Bad cd records; is back to vinyl the solution?

[davedotco]

Compression of the dynamic range does not determine the loudness of a particular CD.

The loudness of the CD is determined by a process called 'Normalisation' where the level of the recording is 'optimised' so that the peaks are at maximum permitted level, 0dB.

The loudness is enhanced by compressing the dynamic range of the recording which raises average levels in respect of peak levels, which remain at 0dB.

The real damage is done by pushing the peak levels beyond 0dB, this is tamed by the use of limiters, it is this that produces those horrible clipped waveforms that are all so common.

The Dynamic Range Database does not tell you the dynamic range of the recording. It gives the recording a dynamic range value on an arbitary scale from 1 to 20. Thus a recording with an average dynamic range value of 10 does not have a dynamic range of 10dB.

 

[davedotco]

Agree, but on CD there is too much compression. On vinyl this isn't possible. That's why the same record always sounds better on vinyl.

Agreed, I have an identical cd and vinyl album, the cd sounds atrociuos on my domestic hifi, (only sounds good in the car), but I can easily listen to the vinyl version in its entirety on my domestic set-up.

You are both incorrect. Dynamic compression is a result of the mastering process and not directly related to the format used.

I think people generally misunderstand what dynamic compression is and how it relates to quality. Pop recordings in particular are an entirely artificial construct and created to sound a particular way. DR compression is simply a tool to aid in producing a good end product. Like any tool, it can be misused, but the existence or use of compression, is not in itself a bad thing.

There are many more factors that affect sound quality of a recording, such as how well the individual tracks are captured and an absence of 'noise' on the recording or final mix for example and there will be plenty of examples of poor quality recordings irrespective of dynamic range.

Neither of us said that it wasn't part of the mastering process but is it not true that CD's can be compressed more than vinyl due to the format?

No it is not true.

 

[Overdose]

The Dynamic Range Database does not tell you the dynamic range of the recording. It gives the recording a dynamic range value on an arbitary scale from 1 to 20. Thus a recording with an average dynamic range value of 10 does not have a dynamic range of 10dB.

Interesting. Where does it say that? I couldn't see it on the site and presumed (wrongly apparently) exactly that.

Edit: Surely there must be some correlation between the scale used and actual DR?

 

[davedotco]

The Dynamic Range Database does not tell you the dynamic range of the recording. It gives the recording a dynamic range value on an arbitary scale from 1 to 20. Thus a recording with an average dynamic range value of 10 does not have a dynamic range of 10dB.

Interesting. Where does it say that? I couldn't see it on the site and presumed (wrongly apparently) exactly that.

Edit: Surely there must be some correlation between the scale used and actual DR?

I read this somewhere, possibly information about the Foobar add on that performs the measurement. I believe the measuring device actually measures the difference from average levels to peak levels, then uses that to produce the DR value.

Obviously there is a correlation, but I do not think it is either linear or straightforward. Best to use the DR database as a comparative measurement rather than an absolute one.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

Agree, but on CD there is too much compression. On vinyl this isn't possible. That's why the same record always sounds better on vinyl.

Agreed, I have an identical cd and vinyl album, the cd sounds atrociuos on my domestic hifi, (only sounds good in the car), but I can easily listen to the vinyl version in its entirety on my domestic set-up.

You are both incorrect. Dynamic compression is a result of the mastering process and not directly related to the format used.

I think people generally misunderstand what dynamic compression is and how it relates to quality. Pop recordings in particular are an entirely artificial construct and created to sound a particular way. DR compression is simply a tool to aid in producing a good end product. Like any tool, it can be misused, but the existence or use of compression, is not in itself a bad thing.

There are many more factors that affect sound quality of a recording, such as how well the individual tracks are captured and an absence of 'noise' on the recording or final mix for example and there will be plenty of examples of poor quality recordings irrespective of dynamic range.

Neither of us said that it wasn't part of the mastering process but is it not true that CD's can be compressed more than vinyl due to the format?

No it is not true.

Understood, I stand corrected, DDC and OD. Then all I can say is that I definitely prefer some recordings on vinyl... This is subjectively true

. But I still wouldn't be without CD's because of their versatility.

