Black Ravioli

[steve_1979]

Just my 2 pence worth.

Last year I tried Black Ravioli in a shop and couldn't hear any difference. I tried it with both solid state amplifiers and a valve amp and it made no noticable difference to the sound.

I also tried putting the amplifiers on top of one of the speakers (without any Black Ravioli) and played bassy music to maximise the vibrations being transmitred to them and even this didn't make any difference to the sound quality.

My conclusion from this experiment is that a small amount of vibration shouldn't have any effect on an amplifier. If an amplifier does sound different when it's vibrated a little bit then it should be avoided IMO.

I remember, but it's not quite the whole story.

When I asked about the demo, you said the shop guy had placed the pads under the feet instead of under the chasis. If placed under the feet it has little or no effect, and I pointed this out at the time.

Here is the thread (post 4): http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/this-is-the-black-ravioli-investigation-thread-it-may-be-fun?page=13

You are more prepared than most to give stuff a try, but whatever chance this has to work, it needs to used as instructed.

I do intend to give them another try with them placed in various different positions. One day soon...

 

[DocG]

As all perception is subjective, it becomes a philosophical question if a listener perceives a change whether that change is real. It is certainly real to the listener, and ultimately that is all the listener cares about.

Listening is done with the brain, not just the ears and is the result of many inputs, not just pressure waves on the eardrum.

+1

 

[CnoEvil]

I do intend to give them another try with them placed in various different positions. One day soon...

I look forward to it, whatever the outcome is...........I have always found your assessments to be fair and BS free.

This time, refer to the website and place as directed.....and I will then have nothing to complain about.

I have to say that I appreciate this more respectful approach.

 

[Singslinger]

I know this thread is about Black Ravioli but I'd like to share my experience with something similar.

I was recently lent a set of Shoon Mook Mpingo discs by a dealer. Two of us in the shop had heard clear differences with and without the discs in place but I wasn't convinced (a set of six cost around £300) so the dealer offered a home trial. I had the discs for 3 days and 4 friends were invited to audition. All were skeptical at what appeared to be voodoo audio; yet all 4 heard clear differences when the discs were properly placed.

However, here's the thing - although all agreed the sound differed, not all agreed that it was better. I too felt that different did not equate to better/improved so I returned the discs. But it was an eye-opener for me not to write off anything related to audio without listening first.

 

[CnoEvil]

I know this thread is about Black Ravioli but I'd like to share my experience with something similar. I was recently lent a set of Shoon Mook Mpingo discs by a dealer. Two of us in the shop had heard clear differences with and without the discs in place but I wasn't convinced (a set of six cost around £300) so the dealer offered a home trial. I had the discs for 3 days and 4 friends were invited to audition. All were skeptical at what appeared to be voodoo audio; yet all 4 heard clear differences when the discs were properly placed. However, here's the thing - although all agreed the sound differed, not all agreed that it was better. I too felt that different did not equate to better/improved so I returned the discs. But it was an eye-opener for me not to write off anything related to audio without listening first.

What did they do to the sound, and did you all agree in what way it was changed?

What were they made from?

 

[jcbrum]

Listening is done with the brain, not just the ears and is the result of many inputs, not just pressure waves on the eardrum.

If you play a downloaded music track from solid state electronics, using loudspeakers, what other inputs do you suppose you are getting, apart from pressure waves on your eardrums ?

JC

 

[Singslinger]

I know this thread is about Black Ravioli but I'd like to share my experience with something similar. I was recently lent a set of Shoon Mook Mpingo discs by a dealer. Two of us in the shop had heard clear differences with and without the discs in place but I wasn't convinced (a set of six cost around £300) so the dealer offered a home trial. I had the discs for 3 days and 4 friends were invited to audition. All were skeptical at what appeared to be voodoo audio; yet all 4 heard clear differences when the discs were properly placed. However, here's the thing - although all agreed the sound differed, not all agreed that it was better. I too felt that different did not equate to better/improved so I returned the discs. But it was an eye-opener for me not to write off anything related to audio without listening first.

What did they do to the sound, and did you all agree in what way it was changed?

What were they made from?

They are made from some exotic type of wood that I believe resonate at certain frequencies that can cancel out others which might be problematic. They look like black carrom seeds and apparently can be placed anywhere on your hifi but the dealer recommended using them on top of speakers. I found they softened the highs produced by the ribbon tweeters on my ProAc K6s. Some of my friends liked the rounding-off of the treble when the discs were in place since it gave a slightly warmer presentation but I like to hear more detail at those frequencies so I wasn't convinced that warmer was better.

