Chain of command...

[luckylion100]

I look at people's signatures on here with great interest, some seemingly appear to have an almost never ending list of components. One that especially springs to mind is Gazzips, probably because I've been following his thread on room correction. Again looking at his chain of components I was left wondering about the order of these and the commands sent down the chain eventually to the speakers, which has priority and how is this set? Dacs in particular spring to mind, so many units have them inbuilt these days, obviously these vary in terms of quality and implimentation. So my question is how is it decided on what DAC has the final say at the output entering the speakers?

My own system was intended to be relatively simple, active speakers being fed (originally) from a Yamaha WCX-50 (now deceased and replaced) and a Phono amp feeding the turntable signal. My speakers have inbuilt DAC and pre-amp section which if I'm honest I want to bypass. Things have recently changed, Oppo HA-1 is arriving today (hopefully this one works, see other thread), I hope to be implimenting a cheap version of Dirac Live (when I purchse the software upgrade) The Oppo HA-1, Minidsp 2x4HD and speakers all contain a DAC, plus I've two preamp sections in my chain... The plan was to have the Oppo outputting (rca) to the Minidsp and then in turn that connected by it's four rca outputs to the each stereo speaker (subs included) I'm thinking as the MInidsp is connected to speakers via rca then that bypasses the digital section of my speakers innards but my confusion lies in the two DACs in the Oppo and Minidsp. Apparent the MInidsp operates some form of streaming function (again I've not used this yet, still boxed, just taken some basic mic readings) So if used in this manner would this kick start the MIniddsp's own DAC being the last component before reaching the speakers? I'm assuming if I use rac outputs from the oppo into the Minidsp the Oppo's DAC will be the all conquering and definitive DAC at the final output stage just passing through the Minidsp? If however I feed the Minidsp a digital connection via the Toslink, who rules the roost then? Basically I want the Oppo as my primary Pre-amp, the Minidsp to solely work it's correction magic whilst feeding the DM10's and bypassing any of their internal electrics.

My system is not set up properly yet, as I'm awaiting the delivery of the Oppo today, so my mind is tryig to sort this out prior to set up. Can i just add at present I'm heavily medicated, for pain relief and not thinking clearly so if this rather long winded post has an obvious answer I apologise... I hope some of the above makes some kind of sense.

Thanks

Yours, of unclear and totally confused mind. LL

 

[Gazzip]

Hi LL 100. I only have 1 DAC in my chain, which is the PS Audio. The Minidsp Dirac I have is the digital version without a DAC, so all sound processing is done in the digital domain. My chain is:

Server/player > Dirac > DAC > Pre-amp > Power amp > speakers.

However, if I had Ellisdj's setup where he has a configurable server/player then I would have installed the Dirac software on to that and cut out the physical Dirac. Make sense?

I am still interested in sticking active crossovers between pre and power amps (2 more stereo power amps would be required), but I am so happy with the sound I have post-Dirac installation that I wonder whether such a move would actually be sensible/worth the outlay...

 

[luckylion100]

Hi LL 100. I only have 1 DAC in my chain, which is the PS Audio. The Minidsp Dirac I have is the digital version without a DAC, so all sound processing is done in the digital domain. My chain is:

Server/player > Dirac > DAC > Pre-amp > Power amp > speakers.

However, if I had Ellisdj's setup where he has a configurable server/player then I would have installed the Dirac software on to that and cut out the physical Dirac. Make sense?

I am still interested in sticking active crossovers between pre and power amps (2 more stereo power amps would be required), but I am so happy with the sound I have post-Dirac installation that I wonder whether such a move would actually be sensible/worth the outlay...

I'm sure you've simplifed your component chain a little. Perhaps mentoned in jest in the Room Correction thread at some point, seemed elongated beyond measure. ;-)

I now have a better understanding of your system, of which like many I assume, I've admired from afar. Sadly my confusion regarding my own limited setup still remains a mystery. Lots of reading and investigating lies ahead.

thanks for the reply.

 

[luckylion100]

just one thing, perhaps I'm typing before actually engaging my brain...

Your Dirac is placed before your DAC within your chain, is this the prescribed order of things as outlined by Minidsp in their top draw systems such as yours?. Doesn't your DAC add a little bit of the flavour, warmth perhaps, a tonal balance you like to what I would assume is the 'ideal' room correction setting according to the Dirac Live software and is implimenting in your system?

