C D player to retrieve lost bass

[Adeandlou]

Hi there,

I am looking for some information/advice on an alternative cd player to regain the fine bass detail that a system i once had could (before going down the A V rout) retrieve, after i suposeably upgraded recently.

Previous system (Bi-amped)

Marantz cd 63 K I signature

Arcam Alpha 7 intragrated amp

Arcam Alpha 8 power amp

B & W 601 s1 speakers

Reasonable cables and interconects totaling aprox £300

Present system (Bi-amped)

Marantz cd 63 K I signature

Arcam F M J A19 intragated amp

Arcam Alpha 10 power amp

B & W 684 s2 speakers

Same cables and interconects

The problem i have is that this system although costing considerably more than the previous one just cannot retrieve delicate base detail in the same way as the old system could to the point that on some songs theese delicate bass notes are not just reduced they are totaly missing. I suspect that it is the speakers but i am very reluctant to change theese as higher frequency and vocal detail is fantastic. So i am hoping there is a cd player (old or new) that could retrieve the missing bass without forsaking the higher detail.

So if anyone has any experiance along theese lines and can offer any advice or sujestions, i would be extremely greatfull.

Cheers Adrian

 

[CnoEvil]

Has the room (or the way it's furnished) changed....or could these bigger speakers be effecting your Room Modes differently, thus effing up the sound?

 

[Vladimir]

Now the sound is overwhelmed with bass and boomy? I'm thinking the same thing as Cno, the speakers are overwhelming the room. How big is it? Can you snap a photo and show it to us? (use Tinypic.com to upload and give us the link).

Speaker positioning, moving them away from walls will help. Changing the CDP is NOT a solution and it will improve nothing.

 

[tino]

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/audio-analogue-paganini-cd-player

One on eBay just went for £436

But as has been pointed out ... there are potentially other problems which might need addressing.

You can 'correct' room interaction with one of these.

 

[hifikrazy]

You can 'correct' room interaction with one of these.

Try not to resort to using this. I brought this DSP gadget home to try and I didn't like what it did to my sound at all.

 

[matt49]

I agree with previous posters.

Changing the CD player might make a tiny difference to the FR, but even if it is audible, it will pale into insignificance compared to adjusting or changing your speakers and how they interact with the room.

If it's domestically acceptable, some acoustic treatment may do the job. If not then a DSpeaker is worth trying, as tino suggests. Failing that, you'll have to change the speakers.

Matt

 

[the record spot]

Reposition the speakers, or swap them out. A CD player change won't help here.

 

[Glacialpath]

How long have you been listening to the current set up? If the speakers are new they will need to ware in. You could also be in the wrong place for the pressure waves put out by the bass. Try standing to the side of the speakers slightly or walk around the room until you hit a sweet spot and see if the bass note you say are missing become audibal.

Another thing to try if none of this works is a DAC or a subwoofer. or both.

 

[Adeandlou]

Thanks for all the replys

In response - I have moved home since i had the previous system so cannot make direct comparisons with furnishings etc, I have tried changing the toe-in angle and the distance from the walls but nothing helps.

The room is aprox 5mts x 4mts .

I supose i am going to have to get the 601 s out of the loft and do a direct comparison with the 684s2 s, just wondering how gutted i will feel if ive spent £800 for nothing.

Once again thanks for the replys

Cheers

 

[Overdose]

There are some likely culprits to be your problem and none are the CD player (unless it's broken).

Speaker positioning

Room acoustics

And last but not least, have you connected everything up correctly, are the speakers in phase?

 

[Neptune_Twilight]

If you are using spiked stands is there any rocking of the stands (or speakers on stands) or rubber pads or similar, even slight movement can cause the speaker itself to move slightly esp. on bass notes instead of the driver moving air? Some years ago I thought a driver was defective when actually there was some movement of the stands.

 

[Adeandlou]

Thanks again for the replys

Absolutly no speaker wobble and spikes are definately right through the carpet and underlay.

Have checked and double checked all conections.

As i mentioned i will try my old B & W 601 s, if nothing else it will hopefully rule out my new speakers as the problem.

I have had the 684s for aprox 5 weeks and have had a lot of use, Definately enough to be run-in.

Cheers

 

[BigH]

I would say its the room, is it similar size and construction. Try your old speakers and see what the difference is.

 

[plastic penguin]

Hi there,

I am looking for some information/advice on an alternative cd player to regain the fine bass detail that a system i once had could (before going down the A V rout) retrieve, after i suposeably upgraded recently.

