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Cables the neverending story?

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cheeseboy

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QuestForThe13thNote said:
its almost impossible to predict how a speaker will sound in its entirety from measurements, as there are way to many factors and they are too complex.
I actually agree with you.... to a certain extent. The measurements at least tell you what frequency the speakers can playback. I mean if you have a speaker that only goes down to say 1hz, then you know the bass will not be as good as one that does 20hz, because it physically can't produce those tones.
 

cheeseboy

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quest - I suggest you have a read through this - https://www.head-fi.org/threads/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths.486598/

It's an excellent collation of tests, links and other such things which I think you should try and have a read of. If there's anything you disagre with, see if you can actually work out a way to disprove it, in the same way those people have taken the time to prove something.
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

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cheeseboy said:
QuestForThe13thNote said:
There isn't any science studies on abx studies,
firstly abx is just one form of blind testing. If you can't even discuss this properly we have no hope of moving forward. And yes, there are sceintific studies on abx. Here's a couple to get your started http://asa.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1121/1.1917190 and http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=15022

QuestForThe13thNote said:
it's just Jim and Dave with their mates. Lots of forums. And when people take from that it's unintelligent imho.
just proven wrong, see above.

QuestForThe13thNote said:
Oh and this is another one that falls under one of the rules I mentioned. That it's not always about expense in cables.
I agree, it's about how well the cable is constructed. Once it reaches a certain standard, physics would tell us that you aren't going to get any extra out of it.

QuestForThe13thNote said:
But so long as someone incorrectly implies that it is, or that they can't get their head around the fact that more expensive systems are generally more revealing, because of human reasons like jealousy or envy etc, it becomes perceived to be a debate about someone's hi fi being better than another, or affordability, and the British aren't very good at ever accepting these things.
but isn't that what you do and have done - you infer that people are jealous because they can't afford stuff, and that must be the reason why the have an opposite view point. What should be blindingly obvious to you, but does seem to escape you is that some people have a different viewpoint for a myriad of reasons that are nothing to do with jealousy or envy. Maybe you're just projecting, who knows. But either way, you are wrong if you want to use it as a blanket rule. Sure, there's always going to be the odd person that gets envious and takes an opposite view point, i wouldn't disagree with that, but it's more of an exception than a rule.
im absolutely able to discuss. Please let's do so. I'll take a look and feedback my comments on those two links.

on your next point, I think you are on my side. If it's up to a point and construction I'd agree. A cable frozen in snow for some auspicious marketing thing doesn't convince me, like you, it seems. But I don't think we are talking about that. My hypothesis is always 'good cables, not necessarily expensive ones, can make improvements to sound quality, in the right systems'. I think you agree.

What reason could you postulate for someone believing all cables sound the same, from having a system that may not reveal a cable (that another system does reveal), when they don't own the other more revealing system, and submit their judgements about it not being revealing in another system are absolute. It must come down to human factors. Ie their hi fi is good (for it may or probably really be) so therefore nothing can be better to an extent the cable makes a difference.
 

cheeseboy

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QuestForThe13thNote said:
on your next point, I think you are on my side. If it's up to a point and construction I'd agree. A cable frozen in snow for some auspicious marketing thing doesn't convince me, like you, it seems. But I don't think we are talking about that. My hypothesis is always 'good cables, not necessarily expensive ones, can make improvements to sound quality, in the right systems'. I think you agree.
up to a point yes. But I think what point that is would differ between us :) Also, if I was trying to discern if there were differences, I would blind test them as I have done in the past. It's usually at that point that any differences are so minute I would believe more in environment differences over cable based differences.