 

[andyjm]

If you play a downloaded music track from solid state electronics, using loudspeakers, what other inputs do you suppose you are getting, apart from pressure waves on your eardrums ?

JC, you are being too literal with your analysis.

The brain interprets the firing of nerve cells on the base of hairs in the cochlear as sound. It does not do this in isolation, but incorporates input from the other senses, modified by whatever phsycological state the listener is in.

Closing your eyes when listening improves imageing as your brain loses visual cues and is free to imagine where the instruments might be on the soundstage. My system always sounds better after a glass of wine, and sounds crap when I have had miserable journey home from work.

My point is that listening is more than just pressure waves - it is the subjective interpretation of the pressure waves that matter and that interpretation process is not constant but varies depending on a variety of parameters.

Expectation bias comes into this. Lets say I have purchased small wooden pyramids to put under my speaker cables. I bought them in a fancy shop, from a knowledgeable (?) assistant, and they were expensive. The HiFi press love them. Are you surprised that I think the sound is different? It is to me - and to be clear I am not imagining it - the sound IS different to me because my brain has processed it differently.

So when we get these heated debates about 'take it home and try it, you will tell the difference' I am quite sure that many (most?) actually hear a difference, even though the sound is completely unchanged. Why anyone on this forum thinks that they are immune from this effect is beyond me.

So here is the philosophical question - if I buy a product that makes me process the sound differently in my head and therefore I hear a change even though the sound itself is unchanged, has the product worked?

 

[jcbrum]

If you play a downloaded music track from solid state electronics, using loudspeakers, what other inputs do you suppose you are getting, apart from pressure waves on your eardrums ?

JC, you are being too literal with your analysis.

The brain interprets the firing of nerve cells on the base of hairs in the cochlear as sound. It does not do this in isolation, but incorporates input from the other senses, modified by whatever phsycological state the listener is in.

Closing your eyes when listening improves imageing as your brain loses visual cues and is free to imagine where the instruments might be on the soundstage. My system always sounds better after a glass of wine, and sounds crap when I have had miserable journey home from work.

My point is that listening is more than just pressure waves - it is the subjective interpretation of the pressure waves that matter and that interpretation process is not constant but varies depending on a variety of parameters.

Expectation bias comes into this. Lets say I have purchased small wooden pyramids to put under my speaker cables. I bought them in a fancy shop, from a knowledgeable (?) assistant, and they were expensive. The HiFi press love them. Are you surprised that I think the sound is different? It is to me - and to be clear I am not imagining it - the sound IS different to me because my brain has processed it differently.

So when we get these heated debates about 'take it home and try it, you will tell the difference' I am quite sure that many (most?) actually hear a difference, even though the sound is completely unchanged. Why anyone on this forum thinks that they are immune from this effect is beyond me.

So here is the philosophical question - if I buy a product that makes me process the sound differently in my head and therefore I hear a change even though the sound itself is unchanged, has the product worked?

Frankly, andyjm, it sounds to me as if you are deluded, or at least deluding yourself.

This passage in particular seems relevant . . . (my emphases)

Expectation bias comes into this. Lets say I have purchased small wooden pyramids to put under my speaker cables. I bought them in a fancy shop, from a knowledgeable (?) assistant, and they were expensive. The HiFi press love them. Are you surprised that I think the sound is different? It is to me - and to be clear I am not imagining it - the sound IS different to me because my brain has processed it differently.

In my opinion you are imagining it.

You would do just as well to save your money, not buy the silly product, but simply imagine that you had done so. Maybe some wine, or other substance would aid this process.

Why anyone on this forum thinks that they are immune from this effect is beyond me.

Presumably, because they don't suffer from the same delusions.

So here is the philosophical question - if I buy a product that makes me process the sound differently in my head and therefore I hear a change even though the sound itself is unchanged, has the product worked?

No.

What has worked is the promotion of a false concept, in the minds of gullible people, for the purpose of financial advantage. Most people would call that close to being dishonest.

That's why the ASA told them to desist.

