C D player to retrieve lost bass

[Vladimir]

Primare CD32

Output Level: 2.1Vrms

Krell S-350AV

Output Level: 2Vrms

Leema Antila IIS ECO

Output Level: 2.3Vrms

The industry standard is 2Vrms. Looks like someone increased their output by 15% to boost their sales.

 

[Vladimir]

Why does a CDP need two large heatsinks like a power amp? No components on the left side attached to the heatsink at all. :?

 

[nopiano]

I'd just like to counter the main flow of advice here that appears to say that a CD can't affect the bass response. Well, in my humble opinion, this is totally wrong and inaccurate advice. Yes, room acoustics will affect the sound you here and yes not all speakers are born equal. Some are much better than others in the bass department BUT no speaker can reproduce bass that is not already there in the system.

I experimented last night with 3 different CDP's in my system. With amp and speakers / positioning at a constant, the only difference in the system was the "source components". Well I am astounded by the difference a good, ney REALLY good CDP can make. One CDP in particular made my speakers seem like a different pair. The bass was very weighty, deep but well controlled. Drums in rock music had a real slam to them. But the "weight" and depth of the bass seemed to increase incredibly with this one CDP.

So the OP was right to ask the question but I feel that the responses so far which discuss speakers etc exclusively are forgetting that the "no bass in, no bass out" rule still applies to any source component. A better CDP would potentially sort out the missing bass.

Steve, I agree with your general points, but you seem to have overlooked that the cdp did not change, so somehow the bass that has been 'lost' can only because of the other changes.

 

[davedotco]

Primare CD32

Output Level: 2.1Vrms

Krell S-350AV

Output Level: 2Vrms

Leema Antila IIS ECO

Output Level: 2.3Vrms

The industry standard is 2Vrms. Looks like someone increased their output by 15% to boost their sales.

Vlad, understand exactly what you are saying but these are most likely manufacturers ratings and not entirely trustworthy.

Some 14-15 years back i did some (uk) marketing work for a serious US manufacturer of CD players. Our integrated players had onboard digital volume controls, quite rare at that time, with a maximum output of 2.2 volts.

When we tested the product against other hi-end players we found many to have even higher outputs than that.

There is another point too, 'our' player had preset outputs (internally) that preserved the full range of the 24 bit output, but allowed it to be reduced to 1.1 volts, 550 mvolts etc. Even with the digital volume at maximun, this meant that we could reduce output levels to suit high game pre and integrated amplifiers.

Strangely feedback from customers and dealers all suggested that the player sounded 'better' at maximum output, despite the fact that, output level excepted, the output measurements (distortion, noise etc) were identical.

This even affected my own listening. My integrated (valve) amplifier had a nominal input sensitivity of 500mv so I reduced the maximum output of the CD player to 1.1 volts and was immediately dissapointed. I had to carry out some very careful blind testing (on myself) to convince me that what I was hearing was not 'real'. It wasn't, but for a good while it was pretty convincing.

 

[Vladimir]

Dave, its the oldest manufacturer / salesman trick in the book and you know it.

 

[the record spot]

In my case i am certainly not having bass problems but I'm merely pointing out that improving the bass or getting deeper, weightier bass is an issue with the source, not the speakers. I have already proven that to myself. I can get much heavier and deeper bass by changing the CDP over. One unit is clearly better than the other. If the CDP screws it up at the beginning and "loses it" in translation, it doesn't matter how big/small your room is or what speakers you have. You won't get it back, pure and simple.

What's it going to "lose" though? A note? The underlying bass track? Neither.

I've owned plenty of CDPs in my time and they all transmit what's on the disc. Of all the players I've had (probably a dozen over twenty years, but quite a few in recent years), they haven't exhibited huge differences. I've had greater impact on sound by moving my speakers six inches either way and adjusting the toe-in a few degrees.

In tunrtable systems, or other analogue setups, then yes, the source is the key item. For digital though, it's speakers and amp first. CD players are by and large drawn from a narrower palette from an audio perspective IMO.

 

[davedotco]

Dave, its the oldest manufacturer / salesman trick in the book and you know it.

The point being made though is that, despite knowing that it is a 'trick' it is very hard not to be taken in by it.

I had to go to quite elaborate lengths to prove, to my own satisfaction, that the reduced output of the CD player was exactly the same as the full output, I had to have someone else perform the switching otherwise it simply didn't work.

 

[GCE]

It will be interesting to test some cdp only with headphones...

btw: England is a good team with great fairplay :

first half way better than Italy... :cheers:

 

[Vladimir]

Dave, its the oldest manufacturer / salesman trick in the book and you know it.

The point being made though is that, despite knowing that it is a 'trick' it is very hard not to be taken in by it.

I had to go to quite elaborate lengths to prove, to my own satisfaction, that the reduced output of the CD player was exactly the same as the full output, I had to have someone else perform the switching otherwise it simply didn't work.

I don't mind it if it was just harmless cheating making your amp going louder sooner. But guess what it does to amplifier's opamps?

 

[the record spot]

It will be interesting to test some cdp only with headphones...

btw: England is a good team with great fairplay :

first half way better than Italy... :cheers:

Sadly, these things are won over ninety minutes...!

 

[steve4232]

"What's it going to "lose" though? A note? The underlying bass track? Neither.

I've owned plenty of CDPs in my time and they all transmit what's on the disc. Of all the players I've had (probably a dozen over twenty years, but quite a few in recent years), they haven't exhibited huge differences. I've had greater impact on sound by moving my speakers six inches either way and adjusting the toe-in a few degrees.

