No worries at all. Sometimes what my brain wants to say doesn't always come out in the most precise words, so I had no issues with you asking for clarification.
BenLaw
Well-known member
Reading through alot of the responses in this topic like other topics related to soundstage/image I have to wonder how alot of you have your speakers set up.
with most recordings the main vocalist is placed dead center between your 2 speakers (sweet spot) ahead and above the physical location of the speakers (both speakers firing forward, no tow in) - the tow in used to focus the image in front of you. More volume/power pushes this image upward, forward and outward.
I have placed jenga blocks under the front spikes on my speakers so they 'lean back'. Motive builds this into their designs and now PMC with their latest design are doing the same - but height is something I certainly hear from my speakers.
I always thought this was the whole point of stereo reproduction to fool the brain and one of the things that was demonstrated on those old vinyl test LPs you used to get with new 'stereos'. and yes it was the bird...... Kate Bush does it also on Aerial
with most recordings the main vocalist is placed dead center between your 2 speakers (sweet spot) ahead and above the physical location of the speakers (both speakers firing forward, no tow in) - the tow in used to focus the image in front of you. More volume/power pushes this image upward, forward and outward.
I have placed jenga blocks under the front spikes on my speakers so they 'lean back'. Motive builds this into their designs and now PMC with their latest design are doing the same - but height is something I certainly hear from my speakers.
I always thought this was the whole point of stereo reproduction to fool the brain and one of the things that was demonstrated on those old vinyl test LPs you used to get with new 'stereos'. and yes it was the bird...... Kate Bush does it also on Aerial
Native_bon
Well-known member
I write & produce music. yes you can fool your sense of hearing by the way you compress & place instruments in the mix with stereo sound. This may include reverb, delay, chorus, & also layering of sounds within a mix. Also a techique of panning some sounds far left & far right, then adding another track of the same sound in the middle of the sound field with a little reverb applied.
I would say most songs now adays use compression & a thing call side chaining to create of a lot of allusion in the stereo field.
It takes years of practice to be good at making really good sound stage within a song & also make each sound have its own space in the mix.
I would say most songs now adays use compression & a thing call side chaining to create of a lot of allusion in the stereo field.
It takes years of practice to be good at making really good sound stage within a song & also make each sound have its own space in the mix.
The_Lhc
Well-known member
BenLaw said:
But what is it about the two sounds (one above and one in front) that causes your ear to be able to hear that they're coming from two different places? You play two identical sounds from the same distance at the same volume, just differing the height, record them and then measure the waveforms they will NOT be identical. The difference is the information that tells your brain where the sound is coming from.
BenLaw
Well-known member
The_Lhc said:
Hmm, I have nowhere near enough technical knowledge to debate this properly and nor, I suspect, do you. By your argument, any sound recorded in a mic and then replayed through speakers will (as long as the waveform is reproduced sufficiently accurately) give you all the information your ears and brain need to locate height. However, no-one on this thread has suggested it's that simple, if it is possible at all. So for now, I remain unconvinced by your argument, while remaining open to the possibility that mastering and use of well-understood psycho-acoustics could well replicate the effect.
These speakers create the impression that kick drums are low down and that bass guitars are low slung, whilst smaller drums are higher up with cymbals being high and vocalists are standing up.
These speakers don't.
These speakers don't.
Not sure if people are aware of this so I thought I'd add..
The brain positions sounds in two different ways (well, three actually but that's not important right now...); phase and amplitude.
Above about 1kHz the brain uses IIAD (inter aural AMPLITUDE difference) for sound location, below that mark the brain uses IIPD (inter aural PHASE difference) to locate sounds. If you think about wavelengths and the size of the human ear this is perfectly natural (and if you think about elephants and their huge ears and their ability to locate stampeeds from across the savanah it makes sense too). There is an overlap but that confuses things so I'll stay away from that.
What this means is that you have two different issues when considering your listening environment. Or to look at it another way, two different tools to slove your problems.
High frequency sounds reflect easily off hard surfaces, if you have hard surfaces around your speakers (maybe above them?) then you will have reflactions in the frequencies where sound level is importnant for location. It doesn't take large powers of deduction to see that if you have reflections from above your speakers then you MIGHT percieve a height in higher frequency aspects of the recording.
The lower frequencies have longer wavelengths so interact more with the shape and bulk in the room so, for example, you shouldn't have your listening position right against the back wall as, in our size rooms you are liable to get boom.
