Benefit of a streamer?

[busb]

Generally I find in this debate, the views expressed are mostly based on speculation, rather than the actual comparison of a good Streamer vs "Mac 'n Dac".

If someone has actually done a back-to-back comparison of something like a Linn DS vs the alternative, it would be good to hear about it.

Some things are worth experimenting with despite science telling us that there is no point - hence me spending a fortune recently on speaker cable & not regretting it. I know my brain can play tricks & subconsciously tell my mind that something's better (expectation bias) where ABX testing would undoubtedly "prove" otherwise. If I then state my own doubts about the veracity of ABX testing relying on short term memory, I'd be open to the accusation that I'm merely attempting to adjust reality to suit my own belief system.

On the other hand, having been trained as an engineer, I do not discount years of experience of using logic & knowhow to either fix stuff or think through technical stuff. Sitting in both camps enriches rather than confuses. So just what IS the difference between music streamed from a laptop to that from a dedicated streamer? The engineer in me tells me probably nothing for the simple reason that both are essentially the same damn thing packaged differently but running Microsoft Windows either overtly or covertly! We are not comparing vinyl to CD, afterall. They both have the same technology but the streamer is dedicated to playing music so cannot send emails. A a laptop/PC is a universal maching that can be configured to do any number of tasks simultaneously: a Jack of all trades but master of none? I'd speculate that a laptop not optimised for music delivery may sound worse but one could build a PC to match the best streamers. I cannot connect my Sony Vaio to my M-DAC using async USB due to the former's noisy switch-mode PSU - I'd have to fit a galvanic isolator or run the Sony from its battery. Fortunately, using Airplay is more convenient & just works but it does point to some, if not all laptops' PSUs not being fit for music replay over a wired connection.

I really don't see what the problem is. People have the option to go the streamer route or adapt their existing PC/laptop or even buy a shiny new one for the task. We collectively seem to be arguing that red is a better colour than green or whisky tastes better than gin. So some people prefer as few boxes as possible where others prefer many, stating that if their CDP breaks, they simply replace (or have repaired) with another that may well be better, then pointing out that something like a TV with built-in DVD playback just ain't that sexy. If a car's engine blows, we get a new engine. If a single solution box looses one function, we may or may not be able to get it fixed. The active speaker route with airplay, various wired digital input with remote volume control & function switching is an extremely elegant solution for those starting from scratch or for those willing to dispose of their existing kit. Many people prefer separate boxes for the sheer flexibility it gives them. Perhaps we should start respecting other's choices, afterall, we all consider the hardware secondary to out shared love of music, don't we?

 

[andyjm]

The active speaker route with airplay, various wired digital input with remote volume control & function switching is an extremely elegant solution for those starting from scratch or for those willing to dispose of their existing kit. Many people prefer separate boxes for the sheer flexibility it gives them. Perhaps we should start respecting other's choices, afterall, we all consider the hardware secondary to out shared love of music, don't we?

No suggestion from my part that anyone should not follow their own choices, just an observation that a stand alone streamer is going the way of the Dodo.

Arguably the 'proper' Hifi streamer appeared in 2000 with the launch of SlimDevices. The pinnacle of their offering, the Transporter, was launched in 2006 (I have one, and it is still my main listening source). SlimDevices was sold to Logitech the same year. Logitech closed the Squeezebox division at the end of 2012. In my mind, this pretty much captures the lifecylcle of the stand alone streamer.

To be fair, it is not as if the Hifi separates business itself is in rude health, I dont think Naim sold themselves to Focal because business was booming.

Apart from a few enthusiasts, there is little demand for a stack of (empty) black boxes with a rats nest of cables behind. If I was starting in the Hifi business today, it would be active, DSP, wireless speakers.

Lets check back in a couple of years and see how things have developed.

 

[CnoEvil]

I agree with a lot of what Busb and Andyjm have said.

Personally, I just go with what I best like the sound of, and is flexible enough to be upgraded if the whim takes me.

Since we are living in the present, a streamer based product makes the most sense (imo); but as to what the future may bring........... :?

 

[Overdose]

I agree with a lot of what Busb and Andyjm have said.

Personally, I just go with what I best like the sound of, and is flexible enough to be upgraded if the whim takes me.

Since we are living in the present, a streamer based product makes the most sense (imo); but as to what the future may bring........... :?

