this community a resource that may be more knowledgeable than I am. (And no, I don't think he's right, dammit
(where does that fit in with non-confrontational?)
I appreciate completely that you have little or no option but to censor remarks that may be detrimental to your business, and therefore to the community as a whole that you are trying to build here. I applaud you for showing both forebearance in advance of doing so and courage when you needed to act. I'm simply sorry to perhaps have been the catalyst that made it happen in the first place. The man is not a fool, he has much to offer, and has the potential to be an asset here. I hope he can return in a less aggressive manner. I hope the same of myself too.
Jim
I was going to reply, and then I thought better of it, and now I feel obliged to reply.
I can't help but feel a little responsible here and yet I draw no censure.
I did encourage the octogenarian in question and probably frustrated him mightily. In fact it was exactly me that posted the remark about the entire hi-fi industry being a fraud. I know that when I did it, it was clearly sarcasm and he did previously remark similar things to draw that from me, but nevertheless I can't help but feel some responsibility for taking from this community a resource that may be more knowledgeable than I am. (And no, I don't think he's right, dammit
(where does that fit in with non-confrontational?)I appreciate completely that you have little or no option but to censor remarks that may be detrimental to your business, and therefore to the community as a whole that you are trying to build here. I applaud you for showing both forebearance in advance of doing so and courage when you needed to act. I'm simply sorry to perhaps have been the catalyst that made it happen in the first place. The man is not a fool, he has much to offer, and has the potential to be an asset here. I hope he can return in a less aggressive manner. I hope the same of myself too.
Jim
As someone new here, although I've been lurking for some time, I'm surprised that it is thought possible that a forum can be threatened or even closed purely as a result of a personal opinion expressed by person on it. We still live in a free country and have free speech, or at least I thought we did. I earlier made a remark about the possibility that your gear might be damaged by this freezing process. Was that acceptable? Sadly the Hi-Fi industry is awash with rogues, let's do our bit to put them out of business before they totally ruin it.
[quote user="Will Harris"]I am finding my grinning mug rather annoying. Time for a picture change me thinks! [/quote]
You could go down the Gerry Anderson path like me. I use Captain Scarlet instead of my ugly mug ( I am not implying anything about your pic)
Its a shame that Oldpht behaved the way he did. He is from the old school of Physics/ electronics. The problem as I see it was he believed implicitly in theory to the exclusion of all else. Any scientist will tell you a) you must be open minded. b) You must think of new ways to test your theory because no theory is complete
A great man (and personal hero of mine) -Carl Sagen said "There are many hypotheses in science which are wrong. That's perfectly all right; they're the aperture to finding out what's right. Science is a self-correcting process. To be accepted, new ideas must survive the most rigorous standards of evidence and scrutiny."
To my knowledge (which is not great and I stand open to correction), there has been no serious scientific research on interconnect/speaker cable sanctioned/scrutinized by a professional body like the IEEE (probably because (like Oldpht) they believe that (for all practical purposes) the theory is complete).
There are far too many people that have heard a difference between cables to suggest that this is more the a placibo effect. Others and I have taken part in blind tests and confirmed that we have heard differences.
Various internet sites which claimed negative results ( like the one Oldpht presented) are no more valid then sites which claim positive results as nether have been subjected to the peer review process required by science.
After all these years (since dedicated cables first appeared) and all the arguments (sometimes nasty) thrown back and forth, isn't it time this this was put to bed once and for all?. The test would not be to find out which cable is best but simply that "Is there a real difference? (which goes beyond current theory)" . I am confident the answer will be a resounding "YES!!!"
As I said before its a shame about Oldpht because when he wasn't obnoxious and derogatory in dealing with a subjective topic, his advise and experience in helping people with actual equipment problems was quite helpful and insightful.
You could go down the Gerry Anderson path like me. I use Captain Scarlet instead of my ugly mug ( I am not implying anything about your pic)
Its a shame that Oldpht behaved the way he did. He is from the old school of Physics/ electronics. The problem as I see it was he believed implicitly in theory to the exclusion of all else. Any scientist will tell you a) you must be open minded. b) You must think of new ways to test your theory because no theory is complete
A great man (and personal hero of mine) -Carl Sagen said "There are many hypotheses in science which are wrong. That's perfectly all right; they're the aperture to finding out what's right. Science is a self-correcting process. To be accepted, new ideas must survive the most rigorous standards of evidence and scrutiny."
To my knowledge (which is not great and I stand open to correction), there has been no serious scientific research on interconnect/speaker cable sanctioned/scrutinized by a professional body like the IEEE (probably because (like Oldpht) they believe that (for all practical purposes) the theory is complete).
There are far too many people that have heard a difference between cables to suggest that this is more the a placibo effect. Others and I have taken part in blind tests and confirmed that we have heard differences.
Various internet sites which claimed negative results ( like the one Oldpht presented) are no more valid then sites which claim positive results as nether have been subjected to the peer review process required by science.
After all these years (since dedicated cables first appeared) and all the arguments (sometimes nasty) thrown back and forth, isn't it time this this was put to bed once and for all?. The test would not be to find out which cable is best but simply that "Is there a real difference? (which goes beyond current theory)" . I am confident the answer will be a resounding "YES!!!"
