Buying Hi-Fi Components - Allocation of Budgeted Amount to each Separate

[Anonymous]

Why do we have to compare new with new only?

In the real world you can buy either new or 2nd hand.

Are we going to live in the real world on this forum, or are we going to live in some fantasy land where 2nd hand kit is not easily available?

Do you not understand that you have to compare like with like?
Put it this way. A friend bought speakers for £1000 that were worth £10000 when new. Therefore, they should be compared with speakers at the £10000 mark, not his buy price. Clearly they'll be better than than other new speakers at the £1000 price point, but that's only because they are being compared with models in a price bracket to which they do not belong.

 

[Jason36]

Well for whats its worth I have a Capian M1 Pre (£1500 new) and Caspian M1 Power (£1500 new) with Caspia M1 CDP (£1500 new) and Rega Planar 3 TT (£150 sh) as sources through a pair of Castle Richmond Speakers (£350 new) and they sound amazing!

Ok I'm changing the speakers to ATC SCM11's (just under £1000) but if I didnt change my speakers would I be dissapinted? NO I wouldnt. Likewise I'm sure if I spent £2000 on a pair of new speakers the sound would be better still, but I think at the end of the day there are no set rules in HiFi and you just have to follow your own ears...experiment and try different combinations and I'm sure you will be surprised at what can be achieved.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Do you not understand that you have to compare like with like?

I'd back Linsayt on this one. unlike you, I didn't get any impresion that anybody is comparing anything. what I understood from his posts is just that you can get world class performance for very little money if you know what and where to look for. I didn't get impression that he was comparing speakers wich retailed for 500 GBP in the sixties to 500 GBP speakers being sold now. contrary, he stated that speakers he was mentioning were the best in their class regardles of price. so effectively if he was comparing anything to anything it was 10 000 GBP (in todays prices as point out by someone else) speakers from the sixties to cost-no-object todays speakers.

 

[BenLaw]

Not utter nonsense at all.

Please name me a £10,000 speaker with a better midrange than Quad ESL 57's?

Please name me a £10,000 speaker that's more dynamic - or even better as an all-round speaker than a scruffy pair of Altec Model 19's or EV Sentry III's?

Please name me a £10,000 speaker with better bass and a less fatiguing sound than a pair of Bozak Concert Grands or Symphonys?

The £500 speakers that I'm talking about were all high-end when they were new. They're still high-end today in terms of sound quality. They're not high-end in terms of price.

You can get £2500 active ATC 50's from internet auction sites and hi-fi forum classifieds. I once saw a pair sell for £1450.

Thanks to all who've responded to this

Lindsayt - it seems the speakers you name aren't necessarily '£500 speakers' anyway. Obviously you have to compare (contemporary) RRP with RRP - just look at WHF group tests to illustrate. Obviously you can buy ATC SCM50s for under RRP second hand - but they remain a £10k speaker, just being sold second hand. FWIW I'd put the ATC studio soft dome mid range driver up against anything else, but it will obviously be subjective.

Your main point is simply wrong. A £500 speaker might be better in one area than a more expensive speaker. But if the more expensive speaker is well designed, it will be better overall because it will be better in all the other areas. This is not simply compromise, it is overall quality. I would not buy any component based solely on quality midrange (the example you give) as I'd only enjoy music that only had midrange, ie no music at all.

Jason - I feel the same way about my kit. How much longer til the SCM11s arrive?

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

back to the topic...

I may be a little bit unorthodox about this one but I'll share my experiences anyway. most posters are saying that one should spend most of the funds on the speakers. some would even go so far to say that source and amp are largely insignificant in the chain therefore it's justifiable to spend a lot more on speakers than electonics. well, my experiences say something completly different.

my first hi-fi was rather inexpensive 1200 GBP system. break down was:

CDP+ amp -> 83%

speakers -> 17% (obviously )

it sounded very nice overlall but I soon upgraded speakers as I was planning on upgrading them as soon as I had funds. the break down then was:

CDP + amp -> 46%

speakers -> 54%

and it began to sound awful. to a point that I couldn't enjoy listening to music anymore. it were the speakers guilty of what happened. they have too good resolution so they easily showed shortcomings of the electonics part. so I decided to upgrade the amp (even though I didn't initialy to upgrade on electronics) because I though it would bring most noticable difference. and new amp did bring a noticeble improvement. break down turned to:

CDP -> 9%

amp -> 56%

speakers -> 35%

but I was so positively surprised with the change amp brought so I decided to upgrade the CDP too. to be completly honest, before buying the new CDP I thought it would mainly bring aesthetical improvement and not in SQ (my old CDP uses high quality burr brown DAC chip). and yet again, how surpised I was to find out that it was CDP that probably brought single most significant improvement. new CDP uses high quality analog output stage. but the change would go unnoticed if the amp and speakers were crap. now break dow is as follows:

CDP -> 46%

amp -> 34%

speakers -> 20%

however, if I were to upgrade anything it would be amp and speakers again because I don't think I would get much more performance unless I paid considerably much more than I already did.

concluding, it is best not to skimp on electronics because with good electronics even poor speakers will sound good. reverse is not true IMO. outstanding speakers will only show how bad electronis are. you need to reach a certain price point with electronics first to safely upgrade on speakers.