QuestForThe13thNote said:
What reason could you postulate for someone believing all cables sound the same, from having a system that may not reveal a cable (that another system does reveal), when they don't own the other more revealing system, and submit their judgements about it not being revealing in another system are absolute. It must come down to human factors. Ie their hi fi is good (for it may or probably really be) so therefore nothing can be better to an extent the cable makes a difference.
the issue with this is that you are using yourself and your experience as a benchmark. Sorry to say, but you are not *the* benchmark. you are just some other person who spends a lot of money on hifi equipment. Have you ever been in a studio and listened to a mix in there? If you want revealing, that's the place to do it, not when there is a myraid of other things that could change the sound, such as furniture, curtains, windows etc. So when you are talking about changing cables and them making a difference do you do the minscule things such as making sure the speakers go back in exactly the same place every time? I mean it only takes a mm or two out and the sound reflections could hit a bit of furniture that they weren't hitting before, and hey presto it sounds different - nothing to do with the cables at all and eveything to do with environment.
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

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cheeseboy said:
quest - I suggest you have a read through this - https://www.head-fi.org/threads/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths.486598/

It's an excellent collation of tests, links and other such things which I think you should try and have a read of. If there's anything you disagre with, see if you can actually work out a way to disprove it, in the same way those people have taken the time to prove something.
they are not scientific studies, these are the ones I've seen before. Amateur low sample tests, unrepeated, not critiqued, no stat testing, often no hypothesis, often no conclusions or analysis, unrepresentative of the real world differences with cables, lacking study on the familiarity of hi fi and it's importance in abx, using people off the street unfamiliar with systems. These are the types gullible people who believe these because of the 'I believe this theory. How come? Oh Dave told me'. People who can't really think for themselves, or are familiar with the sorts of issues as to why people might account hearing differences at home, and make both positive and negative cases for the benefits of cables. Why don't they start off with the reverse hypothesis that cables make a difference and examine the conditions as to why people hear them, and make a case for the believers. Because all they are trying to do often, is not have a hypothesis and make conclusions based on no hypothesis. You can't do that in science. It's meaningless.

do you really think I could walk into audio t and start picking out differences in cables of a system I'm unfamiliar, versus doing it at home on a system and acoustic environment I've listened for hundreds of hours. This is what these tests don't do. It's a huge drawback. It's why people can pick out cables on good hi fi at home.
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

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Have you also paid for the article. If not how do you form an opinion if not read. If you have paid, can you maybe post here?
 

cheeseboy

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QuestForThe13thNote said:
they are not scientific studies, these are the ones I've seen before
.

some of them actually are. Usually the AES ones. Already your ability to open in to debate is losing all credibility.

QuestForThe13thNote said:
Amateur low sample tests, unrepeated, not critiqued, no stat testing, often no hypothesis, often no conclusions or analysis, unrepresentative of the real world differences with cables, lacking study on the familiarity of hi fi and it's importance in abx, using people off the street unfamiliar with systems.
.

yet even though they are that, they are a lot more scientific than "oh, just change the cable" "wow it's so night and day difference". They have taken the time out to remove biases etc.

QuestForThe13thNote said:
These are the types gullible people who believe these because o.......
sorry I'll stop you there. I've go no time for debate if you are going to use ad hominem as a form of defence. Try somebody else. You;ve offered nothing other than your opinion. I've given you links to back up what I say.
 
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QuestForThe13thNote

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cheeseboy said:
QuestForThe13thNote said:
on your next point, I think you are on my side. If it's up to a point and construction I'd agree. A cable frozen in snow for some auspicious marketing thing doesn't convince me, like you, it seems. But I don't think we are talking about that. My hypothesis is always 'good cables, not necessarily expensive ones, can make improvements to sound quality, in the right systems'. I think you agree.
up to a point yes. But I think what point that is would differ between us :) Also, if I was trying to discern if there were differences, I would blind test them as I have done in the past. It's usually at that point that any differences are so minute I would believe more in environment differences over cable based differences.