As I said before its a shame about Oldpht because when he wasn't obnoxious and derogatory in dealing with a subjective topic, his advise and experience in helping people with actual equipment problems was quite helpful and insightful.
[quote user="Anton90125"]
After all these years (since dedicated cables first appeared) and all the arguments (sometimes nasty) thrown back and forth, isn't it time this this was put to bed once and for all?. The test would not be to find out which cable is best but simply that "Is there a real difference? (which goes beyond current theory)" . I am confident the answer will be a resounding "YES!!!"
[/quote]
I am not going to start a useless debates here, I had more cables wars than John Wayn has his cowboy hats! but I wouldn't put it as resounding "yes" it's all depend which cables and which equipments.
After all these years (since dedicated cables first appeared) and all the arguments (sometimes nasty) thrown back and forth, isn't it time this this was put to bed once and for all?. The test would not be to find out which cable is best but simply that "Is there a real difference? (which goes beyond current theory)" . I am confident the answer will be a resounding "YES!!!"
[/quote]
I am not going to start a useless debates here, I had more cables wars than John Wayn has his cowboy hats! but I wouldn't put it as resounding "yes" it's all depend which cables and which equipments.
[quote user="Thaiman"]it's all depend which cables and which equipments. [/quote]
In a proper scientific test, the effect of equipment would be factered out. Remember is not which cable is best (or worst) but is simply - is there a difference? And importantly is this difference (if it exists) predicted/explained by current theory. If not then a new or extended theory is required- science has moved one step foward. If there is no difference science has still moved one step forward.
Carl Sagan again "The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the supression of ideas"
[quote user="Thaiman"]I had more cables wars than John Wayn has his cowboy hats! but I wouldn't put it as resounding "yes"[/quote]
If not a resounding "YES" then a small one???
"Get off your horse and listen to your cable"- "The hell I will !"
In a proper scientific test, the effect of equipment would be factered out. Remember is not which cable is best (or worst) but is simply - is there a difference? And importantly is this difference (if it exists) predicted/explained by current theory. If not then a new or extended theory is required- science has moved one step foward. If there is no difference science has still moved one step forward.
Carl Sagan again "The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the supression of ideas"
[quote user="Thaiman"]I had more cables wars than John Wayn has his cowboy hats! but I wouldn't put it as resounding "yes"[/quote]
If not a resounding "YES" then a small one???
"Get off your horse and listen to your cable"- "The hell I will !"
I couple of years ago I got (on impulse I confess) a pair of VDH the First interconnects as they were 150 quid instead of 250 quid in Unilet's Blue Murder sale.
When I plugged my CD63Ki into them it was, quite literally like a new CD player - more bass, more presence, more image, more simply everything. Possibly the most cost effective upgrade ever despite being way over the top. Made my jaw literally drop and produced a serious listening session and an enormous grin. The difference was far too great to put down to "jesus they were expensive they'd better sound good". By miles and miles and miles.
Note that the cables they replaced were the best that Comet could offer (you know LCOFC cheapos at 30 quid) because I didn't really believe in cable when I bought them, so the upgrade to the VDHs was simply vast. And I would never really suggest that the system I own deserves a cable of such quality - although it is nice to know I'll never outgrow that particular investment.
This example is almost absurd in some ways as the cost of the cable is so OTT for the system, but to be very simple - cables can make a difference, and it can be truly profound.
When I plugged my CD63Ki into them it was, quite literally like a new CD player - more bass, more presence, more image, more simply everything. Possibly the most cost effective upgrade ever despite being way over the top. Made my jaw literally drop and produced a serious listening session and an enormous grin. The difference was far too great to put down to "jesus they were expensive they'd better sound good". By miles and miles and miles.
Note that the cables they replaced were the best that Comet could offer (you know LCOFC cheapos at 30 quid) because I didn't really believe in cable when I bought them, so the upgrade to the VDHs was simply vast. And I would never really suggest that the system I own deserves a cable of such quality - although it is nice to know I'll never outgrow that particular investment.
This example is almost absurd in some ways as the cost of the cable is so OTT for the system, but to be very simple - cables can make a difference, and it can be truly profound.
I noticed a similar revelation when one of my friends used speaker litz cable as interconnect. Previous to that the best interconnect I had heard was some cable, which was free with a Sony CDP555es CD player in the late 80's. This was a £1000 player with a free £50/meter interconnect. The litz DIY cable came 95%-99% close to that.
[quote user="Anton90125"]I noticed a similar revelation when one of my friends used speaker litz cable as interconnect. Previous to that the best interconnect I had heard was some cable, which was free with a Sony CDP555es CD player in the late 80's. This was a £1000 player with a free £50/meter interconnect. The litz DIY cable came 95%-99% close to that.[/quote]
So maybe low capacitance could be the key to a good interconnect. Interesting. Perhaps low capacitance coax cable?
So maybe low capacitance could be the key to a good interconnect. Interesting. Perhaps low capacitance coax cable?
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