The standalone streamer is still available, but is now outdated, it is the past. In the present, TVs offer more functionality than standalone streamers and DVD/Blu-Ray players the same. They are limited in their function and are likely to go the way of the mini disc player. The only devices that have any long term future are multi function ones, just like mobile phones in fact. Try buying a mobile phone that has no other function than to make calls.

It is likely that some very niche products will continue to be made for and sold to enthusiasts, but the reality is trending away from separate boxes as the younger generation seek more than just sound quality and want better tech and integrated functionality. Miniturisation has enabled this to come from smaller and smaller devices. The only components that need to have any 'real estate' presence in the home are the screen needed to watch media and the speakers neeeded to listen to it, everything else can quite comfortably be made to fit inside these enclosures.

Edit: and the above is not the future, it is here now a widely available.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

not going too much off topic, could someone advise if I can get somewhere a passively cooled laptop? or is it only the privilige of tablets? my 7 year old Dell laptop recently died on me. I guess it was the graphics card which couldn't take it any longer. anyway, the point is this laptop after so many years of heavy gaming abuse began to humm worse than a mad humpster in its play-wheel. I still use a CDP ATM but I'm considering going back to computer audio. however, I don't want a humming transport when listeming to music....

streamers on the other hand are usually passively cooled, aren't they?

 

[Overdose]

Dell Mini 10 / 10V,
Nokia Booklet 3G,
ASUS PC T91,
Sony Vaio P,
Panasonic Toughbook CF-F8 / CF-30 and
Nec VersaPro VS-7

There are a few to have a look at.

Its worth noting that no computer is going to break into a sweat playing back music and will to all intents and purposes be silent. Movies are more demanding, but most AV solutions are not passively cooled, but with fans, again noise levels may be considered silent as they are most unlikely to be heard above the movie.

There are many truly silent computers available for multi media playback, laptops fewer, but as above, they do exist.

 

[nopiano]

streamers on the other hand are usually passively cooled, aren't they?

...and unsurprisingly this is a major benefit that streamer manufacturers highlight.

An example here, highlighted in another thread by the anticipated launch of his product, which some would suggest is obselete before it even hits the shops (though I disagree with that).

http://www.leema-acoustics.theowenagency.co.uk/our-products/accessories/elements-streamer/

 

[CnoEvil]

The standalone streamer is still available, but is now outdated, it is the past. In the present, TVs offer more functionality than standalone streamers and DVD/Blu-Ray players the same. They are limited in their function and are likely to go the way of the mini disc player. The only devices that have any long term future are multi function ones, just like mobile phones in fact. Try buying a mobile phone that has no other function than to make calls.

It is likely that some very niche products will continue to be made for and sold to enthusiasts, but the reality is trending away from separate boxes as the younger generation seek more than just sound quality and want better tech and integrated functionality. Miniturisation has enabled this to come from smaller and smaller devices. The only components that need to have any 'real estate' presence in the home are the screen needed to watch media and the speakers neeeded to listen to it, everything else can quite comfortably be made to fit inside these enclosures.

Edit: and the above is not the future, it is here now a widely available.

I agree, which is why I used the phrase "streamer based", rather than " a streamer".

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Dell Mini 10 / 10V,
Nokia Booklet 3G,
ASUS PC T91,
Sony Vaio P,
Panasonic Toughbook CF-F8 / CF-30 and
Nec VersaPro VS-7

Thanks for the tip but I'll be frank with you. All those suggestions are simply fugly (not to mention some of them are already discontinued). Wouldn't put any of them on a display in my living-room. Tablets look much neater but you need to find some usefull stand somewhere.

I see you might be keeping your finger on the computer tech (I don't anymore. I got bored with computers) so you might be able to answer me another question. I know of a very nice looking passively cooled HTPCs - Tranquill PC is the brand - very presentable and dare I say audiophile like looking, but not costing €5,000.00 or thereabouts. The question is; do you know a way to control a computer fully remotely via another device, like a smartphone (could be Windows based)? reason is I don't have a TV and don't intend to have one. TV shows are a waste of time IMO and I don't like to look at a black hole in the middle of my living room if the TV is not in use. I know myself as much to know that if I had I TV it would be turned on only if it was to make some background noise. I don't want to come back to it anymore. So no more TVs for me unless they invent something that can be rolled up and tucked away in a corner when not in use. I guess I still have to wait a few years for it come. But this leaves a problem of not having a graphical interface with a PC if I wanted to incorporate it into my hi-fi. So, can you efficiently comunicate and control a PC via another device? that's what streamers have naturally on offer. do PCs?