JC

 

[jcbrum]

In case anyone is concerned, my comments about andyjm's psychological state of mind are to be taken solely in the context of this discussion. I don't know him. If he or anyone else is concerned about their susceptibility to these effects they should consult a qualified medical practicioner. - JC

 

[jcbrum]

Note to mods : I make no derogatory assessment of andyjm here. The essence of the discussion is whether the dubious claims for the function of these products is merely an effect created by the promotional assertions, in the minds of susceptible people. - JC

 

[hammill]

I know this thread is about Black Ravioli but I'd like to share my experience with something similar. I was recently lent a set of Shoon Mook Mpingo discs by a dealer. Two of us in the shop had heard clear differences with and without the discs in place but I wasn't convinced (a set of six cost around £300) so the dealer offered a home trial. I had the discs for 3 days and 4 friends were invited to audition. All were skeptical at what appeared to be voodoo audio; yet all 4 heard clear differences when the discs were properly placed. However, here's the thing - although all agreed the sound differed, not all agreed that it was better. I too felt that different did not equate to better/improved so I returned the discs. But it was an eye-opener for me not to write off anything related to audio without listening first.

What did they do to the sound, and did you all agree in what way it was changed?

What were they made from?

They are made from some exotic type of wood that I believe resonate at certain frequencies that can cancel out others which might be problematic. They look like black carrom seeds and apparently can be placed anywhere on your hifi but the dealer recommended using them on top of speakers. I found they softened the highs produced by the ribbon tweeters on my ProAc K6s. Some of my friends liked the rounding-off of the treble when the discs were in place since it gave a slightly warmer presentation but I like to hear more detail at those frequencies so I wasn't convinced that warmer was better.

You can learn all about them here http://www.shunmook.com/text1.htm. Very funny, although I doubt it is intentional. Here is a fine example of what they have to say: "With a 5" diameter x 2.25" high body which holds three times the volume of ebony reservoir then the Ultra Diamond Resonator, this is truly the ultimate enhancement device for your electronic. The 3/8" diameter steel shank carries a half-carat natural diamond point. Each time this is tested under any electromechanical equipment the improvement leaps several letter grades for the entire Hi Fi system and brings fidelity to new heights. At present due to the difficulty of obtaining large pieces of ebony this is only produced in very limited quantities."

 

[jcbrum]

On re-reading through this thread, I notice that andyjm himself makes this observation . . . (my emphasis) . . .

It (the brain) does not do this in isolation, but incorporates input from the other senses, modified by whatever phsycological state the listener is in.

JC

 

[jcbrum]

Interestingly, when I researched 'delusion', I found this qualifying definition . . .

Furthermore, when a false belief involves a value judgment, it is only considered as a delusion if it is so extreme that it cannot be or ever can be proven true.

. . . Was this not the basis of their defence, by BR, at the inquiry held before the ASA.

JC

 

[chebby]

In case anyone is concerned, my comments about andyjm's psychological state of mind are to be taken solely in the context of this discussion. I don't know him. If he or anyone else is concerned about their susceptibility to these effects they should consult a qualified medical practicioner. - JC

No matter what my own thoughts are regarding the claims made for certain hi-fi accessories, it would be going way too far to suggest that other forum members need qualified medical assistance if they disagreed.

You have not only generalised on this point but picked out a specific forum member to call 'delusional' and advise qualifed medical assistance to.

 

[jcbrum]

If anyone is worried by these concepts, Chebby, I would not wish them to be discomforted, and the reassurance might be beneficial in specific cases. - JC

 

[Singslinger]

Just a short postscript if I may - I have a friend who uses room tuning crystals, Shanti electromagnetic stabilisers, Harmonix feet, Cardas wood blocks to support his cables (they are rather thick and heavy )and all manner of doodads with his hifi, many of which some people would classify as voodoo BS. He's what I would call the quintessential tweaker and is always on the lookout for new tweaks.

But is he delusional? Maybe. Frankly though, who cares? His wife certainly doesn't and neither does he. It's his money and his ears - even if there really isn't a sound quality improvement, as long as he believes it's money well spent, then who am I to tell him he's wasting his money (or not)?

 

[floyd droid]

What is this stuff made of?

I have seen references to technology derived from nuclear submarines

Thats near enough correct , heard this first hand when the things first hit the muggit , whoops sorry market.

Or is there some actual technology going on?

Ha ha,nope not on yer life.

 

[BenLaw]

Just a short postscript if I may - I have a friend who uses room tuning crystals, Shanti electromagnetic stabilisers, Harmonix feet, Cardas wood blocks to support his cables (they are rather thick and heavy )and all manner of doodads with his hifi, many of which some people would classify as voodoo BS. He's what I would call the quintessential tweaker and is always on the lookout for new tweaks.

But is he delusional? Maybe. Frankly though, who cares? His wife certainly doesn't and neither does he. It's his money and his ears - even if there really isn't a sound quality improvement, as long as he believes it's money well spent, then who am I to tell him he's wasting his money (or not)?