Previous system (Bi-amped)

Marantz cd 63 K I signature

Arcam Alpha 7 intragrated amp

Arcam Alpha 8 power amp

B & W 601 s1 speakers

Reasonable cables and interconects totaling aprox £300

Present system (Bi-amped)

Marantz cd 63 K I signature

Arcam F M J A19 intragated amp

Arcam Alpha 10 power amp

B & W 684 s2 speakers

Same cables and interconects

The problem i have is that this system although costing considerably more than the previous one just cannot retrieve delicate base detail in the same way as the old system could to the point that on some songs theese delicate bass notes are not just reduced they are totaly missing. I suspect that it is the speakers but i am very reluctant to change theese as higher frequency and vocal detail is fantastic. So i am hoping there is a cd player (old or new) that could retrieve the missing bass without forsaking the higher detail.

So if anyone has any experiance along theese lines and can offer any advice or sujestions, i would be extremely greatfull.

Cheers Adrian

I know you probably don't want to hear this but...

I owned RS6s for many years and last year changed to PMC standmounts. The difference in the LFs was instant: The detail in lower mid and bass is better defined, which allow the nuances to be conveyed easier. But the low end dynamics of the RS6s are a little better for obvious reasons.

My guess is that you're losing a little insight, although I bet every other sonic trait the 684s offer are better.

 

[Native_bon]

Same old story of traditional mix & match hifi problems.. Am sure its the speakers. I had the very same feeling when i listened to them.. They did not even last 5mins when i demoed them. But hey, it all boils down to taste.

 

[James7]

A synergy issue seems most likely - possibly between the speakers and room though the fact the speakers are front-ported makes this seem less likely; more likely I am afraid between speakers and amp - replacing one or the other may be the only long-term solution, and if so I would look at the speakers first/ There are so many options both stand-mount and floorstanding at about the price of the 684s - standmount-wise, for example, Martin Logan Motion 15, KEF LS50, PMC DB1i if you can find any, ATC SCM 7 would all work well I would have thought and there are others.

 

[steve4232]

I'd just like to counter the main flow of advice here that appears to say that a CD can't affect the bass response. Well, in my humble opinion, this is totally wrong and inaccurate advice. Yes, room acoustics will affect the sound you here and yes not all speakers are born equal. Some are much better than others in the bass department BUT no speaker can reproduce bass that is not already there in the system.

I experimented last night with 3 different CDP's in my system. With amp and speakers / positioning at a constant, the only difference in the system was the "source components". Well I am astounded by the difference a good, ney REALLY good CDP can make. One CDP in particular made my speakers seem like a different pair. The bass was very weighty, deep but well controlled. Drums in rock music had a real slam to them. But the "weight" and depth of the bass seemed to increase incredibly with this one CDP.

So the OP was right to ask the question but I feel that the responses so far which discuss speakers etc exclusively are forgetting that the "no bass in, no bass out" rule still applies to any source component. A better CDP would potentially sort out the missing bass.

 

[Glacialpath]

I'd just like to counter the main flow of advice here that appears to say that a CD can't affect the bass response. Well, in my humble opinion, this is totally wrong and inaccurate advice. Yes, room acoustics will affect the sound you here and yes not all speakers are born equal. Some are much better than others in the bass department BUT no speaker can reproduce bass that is not already there in the system.

I experimented last night with 3 different CDP's in my system. With amp and speakers / positioning at a constant, the only difference in the system was the "source components". Well I am astounded by the difference a good, ney REALLY good CDP can make. One CDP in particular made my speakers seem like a different pair. The bass was very weighty, deep but well controlled. Drums in rock music had a real slam to them. But the "weight" and depth of the bass seemed to increase incredibly with this one CDP.

So the OP was right to ask the question but I feel that the responses so far which discuss speakers etc exclusively are forgetting that the "no bass in, no bass out" rule still applies to any source component. A better CDP would potentially sort out the missing bass.

As this reply points out and not discounting any of the other replies as I think they are all worthy suggestions. but looking at the isue from all angles is the best way.

To back up the above reply a bit. I tried a Marantz CD600OSE against my Cambridge Audio D500SE and the CA sounded so much better. I tried them with and without my DAC too.

 

[Native_bon]

I'd just like to counter the main flow of advice here that appears to say that a CD can't affect the bass response. Well, in my humble opinion, this is totally wrong and inaccurate advice. Yes, room acoustics will affect the sound you here and yes not all speakers are born equal. Some are much better than others in the bass department BUT no speaker can reproduce bass that is not already there in the system.