I recall, you disliked the Chord dave Dac, so clearly not all DACs sound the same. Of course whatever order of chain of components, if it works for you and it delivers a sound you love all this is irrelevent. Just thinking aloud and I forgot that the higher range Minidsp options come in various guises.

Thanks

 

[ellisdj]

I would check that using the rca in your active speakers actually does bypass the dac, it could well go through an A/D conversion intended for convienience rather than outright performance then its going to negate all you do before it.

I need to read your whole post again but I thought I would just advise you check that because it could alter your overall strategy here

EDIT - Gazzip disliked the Dave Dac before he had Dirac and a few other adjustments - that could have changed everything in terms of that demo.

 

[ellisdj]

The other thing to consider if your employing dsp of sorts i feel you want that done as early in the chain and before any conversion to analogue has taken place.

However in saying that dirac has very much convinced me of its benefit. My system now sounds terrible without it by comparison

Therefore it could be a case of compromising an A/D conversion to get the benefit of Dirac in there.

 

[luckylion100]

The other thing to consider if your employing dsp of sorts i feel you want that done as early in the chain and before any conversion to analogue has taken place.

However in saying that dirac has very much convinced me of its benefit. My system now sounds terrible without it by comparison

Therefore it could be a case of compromising an A/D conversion to get the benefit of Dirac in there.

Certainly a lot to think about and to find out about. Got me slightly concerned now. Originally I got the Minidsp to try to intergrate the subs better. Although to my ears they sounded excellent but I've not heard better, better systems or better systems that are well intergrated. Like I've mentioned the Room correction thread was a great read. I know you're all about being positive on here and assisting others through shared knownledge.. Much of it it goes way over my head but I try to keep up. Anyway, that thread made me research Minidsp firstly then the upgrade to Dirac Live. So thanks.

Now to figure out my still pleasurable, potential problem. ;-)

 

[luckylion100]

The other thing to consider if your employing dsp of sorts i feel you want that done as early in the chain and before any conversion to analogue has taken place.

However in saying that dirac has very much convinced me of its benefit. My system now sounds terrible without it by comparison

Therefore it could be a case of compromising an A/D conversion to get the benefit of Dirac in there.

I need to replace my old yamaha WXC-50 streamer... the Dirac could have been way up that neck of the woods re the chain. I'm now missing a vitual part of the chain, the Yamaha was almost the perfect one box solution, even plugged my phoho amp into it. Doubt though I could consider it after my sorry experience with it, faith all but gone. I purchased the Oppo HA-1 because headphone listening at night is very important to me, Pre/dac/headphone amp, it wasn't my end game component but will suffice. I wanted the Mytek Brooklyn which by all accounts included a half decent phono, oh and MQA but prices seemed to soar.

So looking for a cheap, temporary streaming option, primarily to link my Qnap Nas. I need LAN ethernet connection and the iEast streamer that was recommended to me last night on here seemed to do the job but I doubt it can pass DSD/DSF files through to the Oppo...

Maybe need to take a time out, reset brain and think about it again later. ;-)

But I will listen and attempt to follow and impliment any advice offered.

Thanks again,

 

[Gazzip]

just one thing, perhaps I'm typing before actually engaging my brain...

Your Dirac is placed before your DAC within your chain, is this the prescribed order of things as outlined by Minidsp in their top draw systems such as yours?. Doesn't your DAC add a little bit of the flavour, warmth perhaps, a tonal balance you like to what I would assume is the 'ideal' room correction setting according to the Dirac Live software and is implimenting in your system?

I recall, you disliked the Chord dave Dac, so clearly not all DACs sound the same. Of course whatever order of chain of components, if it works for you and it delivers a sound you love all this is irrelevent. Just thinking aloud and I forgot that the higher range Minidsp options come in various guises.

Thanks

Yes, the Dirac I have is supposed to sit in front of the DAC, pre-conversion to analogue. They do one that sits there, one that does the DSP post-conversion, and one that has a DAC built in that does everything.

My chain of components is as as I described it. There is a JCat USB isolator and a USB to S/PDIF converter in the mix also, but the converter is literally a plug... There are also some cables obviously, but nothing fancy.