Although interestingly according to David's definition that guy is more into his music than someone who thinks all that stuff may be a bit silly, doesn't spend time researching, obtaining, comparing and discussing it, and listens to music through a straightforward system. Does everyone agree?

 

[ifor]

Do any of the "fundamentalists" here now anyone that's colour blind? If you do, try telling that person that he/she can't see the view from the window any differently from you, because however you measure the light it's exactly the same for both of you.

We do not yet, and probably never will, fully understand the brain and the interestions between our senses.

 

[Craig M.]

Just a short postscript if I may - I have a friend who uses room tuning crystals, Shanti electromagnetic stabilisers, Harmonix feet, Cardas wood blocks to support his cables (they are rather thick and heavy )and all manner of doodads with his hifi, many of which some people would classify as voodoo BS. He's what I would call the quintessential tweaker and is always on the lookout for new tweaks.

But is he delusional? Maybe. Frankly though, who cares? His wife certainly doesn't and neither does he. It's his money and his ears - even if there really isn't a sound quality improvement, as long as he believes it's money well spent, then who am I to tell him he's wasting his money (or not)?

Although interestingly according to David's definition that guy is more into his music than someone who thinks all that stuff may be a bit silly, doesn't spend time researching, obtaining, comparing and discussing it, and listens to music through a straightforward system. Does everyone agree?

He sounds like he's all about the music. :dance:

 

[andyjm]

Note to mods : I make no derogatory assessment of andyjm here. The essence of the discussion is whether the dubious claims for the function of these products is merely an effect created by the promotional assertions, in the minds of susceptible people. - JC

Note to mods: I am not in the least bit offended by JC.

JC,

I have told this story before, so apologies to anyone who has read this.

My first job when I graduated was in the research and designs group of a well known national broadcaster. I worked in a group specialising in recording equipment design - video and audio. The group in the lab next to mine were responsible for speaker design, although many of the team had moved on, there were some left from the design of the LS3/5A and LS5/9. Knowing I was keen on HiFi they invited me in to their evaluation room to audition some of the speakers.

They demonstrated a number of development versions of the LS3/5, explaing the problems in the sound in each and how they were able to overcome the problem in the next design. I followed their comments, and I could clearly hear each of the problems, and how the problem was corrected in the later version. Except they never changed the speaker, it was the same one for each of the demonstrations.

I remember the lesson to this day. The power of suggestion and the bias that comes from expectation dwarfes any perception ability you may have. I haven't designed audio equipment for 20 years, but I try to stay current. The rise of the cult of the speaker cable and mains conditioner offends my engineering bones, but I fully understand why people are convinced they improve the sound they perceive. Its not that they are gullible, its just that's the way people's brains are wired. The morality of those who sell these products is a different question, but perhaps they believe they work as well.

 

[jcbrum]

You are very gracious, Andy. Thank-you. - JC

 

[CnoEvil]

Just a short postscript if I may - I have a friend who uses room tuning crystals, Shanti electromagnetic stabilisers, Harmonix feet, Cardas wood blocks to support his cables (they are rather thick and heavy )and all manner of doodads with his hifi, many of which some people would classify as voodoo BS. He's what I would call the quintessential tweaker and is always on the lookout for new tweaks.

But is he delusional? Maybe. Frankly though, who cares? His wife certainly doesn't and neither does he. It's his money and his ears - even if there really isn't a sound quality improvement, as long as he believes it's money well spent, then who am I to tell him he's wasting his money (or not)?

Although interestingly according to David's definition that guy is more into his music than someone who thinks all that stuff may be a bit silly, doesn't spend time researching, obtaining, comparing and discussing it, and listens to music through a straightforward system. Does everyone agree?

A criticsm often levied at "tweakers" (by the objectivists), is that they are more interested in messing about with their system than listening to the music.....so I read David's post as confirming that it's possible to be a tweaker and a music lover; rather than insinuating (because he did not make the remark directly) that the other group were not into their music to the same degree.

Anyway, I'm sure he will confirm what he meant.

 

[hammill]

Do any of the "fundamentalists" here now anyone that's colour blind? If you do, try telling that person that he/she can't see the view from the window any differently from you, because however you measure the light it's exactly the same for both of you.

We do not yet, and probably never will, fully understand the brain and the interestions between our senses.

Personally speaking if anyone can provided evidence using properly conducted reproducible double blind tests that magic beads make a difference to the sound then I am happy to accept that some physical interaction we do not currently understand is taking place. Until then, if it looks like snake oil and tastes like snake oil then it is snake oil. If you want to buy it nobody is stopping you.