Bi-Wire, waste of time???

[Anton90125]

[quote user="Masterbluster"]Not so. If you have zero resistance cable any problems with the signal will be the same on the speaker connections whether you bi-wire or not.[/quote]

??? How on earth do you reason that???

When the principles of bi wiring work on separating (reducing in real terms) the intermodulation of the low frequencies (Crossover/Woofer) and high frequencies (Crossover/Tweeter).

Since this a physical separation (at least to the point where the connect at the amp), cable resistance is not relevent.

Also as the woofer is both a "motor" and a "generator". Any additional current (and signal distortion) generated by woofer overshoot ( by virtue that it has inertia ) will be mostly mopped up by the amplifier before reaching the tweeter. The amplifiers damping factor can better control the movement of the woofer

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Anton90125"][quote user="Masterbluster"]Not so. If you have zero resistance cable any problems with the signal will be the same on the speaker connections whether you bi-wire or not.[/quote]

??? How on earth do you reason that???

[/quote]

Zero resistance is a short circuit. There can be no potential difference existing between 2 points that are short circuited.

 

[Andrew Everard]

[quote user="gpi"]If my anti-foo cable views are not welcome, as they clearly are not, no one can fairly debate any subject, let alone cables, and this is not a balanced FORUM. I suppose I'll be banned now, for what reason should be made clear as I haven't insulted anyone.[/quote]

I get the impression Sir is not a happy guppy...

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="ssvirk"]Found it : Mostwanted-products

What am I looking for exactly ??[/quote]

6mm speaker cable.

 

[Andrew Everard]

[quote user="Masterbluster"]6mm speaker cable.[/quote]

Surely his speakers must be further away from his amp than that.

 

[Anton90125]

[quote user="Masterbluster"]Zero resistance is a short circuit. There can be no potential difference existing between 2 points that are short circuited.[/quote]

But in the context of biwiring ?? Remember cables arn't pure resistance

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Anton90125"][quote user="Masterbluster"]Zero resistance is a short circuit. There can be no potential difference existing between 2 points that are short circuited.[/quote]

But in the context of biwiring ?? Remember cables arn't pure resistance

[/quote]

In the context of anything you like zero resistance is a short circuit.

 

[Anton90125]

[quote user="Masterbluster"]
[quote user="Anton90125"][quote user="Masterbluster"]Zero resistance is a short circuit. There can be no potential difference existing between 2 points that are short circuited.[/quote]

But in the context of biwiring ?? Remember cables arn't pure resistance

[/quote]

In the context of anything you like zero resistance is a short circuit.
[/quote]

No its not!, If you have a capacitive and/or inductive element you will an impedance which will look like a resistance. This will vary with frequency. There will also be a phase shift which will also vary with frequency. If you couple it with a crossover with its resistors,inductors and capacitors,the coil in a driver you have a very complex picture which is anything but zero.

Remember a cable (zero resistance or otherwise) you have your signal wire and its return line in parallel with an insulator between. This sounds like a capacitor. There's a frequency dependent resistor there! If you coil the cable in any way, there an inductor there- another frequency resistor there.

But all this is by the by since there is no cable that is zero resistance/zero impedance anyway.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Anton90125"][quote user="Masterbluster"]

[quote user="Anton90125"][quote user="Masterbluster"]Zero resistance is a short circuit. There can be no potential difference existing between 2 points that are short circuited.[/quote]

But in the context of biwiring ?? Remember cables arn't pure resistance

[/quote]

In the context of anything you like zero resistance is a short circuit.
[/quote]

No its not!,

[/quote]

If we are talking about audio, and I thought we were, zero impedance and resistance of wires amounts to the same thing. There are cables that are good enough and close enough to zero impedance / resistance to make bi-wiring a waste of time and I have some.

That'll do for me.

 

[Anton90125]

[quote user="Masterbluster"]
If we are talking about audio, and I thought we were, zero impedance and resistance of wires amounts to the same thing. There are cables that are good enough and close enough to zero impedance / resistance to make bi-wiring a waste of time and I have some.