 

[plastic penguin]

I look at people's signatures on here with great interest, some seemingly appear to have an almost never ending list of components. One that especially springs to mind is Gazzips, probably because I've been following his thread on room correction. Again looking at his chain of components I was left wondering about the order of these and the commands sent down the chain eventually to the speakers, which has priority and how is this set? Dacs in particular spring to mind, so many units have them inbuilt these days, obviously these vary in terms of quality and implimentation. So my question is how is it decided on what DAC has the final say at the output entering the speakers?

My own system was intended to be relatively simple, active speakers being fed (originally) from a Yamaha WCX-50 (now deceased and replaced) and a Phono amp feeding the turntable signal. My speakers have inbuilt DAC and pre-amp section which if I'm honest I want to bypass. Things have recently changed, Oppo HA-1 is arriving today (hopefully this one works, see other thread), I hope to be implimenting a cheap version of Dirac Live (when I purchse the software upgrade) The Oppo HA-1, Minidsp 2x4HD and speakers all contain a DAC, plus I've two preamp sections in my chain... The plan was to have the Oppo outputting (rca) to the Minidsp and then in turn that connected by it's four rca outputs to the each stereo speaker (subs included) I'm thinking as the MInidsp is connected to speakers via rca then that bypasses the digital section of my speakers innards but my confusion lies in the two DACs in the Oppo and Minidsp. Apparent the MInidsp operates some form of streaming function (again I've not used this yet, still boxed, just taken some basic mic readings) So if used in this manner would this kick start the MIniddsp's own DAC being the last component before reaching the speakers? I'm assuming if I use rac outputs from the oppo into the Minidsp the Oppo's DAC will be the all conquering and definitive DAC at the final output stage just passing through the Minidsp? If however I feed the Minidsp a digital connection via the Toslink, who rules the roost then? Basically I want the Oppo as my primary Pre-amp, the Minidsp to solely work it's correction magic whilst feeding the DM10's and bypassing any of their internal electrics.

My system is not set up properly yet, as I'm awaiting the delivery of the Oppo today, so my mind is tryig to sort this out prior to set up. Can i just add at present I'm heavily medicated, for pain relief and not thinking clearly so if this rather long winded post has an obvious answer I apologise... I hope some of the above makes some kind of sense.

Thanks

Yours, of unclear and totally confused mind. LL

Isn't this just another way of asking/suggesting a different way of finding which component has the biggest impact on a system? If so, it's been asked squillions of times over the years.

 

[luckylion100]

fi I sound like a broken record it wasn't intentional.

I was asking about my system and the best way to set it up. Are you clued up in the Dirac Live system of Room Correction software and the best way to impliment it into a system with two pre-amp sections at different ends, two subs and possibly three DACs in the chain? I'm not, hence my request for advice.

If this has been mentioned numerous times previously I've missed it in my 6 years of membership to this forum.

And If I'm talking utter sh*te I'm sorry, the disclaimer was in the original post. Both Gazzip and Ellisdj have helped me.

 

[Frank Harvey]

What you don't want is multiple A to D and D to A conversions goin on. Unless I'm misunderstanding your system, the digital sources you have are being converted to analogue before entering the MiniDSP, converted to digital again, being processed, then converted back to analogue again before leaving it. And as already mentioned, if your speakers are doing the same again, that is two A to D conversions and three D to A conversions!

That MiniDSP isn't really what you need, as it is really more suitable for analogue components. If you want it to EQ all sources, it will have to sit further down the chain in front of your speakers due to its limited inputs/outputs. Ideally you need a MiniDSP with digital inputs and digital outputs, with no conversion of the signal going on.

 

[luckylion100]

The thing was I couldn't afford the other products in their range that are perhaps more suitable. I was hoping for the Minidsp to be present and the last link of the chain before feeding the speakers. I was looking for a way to control the subs better, According to what I read it seemed to me and my limited understanding to fit the bill. Many of us are still learning and this forum can be a valuable source of information. If however I had PlasticPenguin's seemingly unlimited knowledge I wouldn;t have needed to seek advice and waste other's time.

Thanks to all those that have assisted, as for any others I haven't got the time or patience in dealing with them. Happy to finish the thread here and now.