It is strange that people will argue the toss over whether a cable/amp/cd player will make a smidgeon of difference to the bass/treble performance of the system (and spend thouands on it) yet simply moving the speakers, putting down a rug, hanging some pictures, getting a pot plant, moving the sofa, moving the table (you get the picture) can have a HUGE effect on the sound of a system.
I hope that makes sense, I did have a bottle of red wine for lunch (well why not? it's raining and I have some new speakers to listen to). The point I was trying to get across is that yes, music is recorded in stereo but the way our brain INTERPRETS the signals our ears receive and the way our listening environments interact with those signals can give rise to any number of weird effects.
The brain positions sounds in two different ways (well, three actually but that's not important right now...); phase and amplitude.
Above about 1kHz the brain uses IIAD (inter aural AMPLITUDE difference) for sound location, below that mark the brain uses IIPD (inter aural PHASE difference) to locate sounds. If you think about wavelengths and the size of the human ear this is perfectly natural (and if you think about elephants and their huge ears and their ability to locate stampeeds from across the savanah it makes sense too). There is an overlap but that confuses things so I'll stay away from that.
What this means is that you have two different issues when considering your listening environment. Or to look at it another way, two different tools to slove your problems.
High frequency sounds reflect easily off hard surfaces, if you have hard surfaces around your speakers (maybe above them?) then you will have reflactions in the frequencies where sound level is importnant for location. It doesn't take large powers of deduction to see that if you have reflections from above your speakers then you MIGHT percieve a height in higher frequency aspects of the recording.
The lower frequencies have longer wavelengths so interact more with the shape and bulk in the room so, for example, you shouldn't have your listening position right against the back wall as, in our size rooms you are liable to get boom.
It is strange that people will argue the toss over whether a cable/amp/cd player will make a smidgeon of difference to the bass/treble performance of the system (and spend thouands on it) yet simply moving the speakers, putting down a rug, hanging some pictures, getting a pot plant, moving the sofa, moving the table (you get the picture) can have a HUGE effect on the sound of a system.
I hope that makes sense, I did have a bottle of red wine for lunch (well why not? it's raining and I have some new speakers to listen to). The point I was trying to get across is that yes, music is recorded in stereo but the way our brain INTERPRETS the signals our ears receive and the way our listening environments interact with those signals can give rise to any number of weird effects.
nopiano
Well-known member
Thanks, nawty, that's one of the best posts I've read in ages. Totally agree about the setup, and often wonder if many of the questions about how my amp/speakers sound would be solved this way.
This is purely theoretical ,if you drew an imaginary line from floor to ceiling centre of the room then turned your speakers on their side .one 2 feet from the floor and Hung the other 2 feet from the ceiling both along this vertical line with tweeters on the right of the line and driver on the left side .would you hear high level frequencies in your right ear and low frequency in your left .or wouldn't you get any differences from left to right ears ,just your soundstage would move up and down .its only me who could think of this .ha ha
nopiano
Well-known member
damonster said:
It would easier to lie on the couch and listen, wouldn't it?
But as to your hypothesis, both ears hear both channels (and would in your experiement too) but the relative loudness gives the sense of direction. Only with headphones does left ear only hear left channel (and similar with right), which is why it isn't proper stereo, and images are in your head rather than 'out there'.
Soundstaging was brilliant too, with a broad and deep stage wherein individual instruments remained tacitly distinct to conform with colleague Ralph Werner’s hifi staging standard model of his KEF Q900 review. Depth layering wasn’t evident merely between the boxes but also with instruments situated far left or right. On John Lee Hooker’s "My dream" from The Healer, the KEF made clear that his guitar amp stood on the floor beside him whilst the studio’s vocal mike was well above it. I’ve rarely enjoyed height information this clearly.
A special forté are the generous dimensions of the virtual stage and its image localization. Even height perspective is clear on the right recordings. In this price class that's highly unusual.
I pinched this off of cnoevils topic on kef Q900 review from 6 moons audio.com
Thanks! nopiano your comment led me to read it.:rofl: someone elses brain has been tricked.
A special forté are the generous dimensions of the virtual stage and its image localization. Even height perspective is clear on the right recordings. In this price class that's highly unusual.
I pinched this off of cnoevils topic on kef Q900 review from 6 moons audio.com
Thanks! nopiano your comment led me to read it.:rofl: someone elses brain has been tricked.
To answer OP's question my answer is yes, in particular, when listening to organ playing inside a church.
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