QuestForThe13thNote said:
What reason could you postulate for someone believing all cables sound the same, from having a system that may not reveal a cable (that another system does reveal), when they don't own the other more revealing system, and submit their judgements about it not being revealing in another system are absolute. It must come down to human factors. Ie their hi fi is good (for it may or probably really be) so therefore nothing can be better to an extent the cable makes a difference.
the issue with this is that you are using yourself and your experience as a benchmark. Sorry to say, but you are not *the* benchmark. you are just some other person who spends a lot of money on hifi equipment. Have you ever been in a studio and listened to a mix in there? If you want revealing, that's the place to do it, not when there is a myraid of other things that could change the sound, such as furniture, curtains, windows etc. So when you are talking about changing cables and them making a difference do you do the minscule things such as making sure the speakers go back in exactly the same place every time? I mean it only takes a mm or two out and the sound reflections could hit a bit of furniture that they weren't hitting before, and hey presto it sounds different - nothing to do with the cables at all and eveything to do with environment.
it might be minute. But the point is this. If you've won the lottery you'd maybe see value in a minute change. But you have to look at your own system too to work out if it will benefit to the good ie any change in speaker cables (both cheap and expensive cables) bringing sq improvements.

No im not the benchmark. Far from it. Absolutely. My experience told me that a cheaper but very decent hi fi around £2k didn't reveal huge differences in speaker wire, whatever I tried. I stuck with £1.50 a meter Cambridge audio stuff. But when I went to a £15k system with speakers reputed to be some of the best you can get at their price, cables did reveal differences, and often big ones relatively speaking to amps and speakers etc. A £6.20 a meter cable performed better than a £25 per metre one, quite markedly. I'd then expect if I had a really good performing system at £30k, the best you could get, that it would be even more sensitive to the right cables. Again not necessarily expensive ones. So the point is the benchmark will be much higher and I'm not authoritative on that. It's blindingly obvious the detail retrieval of such a more expensive hi fi to a less expensive one, will make the system hugely sensitive to different cables.

but you can see that if someone has been at a level of experience to apply thinking to someone who is at another level of experience, it's impossible to apply those judgements across the board, as people do in the cable debate. Like bill who owns budget gear (and there is nothing wrong with that and I'm not casting aspersions just presenting a line of argument) but doesn't agree with my hypothesis I stated.

yes and everything has been in exactly the same place with no furniture changes. Same listening position. Lived here 5 years. But your last paragraph point is not clear. All the purpose of hi fi at home is , is it's comparative. It's nothing about having the best or being the best. If you improve it, you do so by what was there before.
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

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You are believing a study you haven't read. Right? Did you download the aes one? It's not loosing credibility if we don't even know what it's saying, what points and argument it presents.

No they are not more scientific, because they don't take account of ones ability to get used to hi fi. Nobody is saying changing a cable is like changing speakers, no way. So you can't apply thinking that because you think they test something different to the way we select hi fi on being used to stuff, that they are more representative. That is very twisted logic.

Well it is right to point out gullibility, if people don't think for themselves or have any sense of balance. What is the hypothesis, what do they show you. What amateur tests have you looked at which show the opposite. Because you see any credible science person has to do that. You haven't given links to back up what you say. You've given links to something someone says which you don't seem to have read, and it sounds like you believe it because of their level of authority. I say everything is up for testing and critiquing and it's not for something or someone just to profess this authority to have any standing. Believability in the sense of something to properly test, comes from presenting good arguments, not being an authority. What I expect they may not have even considered is the effects on home familiarity of systems. If their study discounts that, or hasn't thought of it, it goes out the window for me, because many millions of hi fi hobbyists will have heard the effects of cables worldwide at home, by what is credible to believe on all the reasons this may be so eg construction, purity etc etc. The tests need to do abx tests at home on familiar stuff. I did it on mine on two cables, one very good in my system, and another bad, and it was easy to tell. My friend, who knows my hi fi, did so too. Bizarrely when I changed speakers the 'bad' cable was ok.
 

cheeseboy

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quest - you're contradicting yourself. And as I said, you engage in ad homienm attacks to try and get your point over, so like I said, I won't be debating this issue with you.
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

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cheeseboy said:
quest - I suggest you have a read through this - https://www.head-fi.org/threads/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths.486598/

It's an excellent collation of tests, links and other such things which I think you should try and have a read of. If there's anything you disagre with, see if you can actually work out a way to disprove it, in the same way those people have taken the time to prove something.
the point is they haven't proved anything to the reality of the situation we buy cables on systems we know. If 10 men get around a system and 'show' strangers can't discern two seperate systems (the test with the red sheet), can we apply to that to someone who knows the system week in week out.
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