 

[cheeseboy]

yes, you can control a pc from lots of places, Windows calls it remote desktop. There's also VLC or teamviewer to name but a few. Also depending on what you are running on the pc, there may be a dedicated app for that bit of software as well. Or, you can use your tablet as a mouse/keyboard for the pc. So there's more options to controlling a pc than a streamer.

Tranquil pc's are nice, but overpriced for what is off the shelf kit put together by them. there's nothing audiophile (as much as I hate the term) about them apart from them using the word.

As for a TV you can roll up when not in use, what about a projector and an electric screen

 

[Overdose]

Thanks for the tip but I'll be frank with you. All those suggestions are simply fugly (not to mention some of them are already discontinued). Wouldn't put any of them on a display in my living-room. Tablets look much neater but you need to find some usefull stand somewhere.

I see you might be keeping your finger on the computer tech (I don't anymore. I got bored with computers) so you might be able to answer me another question. I know of a very nice looking passively cooled HTPCs - Tranquill PC is the brand - very presentable and dare I say audiophile like looking, but not costing €5,000.00 or thereabouts. The question is; do you know a way to control a computer fully remotely via another device, like a smartphone (could be Windows based)? reason is I don't have a TV and don't intend to have one. TV shows are a waste of time IMO and I don't like to look at a black hole in the middle of my living room if the TV is not in use. I know myself as much to know that if I had I TV it would be turned on only if it was to make some background noise. I don't want to come back to it anymore. So no more TVs for me unless they invent something that can be rolled up and tucked away in a corner when not in use. I guess I still have to wait a few years for it come. But this leaves a problem of not having a graphical interface with a PC if I wanted to incorporate it into my hi-fi. So, can you efficiently comunicate and control a PC via another device? that's what streamers have naturally on offer. do PCs?

Aesthetics are a subjective determining factor for any item, be it hi-fi or any other. I have not factored in looks for the reason that a computer can be hidden away, if need be.No TV? How about a projector screen or projecting onto a wall?

Anyway, back to the computer solution.

There are many options, some more cost effective than others and a lot depends on what you want to acheive and what functions you want.

You seem like you might like a bit of DIY, so one cheap and pared down option might be a Raspberry Pi using something like XBMC as a front end. You could create your own enclosure as required. I use a Mac mini in headless configuration and use my Laptop to control it, this might be overkill for you though.

The bottom line though, is that streaming generally has such a large selection of music from a variety of sources, that a screen of some sort is imperative for an ease of use point of view. Usually, manufacturers rely on mobile devices with apps for control.

What do you currently have in terms of tech by the way?

Edit: Perhaps this is best dealt with in a dedicated thread?

 

[manicm]

Overdose, I'm not keen on Airplay and still believe it to be a bit of a compromise. I may as well stick an aptX phone to Arcam's rBlink (TrustedReviews heaped praise on it recently).

Also you may believe the dedicated streaming device is outdated - but go telling that to Sonos owners or manufacturers. They won't be pure standalone devices as Chebby stated - indeed the one Cyrus option I'm looking at has a one-box streamer, DAC and pre-amp, but they won't go away. And some of us don't want the telly to dominate the room when listening to music only, I really don't care how smart the telly is. Broadband is still too expensive and unreliable where I am anyway.

 

[Overdose]

Overdose, I'm not keen on Airplay and still believe it to be a bit of a compromise. I may as well stick an aptX phone to Arcam's rBlink (TrustedReviews heaped praise on it recently).

Also you may believe the dedicated streaming device is outdated - but go telling that to Sonos owners or manufacturers. They won't be pure standalone devices as Chebby stated - indeed the one Cyrus option I'm looking at has a one-box streamer, DAC and pre-amp, but they won't go away. And some of us don't want the telly to dominate the room when listening to music only, I really don't care how smart the telly is. Broadband is still too expensive and unreliable where I am anyway.