 

[Vladimir]

Amp is Exposure 3010S2. Cd player Marantz CD 6005. Music mosly rock and metal.

When playing CDs, what is the setting of the volume control at your normal listening levels?

Exposure 3010S2 is 250mV input sensitive and the Marantz CD6500 outputs 2.2Vrms and has no volume control. That setup is loud, plus his choice of music is mastered loud and compressed, some of it even badly sound recorded, mixed and produced. He really might be better off with vinyl. Distortion, wow, flutter, pops, clicks, microphony, narrow dynamic range, all are non issue with rock and metal IMO.

This thread is very interesting to me, especially as for years I had dealt with CD>amp overload with a -14dB attenuating cable. On average I have listened to my vinyl more and always assumed that 'vinyl was better' it is now seems that vinyl sounded better because on average the signal was nowhere near overloading the input thus at 12 oclock on the nait 3 the sound was still pleasant to listen to.....the naits power at that point limited what happened after that.

The sound of a hot CD probably clipping the input was miserable, everything would be similarly loud, and by 10 o'clock the amps power would be clipping too. Sonic hell. The attenuator helped significantly although I always felt that it smoothed the sound almost too much, I don't know if the attenuator affected the music in some specific way but I always disliked the fact that I needed that cable to play CD's through a relatively expensive 'hifi' (or maybe that should be relatively inexpensive[/i] hifi unit!)unit and perhaps I was imagining the excessive 'smoothness' which I convinced myself was also robbing detail from the sound.....

Source: Listening to and recording the output of audio amplifiers

 

[andyjm]

The Dynamic Range Database does not tell you the dynamic range of the recording. It gives the recording a dynamic range value on an arbitary scale from 1 to 20. Thus a recording with an average dynamic range value of 10 does not have a dynamic range of 10dB.

Interesting. Where does it say that? I couldn't see it on the site and presumed (wrongly apparently) exactly that.

Edit: Surely there must be some correlation between the scale used and actual DR?

I read this somewhere, possibly information about the Foobar add on that performs the measurement. I believe the measuring device actually measures the difference from average levels to peak levels, then uses that to produce the DR value.

Obviously there is a correlation, but I do not think it is either linear or straightforward. Best to use the DR database as a comparative measurement rather than an absolute one.

This is correct. Taking a strict engineering definition of dynamic range - the ratio of loudest recorded sound to the quietest wouldn't capture the reality of the listening experience. A track that has been compressed to hell, with most of the sound hovering around 0dB FS, but with a very quiet lead-in would arguably have a very wide 'engineering' dynamic range.

The Foobar measure tries to capture the listening experience by comparing average level throughout the track with peak. It seems as good a way to do it as any, but it certainly isn't dynamic range as understood by an engineer.

 

[davedotco]

Amp is Exposure 3010S2. Cd player Marantz CD 6005. Music mosly rock and metal.

When playing CDs, what is the setting of the volume control at your normal listening levels?

Exposure 3010S2 is 250mV input sensitive and the Marantz CD6500 outputs 2.2Vrms and has no volume control. That setup is loud, plus his choice of music is mastered loud and compressed, some of it even badly sound recorded, mixed and produced. He really might be better off with vinyl. Distortion, wow, flutter, pops, clicks, microphony, narrow dynamic range, all are non issue with rock and metal IMO.

This thread is very interesting to me, especially as for years I had dealt with CD>amp overload with a -14dB attenuating cable. On average I have listened to my vinyl more and always assumed that 'vinyl was better' it is now seems that vinyl sounded better because on average the signal was nowhere near overloading the input thus at 12 oclock on the nait 3 the sound was still pleasant to listen to.....the naits power at that point limited what happened after that.The sound of a hot CD probably clipping the input was miserable, everything would be similarly loud, and by 10 o'clock the amps power would be clipping too. Sonic hell. The attenuator helped significantly although I always felt that it smoothed the sound almost too much, I don't know if the attenuator affected the music in some specific way but I always disliked the fact that I needed that cable to play CD's through a relatively expensive 'hifi' (or maybe that should be relatively inexpensive hifi unit!)unit and perhaps I was imagining the excessive 'smoothness' which I convinced myself was also robbing detail from the sound.....