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cheeseboy said:
quest - you're contradicting yourself. And as I said, you engage in ad homienm attacks to try and get your point over, so like I said, I won't be debating this issue with you.
I'm not interested in attacking you, if you get upset because you think it's personal that's regrettable. why not answer some of the points I've raised. I won't bs you.
 

cheeseboy

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QuestForThe13thNote said:
cheeseboy said:
quest - you're contradicting yourself. And as I said, you engage in ad homienm attacks to try and get your point over, so like I said, I won't be debating this issue with you.
I'm not interested in attacking you, if you get upset because you think it's personal that's regrettable. why not answer some of the points I've raised. I won't bs you.
i'm not upset and it's not personal to me. You just seem to be personally attacking anybody that doesn't agree with you en mass, you're contradicting yourself and making out opinions to be fact. Until you can get over that, as i say, I'm not debating owt.
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

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No not debating them as fact, but just on considered experience. Maybe not the experience of others. But I think you probably agree with me, they make differences, so there is maybe no point to a debate anyway. I'm not personally attacking anyone, it's just have you read the study? You usually only really get to the bottom of what people think, if you follow debate rather than just accept what they say. I'll try and put it in a way I hope you don't see it as an attack. It's not.
 

Leif

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So we get back to the "Your hifi is not revelaing enough argument". And yet blind tests have shown that experienced reviewers cannot distinguish between different amps (assuming comparable frequencey responses of course). But of course blind tests have no value, in the eyes of some. And yet completely subjective views have more value. Eh?

I have no problem with someone buying cables or whatever because they think they improve the sound. But they can't claim that their views have any validity outside of their own experience, and to suggest that they have more value than blind tests is complete nonsense. Especially when their views sometimes contradict manufacturer's specifications.

I'm afraid we will always come back to the "I have golden ears" and "Audio lies outside of known science" arguments.
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

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Leif said:
So we get back to the "Your hifi is not revelaing enough argument". And yet blind tests have shown that experienced reviewers cannot distinguish between different amps (assuming comparable frequencey responses of course). But of course blind tests have no value, in the eyes of some. And yet completely subjective views have more value. Eh?

I have no problem with someone buying cables or whatever because they think they improve the sound. But they can't claim that their views have any validity outside of their own experience, and to suggest that they have more value than blind tests is complete nonsense. Especially when their views sometimes contradict manufacturer's specifications.

I'm afraid we will always come back to the "I have golden ears" and "Audio lies outside of known science" arguments.
blind tests of whom, people who don't know the hi fi and have not lived with it for a while. Let me tell you this story Leif. My parents came to visit a while back, I'd changed my speakers since when they last came, but they didn't notice and they didn't comment on them being better. They clearly are to me, and lots who have gone between the two ranges. But this just shows how hi fi is individual and the familiarity involved in it. My sister doesn't think there is much value than a good iPod dock.

so familiarity in hi fi is huge. Someone can claim their views have validity outside their experience, otherwise what are people on this forum doing giving advice on lots of stuff. A consensus of opinion is there that they do make a difference in my hypothesis, just as the opposite, but the former is based on hard experience, the latter on hot air. Your views about blind tests don't relate to the real world way we need to apply using a different cable in our home environment, that we are very sensitive too. If you try cables you will see that, but until then you don't and won't know. A catch 22. You will see that if you borrow a cable, and you could conceivably think it's a very good change, but just you'd rather accept someone else's opinion but not try and form your own on your own experiences, which are all important and count more than mine or anyone else's. Especially in the sphere of hi fi where it's often system dependant. I find that odd when you'd do it of speakers but accept a sub sect group.

You talk in a way which doesn't pin down the issues at hand to make broad generalisations which aren't helpful. Like talking of audio outside known science. What are you talking about? So let's talk about familiarity of hi fi and how sensitive we are to changes.
 

