Hi,I was told when claiming i could tell the different heights of a kick drum (down low) and high hats at head height in my soundstage that there was a topic claiming that this was false and just a trick of the mind,i thought soundstage was meant to be 3 dimensional :? .Does anyone else lay claim to be able to tell the difference in height of instruments or vocals in their soundstage or do i need medication.
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Can you hear the different heights of instruments or vocals in your soundstage?
- Thread starter damonster
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Although it would be technically possible to do, right?
Guessing here, but it would need to be digital, you'd need 4 speakers in a square formation in front of you and record the original to 4 channels using 2 centered stereo mics, one top, one bottom, so you get top left, top right, bottom left, bottom right.
Why the hll do they not do that, it would be awesome to have the height in with the sound,
Hmm.
Guessing here, but it would need to be digital, you'd need 4 speakers in a square formation in front of you and record the original to 4 channels using 2 centered stereo mics, one top, one bottom, so you get top left, top right, bottom left, bottom right.
Why the hll do they not do that, it would be awesome to have the height in with the sound,
Hmm.
Soundstage has width and depth, created either naturally during the recording session or artificially during the mixing process. To a certain extent it has height because your speakers project a sound image which has height. But it's a fixed height, other than any effect caused by the driver positions. Other than that, no, basically it's your brain telling you where certain sounds should be. Low-piched sounds we perceive as being at foot-level or even down there in the basement, and high-pitched sounds we perceive as being way up there. This can also possibly be attributed to how our ears react to sounds at different frequencies and wavelengths. For example there is a common belief that under around 60Hz we even lose perception of L&R to a certain degree, let alone height, hence why 5.1 audio only has the '.1' channel for the subwoofer.
But in truth, no, you really can't move a sound up or down using just two speakers on the same vertical plane.
But in truth, no, you really can't move a sound up or down using just two speakers on the same vertical plane.
Yeah it would work I guess, but I'm not sure if using four speakers up front would compromise the sound in other ways.
Nor can I think of any studios or mixing desks designed to record and mix that way.
Nor can I think of any studios or mixing desks designed to record and mix that way.
Petherick
Well-known member
MajorFubar said:
Well, not quite the case. Phase information, timing and other psychoacoustic effects can make us believe that recorded music from 2 speakers has height. I've certainly witnessed it.
Multi-channel audio can do the same, perhaps in a 'better' way when properly set up. Personally, I find that for simple acoustic ('real') music, 2 channel works better than multi-channel. But I love listening to some music in 5.1.
But that's just your brain's interpretation of what your ears are hearing. The sound isn't actually higher or lower in the soundstage. To really achieve it would need multiple speakers at different heights.
Petherick
Well-known member
I suppose that depends upon what you mean by 'soundstage'. To me, it's all in my head.
I'm not sure that the height element of the soundstage could be (any more) accurately reproduced with multiple speakers on one plane, unless the recording was made with corresponding microphones. The way our ears and brains work has evolved precisely for the purpose of placing sounds in a three dimensional environment. If anything, we tend to be confused if the information is distorted in any way by, for instance, echo or unusual absorbtion / reflection patterns.
I'm not sure that the height element of the soundstage could be (any more) accurately reproduced with multiple speakers on one plane, unless the recording was made with corresponding microphones. The way our ears and brains work has evolved precisely for the purpose of placing sounds in a three dimensional environment. If anything, we tend to be confused if the information is distorted in any way by, for instance, echo or unusual absorbtion / reflection patterns.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
You may also find, particularly with floorstanders, that higher frequencies seem higher because the HF unit is at the top, and the bass driver is usually set lower, which could fool your ears into thinking where sounds are coming from. I suppose the best test is to hear the same tracks on the KEF Blades, because from the seating position, ALL frequencies are seemingly coming from one point (per speaker, of course). If one of those tracks you feel demonstrates height information via these, then you will be correct in what you're hearing.
So when you hear width of soundstage wider than your walls is this different beacause its engineered and height is just your brain interpretating low level noise coming at you from a low level .so your cones dont project out evenly in all directions.What i am trying to get at is with width your speakers feel like they can project 3 feet outside of your living room walls but bass couldnt sound as if it is being projected from 3 feet below your floor level.bass always sounds like it reaches me at foot level is this just brain association.Am i making sense .:wall:
BenLaw
Well-known member
FrankHarveyHiFi said:
Or using any full range speaker, but this is a good point. What is your experience of height in soundstage with the blades?
