I think there's probably two issues. One which is definite and undeniable fact that two speakers cannot literally reproduce sounds at different heights, which is where I was coming from, then there's the other issue of psychoacoustics, whereby either deliberately or by accident some sounds are perceived by your ears/brain to be lower or higher in the soundstage than others. I'm not saying that people who perceive different height are kidding themselves, in fact my own brain/ears sees cymbals 'up there' and kick drums 'down there'. It's probably how most people hear things. But it's not 'real' in so far as how L&R is real. That's what I meant when I said at the start that the perception is in your mind.
def lugs said:
Yes, perfectly possible, but much easier with headphones than with speakers, when you have the effects of unpredictable room interactions (as in everyone's listening room is different!).
Guess you could do it if you sat between two speakers in one of these...
/sites/whathifi.com/files/images/onkyo_anechoic.jpg
... but then that would be like being inside giant headphones!
I can understand that if you have 2 speakers on the same level that you could get the effect of voices appear in the centre of the 2 speakers ,but then on the outside of each speaker the sound can seem like it being projected outside of the room ,so could this not work to a degree from the top and bottom of each speaker to a certain extent.
Speaking of headphones, go on YouTube and search for binaural stereo such as the virtual haircut. Very clever stuff indeed, though I personally don't get the perception of the scissors passing over my head like some people do. Massive width and depth to the soundstage, though you really do need to listen on headphones: each channel is designed to be heard by only one ear, unlike conventional stereo.
MajorFubar said:
It's exactly as real as hearing something up in the trees and being able to pinpoint it, a sound coming from above you is different to the same sound coming from in front of you (phase differences and suchlike as was mentioned previously), if you can artificially add those differences (and you can) then the sound, if properly reproduced, will appear to come from a different place and your brain isn't capable of telling the difference between "natural" height and "added" height.
The_Lhc said:
That argument doesn't stack up. The significant difference of a real sound from the trees is its different location, not phase differences and suchlike. Not saying it can't be done artificially, but this argument wouldn't show why.
Not quite, if I hear something up in the trees like a bird chirping then it's physically coming from a high-up source. If you record that sound with two mikes at ear-level such as like in a binaural dummy head, then listen on headphones, you won't get the same perception that it's coming from above your head. (Or at least certainly I don't, let's put it that way.) I accept that perhaps it's possible you could achieve it with clever audio processing.The_Lhc said:
The_Lhc said:
Here we go AGAIN. YYYYYYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN.
I see some people make very clever comparisons between stereo for music reproduction purposes and real life with birds in the trees. how many bands give concerts with some of their musicians on the ground and others hanging from the trees?
you couldn't possibly tell the difference in height between cymbal and snare drum when listening to a percussionist from 4-5m away. distances are too close to be any significant for our perception. you could tell where in space snare drum and cymbals are positioned if you were sitting on percussionist's stool but that's not how reproduced music should be perceived and recorded IMO.
I don't know. maybe if you had a recording with percussion section captured in one go by two omnidirectional mics which were placed very close to drums on a particular level (like snare drum level), maybe then you could tell that cymbals are actually higher because that's how mics will capture it. they will capture spacial information too and that's how we can perceive aural space, by comparing original sound with reflected. but if the percussion was multi-miced through a tracker then there's no way any spacial information was smuggled into the final recording. and any stereo image that there is in such recordings is just the effect of post-production in studio, not recording.
you couldn't possibly tell the difference in height between cymbal and snare drum when listening to a percussionist from 4-5m away. distances are too close to be any significant for our perception. you could tell where in space snare drum and cymbals are positioned if you were sitting on percussionist's stool but that's not how reproduced music should be perceived and recorded IMO.
I don't know. maybe if you had a recording with percussion section captured in one go by two omnidirectional mics which were placed very close to drums on a particular level (like snare drum level), maybe then you could tell that cymbals are actually higher because that's how mics will capture it. they will capture spacial information too and that's how we can perceive aural space, by comparing original sound with reflected. but if the percussion was multi-miced through a tracker then there's no way any spacial information was smuggled into the final recording. and any stereo image that there is in such recordings is just the effect of post-production in studio, not recording.
Is the answer to this not in Dolby Prologic llZ? Front height speakers with the necessary electronics.
Only asking.
Only asking.
No, what I said was (or at least what I meant was), two speakers can't literally produce sounds of different heights, the perception of height/vertical placement is your ears and brain interpretting what they hear a certain way. Like I said, I too perceive that cymbals are 'up there' and bass-dums and 'down there', but other than the (relatively) small difference in placement between my speakers' drivers, it's an illusion that's in my head. You certainly can't go up to any mixing desk I've ever known and turn some knob which adjusts the vertical position of a sound in a stereo field. Left right yes, and front to back yes, but not vertically. That would need additional speakers to be anything other than an illusion.damonster said:
On most recordings I hear sounds separated vertically as well as horizontally.
For example, on Adele's "19" (deluxe edition on Spotify), her voice on the track "Hometown Glory" sounds higher up in the soundstage on the live version than it does on the studio version. So it's not just a case of higher frequency sounds appearing higher because the tweeter is higher (though that may well be an additional factor with many speakers).
Whether this is what was intended by the engineer, a flaw (or feature) in my system, or something going on inside my brain I don't know. Who cares if it sounds good?
:dance:
For example, on Adele's "19" (deluxe edition on Spotify), her voice on the track "Hometown Glory" sounds higher up in the soundstage on the live version than it does on the studio version. So it's not just a case of higher frequency sounds appearing higher because the tweeter is higher (though that may well be an additional factor with many speakers).
Whether this is what was intended by the engineer, a flaw (or feature) in my system, or something going on inside my brain I don't know. Who cares if it sounds good?
:dance:
Ok, so far the only instruments people have said to have heard height differences between (on a single track) are drum and cymbals, which are at extremes of the frequency range and emanate from different drivers. What about, say, single male vocal playing acoustic guitar. The reality is the voice should be substantially higher than the guitar but notes will probably be produced by the same driver. Does anyone have any experience of this?
And if you want something to really mess your head up, get your headphones and listen to this MP3..
This my friends is 3D sound.. https://www.turboclouds.com/?d=PGG2UFD9
(but only works if you got headphones)
Comments?
This my friends is 3D sound.. https://www.turboclouds.com/?d=PGG2UFD9
(but only works if you got headphones)
Comments?
What also would be nice to know is that is there a hidden science behind it all .Is it down to mixing or do some speaker designers have a knowledge of how to create this effect or try to aim to create this effect or is it a mere fluke or simple fact that some peoples brains are decieved by this.I find i listen to music late in the evening with my eyes closed which helps me concentrate on the sound direction rather than looking at the speakers.
MajorFubar said:
Sorry i must of misunderstood what you were saying.I dont want to come across as trying to point score.The points you have been making have been really helpfull .Thats what these forums are all about .Thanks for your input so far.
FYI.. Wharfedale were first to put the tweeter below the midrange. Fairly sure of that.
Because then the tweeter then is more at ear-level.
Because then the tweeter then is more at ear-level.
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