 

[lindsayt]

Do you not understand that you have to compare like with like?

Put it this way. A friend bought speakers for £1000 that were worth £10000 when new. Therefore, they should be compared with speakers at the £10000 mark, not his buy price. Clearly they'll be better than than other new speakers at the £1000 price point, but that's only because they are being compared with models in a price bracket to which they do not belong.

Excellent post. Your anecdote illustrates a point that I agree with 100%:

Anyone with £1000 to spend on a pair of speakers who puts sound quality as their highest priority should not buy new. They should buy 2nd hand.

Next question is "what 2nd hand speakers should they buy for £1000?" Well, my response would be "That depends. That depends on what compromises you're happiest with."

Now if we move onto someone with £10,000 to spend on a pair of speakers. What should they buy? Well, they could buy a pair of new speakers for £10,000. Or a pair of 2nd hand speakers for £10,000 that might have been £20,000 new. Or a pair of 2nd hand speakers for £1000 or £500 (that might have ben £10,000 new). In this case, the best compromise speakers might be the £10,000 2nd hand ones or they might be the £500 2nd hand ones. Or they might be something inbetween. The £500 ones have the nice benefit of allowing £9,500 to be spent on other things.

So, coming back to the OP of this thread. What proportion of your budget should you spend on source, amp, speakers? My advice for best system sound quality would be:

On a budget of £600 spend £500 on the speakers and the rest on amp and source.

On a budget of £1000 spend £500 on speakers and the rest on amp and source.

On a budget of £5000 spend £500 on speakers and the rest on amp and source.

On a budget of £10,000 spend £500 on speakers, £4,500 on amp and source, leaving £5,000 to spend on something more interesting than hi-fi.

 

[CnoEvil]

This thread is hard enough to get your head around.. with new kit,... but once you throw 2nd hand kit/speakers into the mix it becomes a nightmare, as the baseline keeps changing. :~

 

[StevenKay]

oldric_naubhoff

Hi

Thank you so much for sharing your own experience in such great details and steps.

Your explanation is so convincing that I am inclined to agree with you to a great extent.

Thanks again for sparing your time and effort for this. It has helped to clear the mystery to some extent.

 

[Anonymous]

Do you not understand that you have to compare like with like?

Put it this way. A friend bought speakers for £1000 that were worth £10000 when new. Therefore, they should be compared with speakers at the £10000 mark, not his buy price. Clearly they'll be better than than other new speakers at the £1000 price point, but that's only because they are being compared with models in a price bracket to which they do not belong.

Excellent post. Your anecdote illustrates a point that I agree with 100%:

Anyone with £1000 to spend on a pair of speakers who puts sound quality as their highest priority should not buy new. They should buy 2nd hand.

Next question is "what 2nd hand speakers should they buy for £1000?" Well, my response would be "That depends. That depends on what compromises you're happiest with."

Now if we move onto someone with £10,000 to spend on a pair of speakers. What should they buy? Well, they could buy a pair of new speakers for £10,000. Or a pair of 2nd hand speakers for £10,000 that might have been £20,000 new. Or a pair of 2nd hand speakers for £1000 or £500 (that might have ben £10,000 new). In this case, the best compromise speakers might be the £10,000 2nd hand ones or they might be the £500 2nd hand ones. Or they might be something inbetween. The £500 ones have the nice benefit of allowing £9,500 to be spent on other things.

So, coming back to the OP of this thread. What proportion of your budget should you spend on source, amp, speakers? My advice for best system sound quality would be:

On a budget of £600 spend £500 on the speakers and the rest on amp and source.

On a budget of £1000 spend £500 on speakers and the rest on amp and source.

On a budget of £5000 spend £500 on speakers and the rest on amp and source.

On a budget of £10,000 spend £500 on speakers, £4,500 on amp and source, leaving £5,000 to spend on something more interesting than hi-fi.

Now you're being obtuse and really rather silly. You have to compare like with like. I'm beginning to agree with another poster, you're trolling. Shame,as this was an interesting topic

 

[Anonymous]

Oldric, I don't doubt your reasoning but it does depend. For example, my speakers cost 3000€, the amp 900€ and the DAC plus per supply 250 €. it sounds really excellent. When I used my 250€ speakers, it sounded not terribly good.

My conclusion is that, while you may be right in saying good speakers highlight the deficiencies in your electronics, they'll still sound much, much better than the other way round. Either that, or the Nait and DAC I have are equal to 3000€ amps and Dacs.