MajorFubar said:
So, provided one understands the pyschoacoustics, one can mix 'height' into the recording, then, in the same way one can place instruments and voices in the left/right and front/back planes by adjusting the mix.
FrankHarveyHiFi said:
Hi David, I don't know much about these speakers, how does this work with the two side firing woofers? I've read we don't get much/any positional information below certain frequencies, which explains how a single subwoofer works. Are the side firing woofers effectively dual/stereo sub-woofers?
Thanks.
alchemist 1
Well-known member
ELO Out of the Blue on vinyl, definitely creates the impression of height on Mr Blue Sky. Don't ask me how it works. I have not heard it on CD, but I assume it would be the same.
hammill said:
So you have experienced the height thing aswell.ill put the medication on hold then.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
BenLaw said:
True.
They do produce a large soundstage. I do have tracks that sound like the OP has described, but I have to say I've never really tested that aspect so can't really say - no doubt I'll be listening out for it next time!
No, you are not maddamonster said:
BenLaw
Well-known member
damonster said:
Yep! It's not something I know the answer to and I think it was the major's earlier post that I was referring to. I shall follow the debate with interest BenLaw
Well-known member
FrankHarveyHiFi said:
Fair enough, let us know what you think when you've listened out for it. Can't think off the top of my head of any forum members with full range speakers but if there are any it would be interesting to hear from them too.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
WinterRacer said:
The side drivers produce the same frequency range (up to 350Hz) and are opposing, and therefore force cancelling. In each speaker there is a pair above the level of the UniQ driver, and a pair below, so your brain perceives the frequencies they produce to be right between the two pairs, which happens to be where the UniQ is. KEF call this "single apparent source" rather than "single point source", as that would technically be incorrect.
Whether low frequencies are directional or detectable is debateable, and I think it also depends how good the sub is - a cheaper sub with a cheaper cabinet and higher distortion driver will draw attention to itself - a low distortion, exceptionally built one will audibly disappear, as I've particularly found recently (even though I'm about 5 feet from it). But they're usually below 80Hz - the bass drivers of the Blade cover up to 350Hz, which is directional, but apparently phasing and coherence etc has been addressed so doesn't cause any issues.
I'm not sure how convincing it would be. You can sit at a mixing desk and control absolutely L&R position of your tracks using controls on the desk. You're right that depth is kind of only 'in your mind' as well, but it occurs because of a definite physical reason, ie you're hearing a sound reproduced by two speakers some distance apart. Whereas with height, you're asking for two speakers on the same plane to give the illusion of sounds being at different heights. Maybe it can be done with very clever phychoaccoustics, but I can't get my head round how or why it would work, and it's never going to be as convincing as having four speakers up front.Andrew Everard said:
Seems that to some posting on this thread it's quite convincing enough. Similarly I've heard recordings made with techniques such as Holophonics, and while I'm not entirely convinced by the theory behind how that particular technique works, the effect can be highly convincing.
Not as convincing as a Meridian recording I heard at an AES conference using speakers around, above and below the listener, agreed, but within its limits pretty good – although the effect is to a great deal dependent on the equipment through which the content is played (with phase coherence being especially relevant) and the room in which it is delivered.
Not as convincing as a Meridian recording I heard at an AES conference using speakers around, above and below the listener, agreed, but within its limits pretty good – although the effect is to a great deal dependent on the equipment through which the content is played (with phase coherence being especially relevant) and the room in which it is delivered.
Is it not possible to use a technique similar to the binaural bbc trial where they created convincing surround sound using only stereo headphones. The principle was that we only have two ears and distinguish where a sound is originating from by the delay in of hearing it in one ear to the other so they should be able to create a surround image using two sources. Would this not be true of sound on a vertical access as well? I know the NBC trial used several different algorithms to suit different head shapes and headphones so I am not sure how it could be mixed to provide the effect to suit everyone.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radio3/2011/12/the-festival-of-nine-lessons-and-carols-in-surround-sound.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radio3/2011/12/the-festival-of-nine-lessons-and-carols-in-surround-sound.shtml
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