I'm not telling you or anyone for that matter what you should buy, indeed, your choice is just that, but the fact that yourself and some others want to go down this route does not alter the fact that streamers are no more than simplified computers dedicated to audio only and offer nothing else. It's just the way it is.There are better streaming solution alternatives to dedicated streamers.

They will probably be around for a while yet though, but will become to be seen more and more like legacy equipment and appeal to an increasingly smaller market than they already do. A bit like fax machines I guess, yes they're available, but better alternatives exist.

For yourself manicm, streaming seems only a viable solution for you if the network is local anyway, no internet sourced media is going to be accessible to you without broadband, expensive or not.

Sonos is one of the few streaming dedicated solutions worth buying into, but then only perhaps if you have no other tech devices and want multi-room capability. Take away the multi room ability and you can do everything the Sonos can with a cheap netbook.

Horses for courses, buy what suits, but back to the OP, dedicated streamers offer nothing over a computer based setup.

 

[MajorFubar]

dedicated streamers offer nothing over a computer based setup.

...except maybe ease of use, plus the fact that right out the box it's a device already optimized for its one task, and generally it will be more aesthetically at home with existing HiFi kit than a PC. But in terms of potential SQ, I can't disagree

 

[Overdose]

dedicated streamers offer nothing over a computer based setup.

...except maybe ease of use, plus the fact that right out the box it's a device already optimized for its one task, and generally it will be more aesthetically at home with existing HiFi kit than a PC. But in terms of potential SQ, I can't disagree

I turn on my computer and activate the remote, which also opens iTunes, I then browse my library, select music and play. I'm not sure what is more difficult about that than using a dedicated streamer. The looks are a non issue with the Mac mini, it's a non descript small silver box and can be completely hidden from view if need be, no aesthics issue.

Straight out of the box is how I use the Mac and iTunes BTW. No faff.

 

[kmlav]

I recon this all depends on what you want out of your set up.

I have streamers in 2 rooms that are fed by a NAS which I can remote access from the office etc. So for me all my tunes are in one place and I can access them from everywhere. If I wanted to put more tunes in the bedroom I could just add a streamer up there and so on.

If I only wanted Music in one place them maybe yes a DAC "n" MAC is a good solution but still in this case external storage is so cheap and good streamers are not that expensive so why not? What if I want to browse the internet on my Laptop and listen to music at the same time you cant unless you have a cable from the Laptop to the Hi Fi , you have a load of Laptops knocking about or you go wireless and personally I dont think Airplay type solutions are that great for the enthusiast much in the same way as I dont think a Tesco £2.00 chicken is that nice but I can appreciate that the vast majority of the population would find it acceptable.

 

[Overdose]

I recon this all depends on what you want out of your set up.

I have streamers in 2 rooms that are fed by a NAS which I can remote access from the office etc. So for me all my tunes are in one place and I can access them from everywhere. If I wanted to put more tunes in the bedroom I could just add a streamer up there and so on.

If I only wanted Music in one place them maybe yes a DAC "n" MAC is a good solution but still in this case external storage is so cheap and good streamers are not that expensive so why not? What if I want to browse the internet on my Laptop and listen to music at the same time you cant unless you have a cable from the Laptop to the Hi Fi , you have a load of Laptops knocking about or you go wireless and personally I dont think Airplay type solutions are that great for the enthusiast much in the same way as I dont think a Tesco £2.00 chicken is that nice but I can appreciate that the vast majority of the population would find it acceptable.

What do you find wrong with Airplay?

 

[BigH]

I'm really not sure of the benefit having read a load of opinions on the Cambridge Stream Magic 6, mostly complaints about it not working and this is product of the year and costs £700, I really can't see the point. Why not just plug a PC/Laptop into a dac and away you go.

 

[MajorFubar]

I turn on my computer and activate the remote, which also opens iTunes, I then browse my library, select music and play. I'm not sure what is more difficult about that than using a dedicated streamer. The looks are a non issue with the Mac mini, it's a non descript small silver box and can be completely hidden from view if need be, no aesthics issue.

Straight out of the box is how I use the Mac and iTunes BTW. No faff.

I agree with you entirely as I use the same set-up (headless mostly as well, expect when it's streaming iPlayer etc), but I do appreciate that some people are going to prefer something which is more like a traditional piece of hifi, both in appearance and operation.