That'll do for me.
[/quote]

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion,buts thats all it is an opinion

My Isolda cable is known to have a high capacitance and requires an inductive network to stop some amplifiers going into oscillations. All cables have impedance. But talking about cable resistance/impedance as a way of dismissing bi wiring is just a smoke screen. It does nothing to deal with the intermodulation that occur between tweeter/woofer networks which is why biwiring works or helping the amp deal with currents generated by the woofer. Thus giving a tighter base.

But as long as you are happy with what you have, thats fine with me too.

 

[gpi]

[quote user="Anton90125"]
I have no problem with anyone having an opinion different to mine.

What I have a problem is when a set of stated facts are claimed to be pseudo science but then there is no attempt to explain why? To make any kind of claim like that, you should be in a position to explain your reasoning at a appropriate level.
If you dispute the science, then you must be prepared to explain in scientific terms why the "stated fact" is actually incorrect.

[quote user="gpi"]If my anti-foo cable views are not welcome, as they clearly are not, no one can fairly debate any subject, let alone cables, and this is not a balanced FORUM.[/quote]

A debate is more the one side "saying yes it is" and the other side saying "no it isn't". Both sides need to put together reasons for point of view, which means a lot more then stating "pseudo-science claptrap". In the examples you latter gave, you never explained why in scientific terms why you thought they were suspect. Without this input there is no means of any of us to continuing a debate.

I think its a bit unfair to call this FORUM unbalanced (for lack of fair debate) when YOU are not actually debating, just simply stating in blanket terms what are very general and unreasoned statements.
[/quote]

What science? This is my main bone of contention. The cable vendors blind us with technical marketing blurb and expect us to believe it. Sorry Anton, I do not agree with your view that I have to come up with scientific facts to disprove claims not based in scientific fact. In my view the cable vendors should produce results from their own ABX testing, but they choose not to and simply say try it and see, and/or money back guarantee. Why doesn't at least one of the major names in hi-fi cables produce results from listening tests instead of blinding us with pseudo-science? Maybe the whole thing is just too subjective and maybe I should stop worrying about how other people spend their money. ;o)

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="gpi"][quote user="bobbys"].[quote user="gpi"][quote user="Clare Newsome"]

[quote user="gpi"]. I am fed up with hearing the 'try before you buy' cop-out and 'let your ears decide', which do nothing to excuse or back up the marketing spiel.[/quote]

If you don't want to hear it, you may prefer another Forum, [/quote] I do not want to hear what? Actually yes you're right. In future I will only post on fairly managed public forums that support and encourage free speech, [/quote]
BYE BYE then. lets face it do u you test drive a car before you hand over your money? i rest my case.[/quote] That's a very silly analogy. I use a car everyday to get from A to B, I don't do the same with cables between hi-fi components. Maybe if I wanted to change a HT lead, but I wouldn't try it first I'd just buy it? Enjoy wasting your money on over-priced cables that make no difference to the sound of your gear. If my anti-foo cable views are not welcome, as they clearly are not, no one can fairly debate any subject, let alone cables, and this is not a balanced FORUM. I suppose I'll be banned now, for what reason should be made clear as I haven't insulted anyone. http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
[/quote]

I agree freedom of choice for all. I can't help think though that if you bought a HT lead for your car and it was the battery cable that was causing the problem you may ask the dealer if he would swap the cable for you. Many ask for the facts with the cable issue, what does the facts matter if each of use have an opinion based on our hearing and own perception of how we would like something to sound. I for one would encourage trying things out as we get a chance, i never liked single malt whisky till i tried it, i thought i may like to smoke a cigar, and a cigar soon put me off that line of thought. This is with no disrespect to any one just my feelings on the issue.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Anton90125"] You are perfectly entitled to your opinion,buts thats all it is an opinion[/quote]

Of course. Zero resistance can mean 10 ohms.