Thanks David.

 

[MajorFubar]

I would check that using the rca in your active speakers actually does bypass the dac, it could well go through an A/D conversion intended for convienience rather than outright performance then its going to negate all you do before it.

Good question. The DM10s line-in feeds direct to the amplifier circuit via the electronic source selection and volume control, there is no onboard ADC. With a small amount of butchery and electrical knowledge I would imagine it's also very easy to bypass both the source selection circuitry and the remote volume, essentially turning them into a pair of DM5s with bigger amps and better drivers. But anyone doing that would need at least a passive pre-amp to control the input level.

 

[plastic penguin]

fi I sound like a broken record it wasn't intentional.

I was asking about my system and the best way to set it up. Are you clued up in the Dirac Live system of Room Correction software and the best way to impliment it into a system with two pre-amp sections at different ends, two subs and possibly three DACs in the chain? I'm not, hence my request for advice.

If this has been mentioned numerous times previously I've missed it in my 6 years of membership to this forum.

And If I'm talking utter sh*te I'm sorry, the disclaimer was in the original post. Both Gazzip and Ellisdj have helped me.

No experience with measuring devices etc etc. I've always been big in room acoustics (or lack of in some cases). Not really sure what you're trying to achieve. What is your system lacking to explore an expensive room correction devices?

My hi-fi philosophy has alway been to buy a system that suits the room. For instance, if your room is reflective then it's wise to avoid bright set-ups. If it is well sorted with carpets, curtains blah, blah... then again going a brighter route (generalising) tends to be doable. If, by contrast, the room is well insulated then a warm or smooth system may incommode the whole presentation.

 

[ellisdj]

Major has ruled out one potential problem - so if you feed the speakers an analogue signal it gets treated the same as any amp / speaker combo

 

[Frank Harvey]

The thing was I couldn't afford the other products in their range that are perhaps more suitable. I was hoping for the Minidsp to be present and the last link of the chain before feeding the speakers. I was looking for a way to control the subs better,

Have you thought about something like an Antimode (or maybe MiniDSP have an option) that will EQ the subs for you? Depending on the room and setup, many speakers don't really need EQing, and certain issues can be limited with a bit of knowledge that will be present on these forums.

I personally don't like adding in more processing than what is needed, and the issue I have with a lot of EQ systems is that they tend to iron out the characteristics of the speakers - the very reasons that many people buy particular speakers in the first place. At least with the MiniDSP/DIRAC options, you have the ability to change things manually (rather than to some preset curve) where you can ignore the peaks and troughs in the response that make your spaker sound the way it does, and just concentrate on getting a flatter bass response. I'd hold out until you can get the ideal bit of kit you need. Although, and Antimode are a few hundred quid, and will do a good job until you can afford the DIRAC Live MiniDSP models.

 

[ellisdj]

The speakers dont need eqing - measure them and see - They Do

Even well made £18k PMC Studio Speakers do

 

[luckylion100]

fi I sound like a broken record it wasn't intentional.

I was asking about my system and the best way to set it up. Are you clued up in the Dirac Live system of Room Correction software and the best way to impliment it into a system with two pre-amp sections at different ends, two subs and possibly three DACs in the chain? I'm not, hence my request for advice.

If this has been mentioned numerous times previously I've missed it in my 6 years of membership to this forum.

And If I'm talking utter sh*te I'm sorry, the disclaimer was in the original post. Both Gazzip and Ellisdj have helped me.

No experience with measuring devices etc etc. I've always been big in room acoustics (or lack of in some cases). Not really sure what you're trying to achieve. What is your system lacking to explore an expensive room correction devices?

My hi-fi philosophy has alway been to buy a system that suits the room. For instance, if your room is reflective then it's wise to avoid bright set-ups. If it is well sorted with carpets, curtains blah, blah... then again going a brighter route (generalising) tends to be doable. If, by contrast, the room is well insulated then a warm or smooth system may incommode the whole presentation.

Unfortunately I live in rented accomodation and over the past few years have found myself moving around a fair bit. If one is happily settled in their home long term I would imagine it's easy to buy equipment suited to that particular room. Unfortunately I dont have this luxury

I am experimenting with this room, with this hobby. The sound that my modest system creates is actually pretty good. But with the subs I want them to be as well intergrated into the system as possible. i feel at times they're not. It's not a life or death issue, I lose no sleep over it.