 

[MajorFubar]

What if I want to browse the internet on my Laptop and listen to music at the same time you cant unless you have a cable from the Laptop to the Hi Fi

You can't browse the internet on your streamer either, at least the option to do so is there with a computer, even one which has been purchased solely as a media server, should you desire. Hopefully your bullet lodged between your toes and didn't hurt too much. (Just messin')

Another factor is cost. I can buy a £1,000 DAC, a cheap Windows computer with a 1TB drive and have change from £1,500, even if I factor-in the cost of some fancy audiophile music player. Will a streamer of the same price give me the same sound quality? Genuine question not a p*sstake...

 

[Overdose]

I turn on my computer and activate the remote, which also opens iTunes, I then browse my library, select music and play. I'm not sure what is more difficult about that than using a dedicated streamer. The looks are a non issue with the Mac mini, it's a non descript small silver box and can be completely hidden from view if need be, no aesthics issue.

Straight out of the box is how I use the Mac and iTunes BTW. No faff.

I agree with you entirely as I use the same set-up (headless mostly as well, expect when it's streaming iPlayer etc), but I do appreciate that some people are going to prefer something which is more like a traditional piece of hifi, both in appearance and operation.

Agreed, but what does the streamer offer over a computer? Whichever streaming option you choose, the most efficient way to control it is going to be via a computer of some description. The tiny screens offered in situ on dedicated streamers are far from ideal in terms of user interface, particularly if the owner has a large library or wants to surf internet radio and other online streaming sources. So if a mobile device is used via an app for remote, already a computer is being used for this function and there is no longer anything traditional in operation. Streaming as a source in general is not traditional and to try and make the 'format' traditional just limits its potential for the user. It's bringing 21st century tech back into the 20th, in which case it's probably better for those users to stick with more traditional sources.

 

[MajorFubar]

I think another reason some might prefer a streamer is the perception that they're buying a product which has been optimised for one purpose right out the box. There is still a fear among many when you mention 'computer': the room's going to be a plethora of wires, keyboards, monitors, mice, need to buy virus checkers, register software, download updates, oh my goodness a big red X has appeared on screen, what do I do crikey I only wanted to play Lina Zaveroni's Greatest Hits! :O

And if not a fear, a belief that computers are somehow a jack of all trades but master of none unless you have a Masters in computer science. Bits, bytes, bit-perfect rips, hifi audio players, FLACs and ALACs. Blimey where's the big button on the front which says "Rip the CD I've just put in, tag it and store it?"

The (streamer) manufacturers of course love all this and emphasise how streamers are so easy to use, one touch rip, one touch play, does everything for you, all in a box, no nasty Windows/OSX updates, nothing to bite you and no viruses. Then to cinch the deal some of them have spin-doctors who are highly-trained agricultural-grade sewage-spreaders, spewing such odorous claims that rips made by their streamers sound superior to those made by computers, even though it would be probably possible to prove at bit-level that the rips are immaterially different, and maybe even completely identical.

 

[BenLaw]

:clap: Excellent last two posts chaps, that just about sums up the two sides. The major's last para is spot on and shows the solution to the two sides coming together (see through the sewage).

 

[kmlav]

I still think the benefit of a streamer is in how you consume the data.

So the set up for digital music reproduction is Data Storage > Data Presentation > Data Conversion to Analogue > Analogue presentation to listener. In many cases this can be done all in one device or each element can be spit out in a number of different configurations.

For those users who store and present their data on a personal computing device I would certainly recommend backing up somewhere, either locally on a external hard drive or on a cloud based solution.

For those users that want to have one central data storage device, which I would also recommend keeping a back up, and any number of data presentation, data conversion and analogue presentation devices it may well be that the NAS > any number of streamers > DAC ( internal or external) > Amplification is the answer. For a user like me for example that has a large amount of Data (Audio and Visual) and would like to view that data in a number of locations on all my devices - Apple TV (hacked), Streamers, Tablet Devices, and Personal Computing Devices in locations both local and remote this kind of set up works.

So essentially you split the front and the back end of your system into one central (backed up) data storage area and a number of access devices feeding from that.

 

[manicm]

I still maintain, if at some point you build a hi-res library a standalone streamer is the way to go, otherwise you'll be doing a lot of faffing on a PC. I too don't disagree that in SQ terms there may be no difference, but personally I'd be more comfy without a PC.