 

[Jason36]

Jason - I feel the same way about my kit. How much longer til the SCM11s arrive?

I believe they have arrived at the shop Ben, I just need to arrange to get down and collect them hopefully next weekend as I am in the Derby area. OOOOH New Speakers !!

 

[FennerMachine]

I have a pair of £700.00 floor stand speakers and a pair of £995.00 standmouters with £400.00 of stands.

The floor standers sound similar on a £800.00 AVR to £2000.00 of pre/power amp, but the pre/power being noticeably better.

The standmounters sound better overall than the floor standers on the AVR but MUCH better with the pre/power.

With my experience I would spend more on speakers than source and amp.

Having said that you do need good enough source and amp to make the best of speakers so you don't want to spend too much on the speakers unless buying Second hand or ex-demo.

 

[jaxwired]

it depends...

 

[KevH]

I used to think splashing all the cash on the speakers was the way forward simply because the response chart of a cd and amp are identical for any pretty much any component regardless of price. Meanwhile speakers are all over the place.

Unfortunately I paid the price for this mistake, when I decided to use a portable CD as a source and a disco amp as an amp - Big mistake, I ended up paying a fortune for an amp that sounded shocking.

Since then I rely on my personal experience and here it is:

Firstly a good source is important, they used to say that without a decent source all the other components were just attempting to polish T**ds. I've heard a Wadia CD player on my Amp and speakers and it sounded amazing, each instrument rendered exactly in space. I tried to raise the cash but unfortunately failed.

Secondly Amp, a good amp will make any speaker sound good, I once hooked up a pair of 50 quid speakers I bought from a bloke down the pub to my 3k Copeland hybrid pre/power amp and was totally blown away. The sound was amazingly realistic with a pin point sound stage.

Speakers are less important, a good source and amp will make any speaker shine. That's not to say there aren't bad speakers, many budget speakers can sound boomy or boxy, but these qualities can disappear with a decent quality amp. Remember a good amp will control a speaker properly thus eliminating many of the issues that a speaker can have.

So as for a split, in an ideal world, if I had say 10k to spend i'd spend a big chunk on the source, say the Chord DAC 4.5k second chunk on the amp say the Leema Tucana 3.5k and the rest on the speakers.

 

[KevH]

Duplicate posted in error

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Does not matter. Just spend far more than u can afford and be miserable like everyone else.

 

[chebby]

.

 

[tyranniux42]

I honestly can't be bothered posting an opinion here after reading the rest. Just shows how polarised views can be and how subjective hifi is. Find a good dealer and listen to as much as possible is all that can be said really.

please feel free to look at what I have ended up with at the moment and ignore completely!

just for reference though i have heard my speakers with amplification many orders above my current amps level and the same with the source, which sounded phenomenal. Would the ovator s600 or 800's sound better with that same set up? Most definitely in the right room...and what can I deduce from this? Spend as much as you can afford on whatever sounds best to you.. I think.

kind regards

 

[jjbomber]

Amplifier 0%

CD Player 0%

AVI Speakers 110%

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

[tyranniux42]

Amplifier 0%

CD Player 0%

AVI Speakers 110%

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

dont think -10% on sources would sound good on any system, even the fabled avi's ;-)

 

[KevH]

I agree, system matching is the most important thing, just picking stuff with 5 stars and in the right price bracket never works.

Look at me, I wondered into a Hi-fi shop one morning completely disillusioned with the whole thing and walked out several hours later with 4ks worth of Hi-fi!

I spent an entire day swapping components until we came up with something that worked for me.

And not surprisingly the budget kept edging up and up and up.

If I'd have been able to stretch to the entire system i'd have walked away with a 10k system (6k source, 3k amp 1.5k speakers), and that was back in the 90s.

But the most important thing is system matching, the guy in the shop tried to set me up with a Krell amp with Dynaudio speakers, it sounded awful, very boomy. I have since heard the same Dynaudio's on a Meridian system and they sounded really nice.

 

[godfer]

GIGO - Garbage In, Garbage Out!

 

[shafesk]

My theory has changed quite a bit since I started out on hi-fi. Now my priorities are spending the maximum amount of my budget on speakers and an amplifier say 65% with 20% on a cdp or dac (or even less if you are going for a classic used cdp such as the cd63KI) and the remaining 5% on cables. If the source is analogue though then I will spend equal on speaker amp and tt.

 

[CnoEvil]

If the source is analogue though then I will spend equal on speaker amp and tt.

I agree, possibly spending more on the TT....and a TT even has its own hierarchy going on. Back in the day, you often spent half your budget on it, and then split the other 50% equally between amp and speakers.

IMO. The percentage amount for a source went down for CD, and has dropped quite a lot further, with the introduction of Streamers.