However room correction, understanding basic acoustics is something that now really interests me. If/when I move home, which I will within the next year this equipment may well come in handy again.

I didnt spend an absolutely fortune, I went the cheapest route available to me. I still need to fork out for the Dirac Live software upgrade which i will once I've found my way around my system. My system is almost brand new to me (apart from turntable and speakers), the Yamaha WXC-50 went bang which I loved and now really miss. I just had a bad one, I still rate it highly, The Oppo wasn't to replace it but was planned to compliment and work with the Yamaha. If I had my way the WXC-50 would still be here. I'm seeking alternatives or waiting to build up the courage or save the pennies to buy another one.

As I've stated I'm learning like many on here, Gazzip's thread along with Ellisdj's advice within it prompted me to look into room correction, Im now very interested in it.

I assumed the Minidsp 2 x4 HD with it's two RCA inputs could be connected to the pre-outs of either the Yamaha WXC-50 or now the Oppo HA-1's rca pre-outs. The first two rca outputs of the Minidsp2HD would be fed into the DM10's rca inputs, the 3rd and 4th rca outputs of Minidsp would feed the BK subs. That's it really, nothing overly complicated, an upgrade if you like, like so many on here do.. Perhaps I over simplifed it in my mind and faiedl to explain it clearly in my original post... but all I sought was a little advice not to be slagged off for daring to post such a question. I have no intention of causing disagreement but I resent the notion that I'm playing a record that plays here endlessly, We're all perfectly capable of mentioning posters or topics that spring up multiple times daily, but what's the point?

Oh and a forum search function would be great too!!

The Major's post has given me food for thought and a little hope. Anyay i'll muddle through and see how it goes.

Edited to correct typos.

 

[ellisdj]

Lion I think you have got that right mate in terms of your wiring.

Its not ideal because the Sabre Dac in the Oppo is likely a gem and some of that will be undone by the a/d in the mini dsp unit simialrly the low noise circuit within the oppo might be undone by the naff power supply on the mini dsp unit but you can fix that later

But overall it still might sound better (dirac live) than not having that unit in the chain at all - (No Dirac Live)

For me Dirac Lice changed the hobby for me again - I have experience no negative effects of dirac except maybe you need to have a volume slightly higher - mmmm can live with that.

 

[luckylion100]

Lion I think you have got that right mate in terms of your wiring.

Its not ideal because the Sabre Dac in the Oppo is likely a gem and some of that will be undone by the a/d in the mini dsp unit simialrly the low noise circuit within the oppo might be undone by the naff power supply on the mini dsp unit but you can fix that later

But overall it still might sound better (dirac live) than not having that unit in the chain at all - (No Dirac Live)

For me Dirac Lice changed the hobby for me again - I have experience no negative effects of dirac except maybe you need to have a volume slightly higher - mmmm can live with that.

I thought I was going mad or speaking a different language,

Give it a couple of days so I can figure out what I'm doing and I shall let you know how it's going.

Thanks

 

[luckylion100]

The thing was I couldn't afford the other products in their range that are perhaps more suitable. I was hoping for the Minidsp to be present and the last link of the chain before feeding the speakers. I was looking for a way to control the subs better,

Have you thought about something like an Antimode (or maybe MiniDSP have an option) that will EQ the subs for you? Depending on the room and setup, many speakers don't really need EQing, and certain issues can be limited with a bit of knowledge that will be present on these forums.

I personally don't like adding in more processing than what is needed, and the issue I have with a lot of EQ systems is that they tend to iron out the characteristics of the speakers - the very reasons that many people buy particular speakers in the first place. At least with the MiniDSP/DIRAC options, you have the ability to change things manually (rather than to some preset curve) where you can ignore the peaks and troughs in the response that make your spaker sound the way it does, and just concentrate on getting a flatter bass response. I'd hold out until you can get the ideal bit of kit you need. Although, and Antimode are a few hundred quid, and will do a good job until you can afford the DIRAC Live MiniDSP models.

I looked at the Antimode, watched videos, read reviews but thought they seemed a little linited compared to the Dirac Live option. And for me much more expensive.