In tunrtable systems, or other analogue setups, then yes, the source is the key item. For digital though, it's speakers and amp first. CD players are by and large drawn from a narrower palette from an audio perspective IMO"

Well I've had several CDP's as well and the only thing they've had in common is that none of them have sounded remotely similar to each other. Some have offered much heavier and weightier bass whilst others offer a totally different perspective on the same recording - maybe brighter airier and more detailed top-end. Where can a CDP "lose" it, you ask. Well, I guess, although I certainly don't know that the choice of DAC might have something to do with it. Also, the analogue circuitry and possibly even the transport reading the coded disc. Clearly some players are very noticeably better at reproducing deep bass. Those that fail are "losing" it somewhere, either in the analogue stages or during the data retrieval or conversion from digital to analogue. The simple truth remains that if they aren't losing it, the CDP's "with it", must be adding / boosting something that wasn't there to start with.

 

[the record spot]

I think any bit of electronics that added something not there on the original is something I am comfortable living without. That said, I doubt any CD player "loses" data per se.

 

[davedotco]

Dave, its the oldest manufacturer / salesman trick in the book and you know it.

The point being made though is that, despite knowing that it is a 'trick' it is very hard not to be taken in by it.

I had to go to quite elaborate lengths to prove, to my own satisfaction, that the reduced output of the CD player was exactly the same as the full output, I had to have someone else perform the switching otherwise it simply didn't work.

I don't mind it if it was just harmless cheating making your amp going louder sooner. But guess what it does to amplifier's opamps?

I don't think my amplifier has op-amps. All valve apparently, for the signal path at least.

 

[Vladimir]

I don't think my amplifier has op-amps. All valve apparently, for the signal path at least.

I thought you had active monitors.

 

[steve4232]

"That said, I doubt any CD player "loses" data per se."

A very obvious thought occurred to me about this issue v speakers / speaker placement.

Why not just use headphones to monitor the playback of the CDP's, thus removing the room, speaker / placement entirely from the equation? I've done this and my findings were exactly the same, namely that the Leema had better bass than the others. So CDP's can "lose" data somewhere down the line. Transports and DACS together do contribute hugely to the overall sound and therefore the resolution of audible frequencies. If all CDP's can read equally well (and I'm certain they cannot) then the DACs arguably contribute the most to "loss" of bass.

After all if all CDP's had the same bass and quality of sound overall (as some peope unwittingly believe) why would anyone ever buy anything apart from a £39 CD player from a supermarket?

 

[the record spot]

See my thread on my four way shootout recently. Probably easier than rehash it all here!

 

[davedotco]

I don't think my amplifier has op-amps. All valve apparently, for the signal path at least.

I thought you had active monitors.

That is my desktop system, currently in use as my main (only) system.

My 'proper' system involves a EL34 based valve integrated driving a pair of stand mount ribbon hybrids (dipole tweeters). Sadly it is in storage in another country.

I use the (non remote) amp with the volume pre-set about half way and use the digital volume on the CD player. The unbalanced output on the CD player is limited to 1.1 volts as discussed above so that the digital volume is used close to full output.

 

[Vladimir]

Any chance those are RAAL ribbon tweeters?

 

[davedotco]

Any chance those are RAAL ribbon tweeters?

I think the RAAL are closed back, I have these.

Open back tweeters, designed by Bo Bengtsson. (Now Transmission Audio)

They are tiny, 4.5 inch woofer but sound fantastic on all but the largest scale music.

 

[Vladimir]

They look absolutely delicious. I will grab the opportunity to hear that concept of dipole ribbon and bookshelf mid/woofer when I can. I bet it kills at imaging, depth of stage and ambience.

BTW RAAL make a dipole one as well.

Raal "Dipole 140-15D" Ribbon Driver

 

[davedotco]

They look absolutely delicious. I will grab the opportunity to hear that concept of dipole ribbon and bookshelf mid/woofer when I can. I bet it kills at imaging, depth of stage and ambience.

BTW RAAL make a dipole one as well.

Raal "Dipole 140-15D" Ribbon Driver

Cool, but the price........ :O

The Fountek ribbons (and their clones) are very much more affordable and pretty good. Probably not among the best available but not bad.

I am also a big fan of the folded ribbon (derived from the original Heil AMT). Modern magnet technology has improved them out of sight, and the Germans seem very keen (Adam, Elac etc). I had the good fortune to visit the Elac factory back around the turn of the century and watched their 'Jet' tweeter being built. Very fine company but very niche.

Check out the 'Rock' and 'Boulder' models.........

http://unityaudioproducts.co.uk/

 

[Vladimir]

Have you given the Roksan TR-5 speakers a listen?

 

[Adeandlou]

Thanks to everyone for replying to my post

A quick update on the issue. Moving/adjusting toe-in angle of speakers made no improvement even tried setting up system in another room, still no improvement so tried my old B & W 601s- still no differance.

So my problem would appear to be my new amp,

Once again thanks for everyones replys

 

[Native_bon]

Thanks to everyone for replying to my post

A quick update on the issue. Moving/adjusting toe-in angle of speakers made no improvement even tried setting up system in another room, still no improvement so tried my old B & W 601s- still no differance.

So my problem would appear to be my new amp,

Once again thanks for everyones replys

You may not like to hear it but,its as simple as A B C, the sound of the new amp is not for you.

 

[James7]

Very frustrating. Would you be able to sell on your amps and look fir something in the £800-1000 price range? The Creek Evolution 50a for example, or the latest in that bracket from Naim, Musical Fidelity, etc. i am not sufficiently familiar with your jew speakers to recommend a particular amp, but there are certainly choices. Best of luck.