Leif

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QuestForThe13thNote said:
blind tests of whom, people who don't know the hi fi and have not lived with it for a while.
If you actually looked at the links others have given you, and read around, you'd find that blind test participants have included hi-fi reviewers, and people who sell them for a living. One chap I can think of was convinced amps sounded different until he did blind tests with level matching. Now he believes that amps are transparent, unless the manufacturer deliberately 'voices' them i.e. introduces distortion in some form.
 

grimharry

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“Upgraded” my interconnects and speaker cables can’t say the results were overly impressive might have slightly better bass but if anything it’s probably bigger cross sectional area. Was going to try blind testing but I kept knocking things over and getting the phase wrong while wearing a blindfold *biggrin* Then again maybe my system is too cheap and nasty.
 

CnoEvil

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grimharry said:
Was going to try blind testing but I kept knocking things over and getting the phase wrong while wearing a blindfold *biggrin*
Just imagine the damage you could do if you went Double Blind....you could end up in the Public Toilets, instead of the Public House. *sad*
 

grimharry

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CnoEvil said:
grimharry said:
Was going to try blind testing but I kept knocking things over and getting the phase wrong while wearing a blindfold *biggrin*
Just imagine the damage you could do if you went Double Blind....two of you could end up in the Public Toilets, instead of the Public House.
Now that is a frightening thought*wacko*
 

CnoEvil

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grimharry said:
CnoEvil said:
grimharry said:
Was going to try blind testing but I kept knocking things over and getting the phase wrong while wearing a blindfold *biggrin*
Just imagine the damage you could do if you went Double Blind....two of you could end up in the Public Toilets, instead of the Public House.
Now that is a frightening thought*wacko*
It was so frightening, that I changed the post. *biggrin*
 

Leif

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CnoEvil said:
grimharry said:
Was going to try blind testing but I kept knocking things over and getting the phase wrong while wearing a blindfold *biggrin*
Just imagine the damage you could do if you went Double Blind....you could end up in the Public Toilets, instead of the Public House. *sad*
I find that if I test when blind drunk, the sound improves immeasureably, until I vomit over the speakers, then it gets all bubbly. Thank goodness it wasn't my own system. I never did find out why I've been banned from the local hifi shops' demo rooms.
 

CnoEvil

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Leif said:
I find that if I test when blind drunk, the sound improves immeasureably, until I vomit over the speakers, then it gets all bubbly. Thank goodness it wasn't my own system. I never did find out why I've been banned from the local hifi shops' demo rooms.
Now that's something I hadn't anticipated in my list of qualification points.

Ooh......we've nearly reached the 100 post mark, qualifying this as a half decent Cable Thread. *yahoo*
 

grimharry

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Leif said:
CnoEvil said:
grimharry said:
Was going to try blind testing but I kept knocking things over and getting the phase wrong while wearing a blindfold *biggrin*
Just imagine the damage you could do if you went Double Blind....you could end up in the Public Toilets, instead of the Public House. *sad*
I find that if I test when blind drunk, the sound improves immeasureably, until I vomit over the speakers, then it gets all bubbly. Thank goodness it wasn't my own system. I never did find out why I've been banned from the local hifi shops' demo rooms.
Does the vomit help eq the system in terms of room treatment?
 

andyjm

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CnoEvil said:
Now that's something I hadn't anticipated in my list of qualification points.

Ooh......we've nearly reached the 100 post mark, qualifying this as a half decent Cable Thread. *yahoo*
This thread had the interesting angle that the main protagonist (the 'note) was a biologist, which you would have thought would have given him some insight into the fallibility of human perception and the strength of expectation bias. I had high hopes.

It was all going so well, but then he played the "Emperor's new clothes" card (my hifi is bigger / better / more resolving than your hifi), and I am afraid at that point it failed the decent cable thread test.

Just as an aside, why does no one ever discuss cable inductance, resistance or capacitance on these threads? It is honestly the only things that matter.

Dammit, I have played the 'I am an engineer, and I know what I am talking about" card. The thread is now a dead duck.
 

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