I experimented last night with 3 different CDP's in my system. With amp and speakers / positioning at a constant, the only difference in the system was the "source components". Well I am astounded by the difference a good, ney REALLY good CDP can make. One CDP in particular made my speakers seem like a different pair. The bass was very weighty, deep but well controlled. Drums in rock music had a real slam to them. But the "weight" and depth of the bass seemed to increase incredibly with this one CDP.

So the OP was right to ask the question but I feel that the responses so far which discuss speakers etc exclusively are forgetting that the "no bass in, no bass out" rule still applies to any source component. A better CDP would potentially sort out the missing bass.

As this reply points out and not discounting any of the other replies as I think they are all worthy suggestions. but looking at the isue from all angles is the best way.

To back up the above reply a bit. I tried a Marantz CD600OSE against my Cambridge Audio D500SE and the CA sounded so much better. I tried them with and without my DAC too.

If you are having problems in the bass department no cd player will repiar that. Also depends on the severity of the problem.. Yes cdp will make a diffirence but no were as much or remotely as much as a speaker change or room acuostics.

 

[steve4232]

"If you are having problems in the bass department no cd player will repiar that. Also depends on the severity of the problem.. Yes cdp will make a diffirence but no were as much or remotely as much as a speaker change or room acuostics."

In my case i am certainly not having bass problems but I'm merely pointing out that improving the bass or getting deeper, weightier bass is an issue with the source, not the speakers. I have already proven that to myself. I can get much heavier and deeper bass by changing the CDP over. One unit is clearly better than the other. If the CDP screws it up at the beginning and "loses it" in translation, it doesn't matter how big/small your room is or what speakers you have. You won't get it back, pure and simple.

Like everything else the source component is key in any system. Too much worry and anxiety is caused by fretting about the speakers. They are one of the least important elements in the chain.

 

[BigH]

"If you are having problems in the bass department no cd player will repiar that. Also depends on the severity of the problem.. Yes cdp will make a diffirence but no were as much or remotely as much as a speaker change or room acuostics."

In my case i am certainly not having bass problems but I'm merely pointing out that improving the bass or getting deeper, weightier bass is an issue with the source, not the speakers. I have already proven that to myself. I can get much heavier and deeper bass by changing the CDP over. One unit is clearly better than the other. If the CDP screws it up at the beginning and "loses it" in translation, it doesn't matter how big/small your room is or what speakers you have. You won't get it back, pure and simple.

Like everything else the source component is key in any system. Too much worry and anxiety is caused by fretting about the speakers. They are one of the least important elements in the chain.

It may help if you could say which CDPs you were using.

 

[steve4232]

Certainly:

Bel Canto (forgotten the model!)

Primare CD32

Krell S-350AV

Leema Antila IIS ECO

FWIW, the Leema beats them all in the "sounding like analogue" department with meaty weighty bass that goes very deep with sensational grip. The others sounded quite "light" by comparison.

 

[BigH]

Certainly:

Bel Canto (forgotten the model!)

Primare CD32

Krell S-350AV

Leema Antila IIS ECO

FWIW, the Leema beats them all in the "sounding like analogue" department with meaty weighty bass that goes very deep with sensational grip. The others sounded quite "light" by comparison.

OK thanks.

 

[Native_bon]

Certainly:

Bel Canto (forgotten the model!)

Primare CD32

Krell S-350AV

Leema Antila IIS ECO

FWIW, the Leema beats them all in the "sounding like analogue" department with meaty weighty bass that goes very deep with sensational grip. The others sounded quite "light" by comparison.

Blind tested?

 

[James7]

I certainly wouldn't say CD players can have no impact on sound. But the sound the OP is trying to get back to was produced by a system fronted by the same CD player as in his current system. It is the amp and speakers that he has changed, and it is this change that has seemingly led to the dissatisfaction he has expressed. So in this case I am not sure changing the CD player will have a major impact. If the amp / speaker / room synergy is lacking and producing bass boom, there is only so much you can do to improve this without a change in either room (acoustic treatment, etc) amp or speakers. My feeling is room treatment is likely to have less impact than if the speakers were rear-ported, in which case bungs or bass traps positioned behind the speakers might be just the ticket. Which leaves unfortunately, the amp or speakers - I think it would be worth auditioning alternatives at least, starting with those loft-based old speakers of the OP.

That doesn't mean of course that a change of CD player wouldn't improve things. Models like the Leema and Bel Canto mentioned above - it's the CD2 I think - would provide a major jump in SQ over the OP's elderly Marantz, as would some cheaper models like the Audiolab 8200CD and the latest models from Naim, Cyrus et al.