 

[Anton90125]

[quote user="gpi"]In my view the cable vendors should produce results from their own ABX testing, but they choose not to and simply say try it and see, and/or money back guarantee[/quote]

I whole heartedly agree with you here. I also include hifi equipment in general here.

[quote user="gpi"]Why doesn't at least one of the major names in hi-fi cables produce results from listening tests instead of blinding us with pseudo-science?[/quote]

The problem here is what is actually correct (ie go to a lab and do test and get the same answers) and what is technologically sounding rubbish. What is scientifically correct but irrelevant in an audio sense and what is actually very relevant. If you want to tackle something from a scientific stand point (which calling something pseudo-science does certainly qualifies as) requires an in depth criticism at an equally scientific level to actually mean anything

I like to know the physics behind things and am re reading all my physics and maths books (after 20 odd years since I studied. ) and specs are a real aspect of Hifi that we all look at. The dividing line between specs and marketing is a very fuzzy line which I am not qualified to judge.

At the end of the day if it sounds good and has passed various blind tests, then its probably worth getting.

The recent ASA ruling on Russ Andrews is probably the best thing to happen. It may force manufacturers to be honest with the data they publish/market.

 

[Anton90125]

[quote user="Masterbluster"]
[quote user="Anton90125"] You are perfectly entitled to your opinion,buts thats all it is an opinion[/quote]

Of course. Zero resistance can mean 10 ohms.

[/quote]

If you are a mathematician you can define it as such if it pleases you.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Anton90125"][quote user="Masterbluster"]

[quote user="Anton90125"] You are perfectly entitled to your opinion,buts thats all it is an opinion[/quote]

Of course. Zero resistance can mean 10 ohms.

[/quote]

If you are a mathematician you can define it as such if it pleases you.

[/quote]

It isn't me that is trying to redefine zero resistance.

 

[Andrew Everard]

And so it degenerates into squabbles. Smoke signals, anyone...?

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Andrew Everard"]
And so it degenerates into squabbles. Smoke signals, anyone...?
[/quote]
And here's a shock: I'm just staying out of it from now on.
At least for now...

 

[Anton90125]

[quote user="Masterbluster"]It isn't me that is trying to redefine zero resistance. [/quote]

Really? I thought you were ignoring impedence? dismissing it because of the frequency range (20-20K).

The inescapable fact is:

1. You can not get zero real resistance cables

2. Even at audio frequencies you have impedances.

[quote user="Masterbluster"]

The nearer your cables are to having no losses (zero resistance) the less point there is in bi-wiring, because it's directly connected together anyway. If you notice a difference you need better cables.
[/quote]

From your statement you are saying there is no point to biwiring: for this to be true (in the context of your statement and ignoring impedance realities) you redefining low resistance cables as having zero resistance.

"It isn't me that is trying to redefine zero resistance. " indeed!

 

[Anton90125]

[quote user="Andrew Everard"]
And so it degenerates into squabbles. Smoke signals, anyone...?
[/quote]

Smoke signals down non existent cables more like.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Anton90125"][quote user="Andrew Everard"]

And so it degenerates into squabbles. Smoke signals, anyone...?
[/quote]

Smoke signals down non existent cables more like.

[/quote]

Huff and puff from overpriced foo cable owner.

 

[Andrew Everard]

You keep talking about 'foo' cable. What on earth does this mean?

 

[drummerman]

[quote user="Andrew Everard"] You keep talking about 'foo' cable. What on earth does this mean?
[/quote]

Rice noodles?

 

[drummerman]

[quote user="drummerman"]
Rice noodles?

[/quote]

... which I highly recommend as conductor in place of conventional cables. Just make sure you moist them first and they really start to sing on systems over 2k. Try it.

 

[gpi]

I wonder what we'd argue about if all new components were wireless. The quality of the air between them? Vibrations in the air?

Re this debate, what about the long lengths of wound copper wire in the speakers and the standard, skinny wires inside components? Are they audible too?

guppy. ;-)