The Minidsp 2x4 HD is software upgradable to DDRC- 24 Dirac Live status. Unless I'm reading this all wrong... https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/2x4hd-to-ddrc-24

Now if I'd purchased the fully loaded DDRC-24 direct from Minidsp it would have set me back $450 of which i would have had to pay import duty. So I purchased the Minidsp 2x4 HD from France. No duty and the software upgrade later won't be taxable. I'm in no rush,

Obviously I picked the wrong itch to scratch... you live and learn.

Anyway my Oppo has just arrived, time to open my new toy.

Have a good day everyone

Edited again for typos.

 

[luckylion100]

to thank all that have contributed to this thread. Sorry if I'm a little grumpy sounding. This forum is a gem of information, opinions and personaliies, We don't all see eye to eye but if it wasn't here I'd really miss it.

 

[daveh75]

Good question. The DM10s line-in feeds direct to the amplifier circuit via the electronic source selection and volume control, there is no onboard ADC. With a small amount of butchery and electrical knowledge I would imagine it's also very easy to bypass both the source selection circuitry and the remote volume, essentially turning them into a pair of DM5s with bigger amps and better drivers. But anyone doing that would need at least a passive pre-amp to control the input level.

ADM9.1xxx used to have AV Bypass/Unity Gain functionality that would disable/bypass all that and provide a fixed line level input (similar to some stereo amps when used to drive fronts in AV setup in conjunction with a AV amp).

I can't remember if or when it was dropped from the 9s or if it even made it in to the 10s though. With the various iterations of ADMs over the years i gave up trying to keep up with the differences between models...

 

[Infiniteloop]

I look at people's signatures on here with great interest, some seemingly appear to have an almost never ending list of components. One that especially springs to mind is Gazzips, probably because I've been following his thread on room correction. Again looking at his chain of components I was left wondering about the order of these and the commands sent down the chain eventually to the speakers, which has priority and how is this set? Dacs in particular spring to mind, so many units have them inbuilt these days, obviously these vary in terms of quality and implimentation. So my question is how is it decided on what DAC has the final say at the output entering the speakers?

My own system was intended to be relatively simple, active speakers being fed (originally) from a Yamaha WCX-50 (now deceased and replaced) and a Phono amp feeding the turntable signal. My speakers have inbuilt DAC and pre-amp section which if I'm honest I want to bypass. Things have recently changed, Oppo HA-1 is arriving today (hopefully this one works, see other thread), I hope to be implimenting a cheap version of Dirac Live (when I purchse the software upgrade) The Oppo HA-1, Minidsp 2x4HD and speakers all contain a DAC, plus I've two preamp sections in my chain... The plan was to have the Oppo outputting (rca) to the Minidsp and then in turn that connected by it's four rca outputs to the each stereo speaker (subs included) I'm thinking as the MInidsp is connected to speakers via rca then that bypasses the digital section of my speakers innards but my confusion lies in the two DACs in the Oppo and Minidsp. Apparent the MInidsp operates some form of streaming function (again I've not used this yet, still boxed, just taken some basic mic readings) So if used in this manner would this kick start the MIniddsp's own DAC being the last component before reaching the speakers? I'm assuming if I use rac outputs from the oppo into the Minidsp the Oppo's DAC will be the all conquering and definitive DAC at the final output stage just passing through the Minidsp? If however I feed the Minidsp a digital connection via the Toslink, who rules the roost then? Basically I want the Oppo as my primary Pre-amp, the Minidsp to solely work it's correction magic whilst feeding the DM10's and bypassing any of their internal electrics.

My system is not set up properly yet, as I'm awaiting the delivery of the Oppo today, so my mind is tryig to sort this out prior to set up. Can i just add at present I'm heavily medicated, for pain relief and not thinking clearly so if this rather long winded post has an obvious answer I apologise... I hope some of the above makes some kind of sense.

Thanks

Yours, of unclear and totally confused mind. LL

And therein lies the problem with Active speakers. If you want to bypass or add anything, it very quickly becomes very complicated.

Part of this hobby for me is the freedom to box swap and enjoy the difference changing components can make.

Active speakers might be great VFM, but aren't they a little bit boring?