Source: Listening to and recording the output of audio amplifiers

Kind of what I was hinting at. The CDs may be poor, but an overdriven amplifier may well make it worse.

A lot of vinyl (by no means all) is just as bad as the CD in terms of dynamic range but the limitations of the format means that it can only be cut to a certain level and no more. Similarly the gain of phono stages is kept quite low, due to noise, so a signal from a vinyl may not be so loud and not overdrive the amplifier in the same way that a CD might.

Lack of energy at high levels may help take the edge off the nastyness and the 'reverb' effect seems to restore some of the warmth lost in poor mastering.

 

[peterpan]

What can i do the best to solve the problem?

1. Go to vinyl. But i don't have a turntable and lp's. This will be very expensive. And isn't vinyl a hype? I mean the future is streaming?

2. Change the amp? Will be a Arcam better?

 

[nopiano]

A lot of vinyl (by no means all) is just as bad as the CD in terms of dynamic range but the limitations of the format means that it can only be cut to a certain level and no more. Similarly the gain of phono stages is kept quite low, due to noise, so a signal from a vinyl may not be so loud and not overdrive the amplifier in the same way that a CD might.

Lack of energy at high levels may help take the edge off the nastyness and the 'reverb' effect seems to restore some of the warmth lost in poor mastering.

I agree, Dave, and this is pretty much what I was saying in post # 7.

 

[drummerman]

What can i do the best to solve the problem?

1. Go to vinyl. But i don't have a turntable and lp's. This will be very expensive. And isn't vinyl a hype? I mean the future is streaming?

2. Change the amp? Will be a Arcam better?

Streaming is not the future, it is the present.

Starting collecting vinyl will be relatively expensive compared to non-physical media especially if you take into consideration maintenance. It is something only you can decide on whether you are willing to invest the time and money but from a personal view, I started 3 years ago and never looked back.

As to the amplifier ... a good one and that also goes for the phono stage, turntable and speakers will increase your enjoyment of the media but you don't need to go overboard to hear how amazing a good record can sound.

Good luck

regards

 

[Vladimir]

What can i do the best to solve the problem?

1. Go to vinyl. But i don't have a turntable and lp's. This will be very expensive. And isn't vinyl a hype? I mean the future is streaming?

2. Change the amp? Will be a Arcam better?

Regardless what you do with Option 1, you will need to solve CD playback as well. I remember you wrote a thread asking for CDP recommendations and obviosly bought the Marantz hoping it will sound warm because people associate Marantz with warmth. Therefore, I will comment only on Option 2, how to improve your CDP + Amplifier setup to sound less harsh and loud.

You don't need to change the amp, just turn the volume down coming from the CD player to prevent clipping in the preamp and increase usable volume knob travel (not to get loud at least till 12 o'clock position). Considering the CD6005 doesn't have volume control, you can buy these passive attenuators that will turn the CDP volume down by a fixed value (selectable -10db, -15db, -20db). These different attenuators are of higher quality but it's totally up to you if and how much you are willing to spend. What is expected to improve with these attenuators is discussed at length in this thread. However, let's not fool ourselves, rubbish recordings will remain what they are.

 

[Jota180]

The probable reason CD's are sounding bad on your system is the amps overly sensitive input. If you like to listen loud you'll turn it up a bit and it'll be clipping making music fatiguing. If you turn it down, the channel balance will be crap as it's worse lower on the volume pot than it is higher up.

You could try attaching attenuators (start from around 24 quid) to the CD cables before they enter the amp or buy an amp that's properly suited to CD's 2.1V output standard. A standard that's been written in stone for over 30 years.

Some amplifier designers need a right good kick in the pants.

 

[Jim-W]

Only you can decide what medium you choose for your music reproduction, peterpan. When you can pick up cds in supermarkets for £3 and the equivalent vinyl record will cost you £400+ for a mint original( current price for Nick Drake's 'Bryter Layter' in Sainsbury's) then it might seem like a no-brainer: the cd will sound fine, clear and accurate, if rather loud, whereas the record will give you the perfect imperfection of the vinyl format ie the warmth produced by the inability of the tonearm to stay perfectly still in the groove which creates its own harmonic resonances and colours the sound. However, speaker placement, your amp, your cd player and your room will also 'colour' what you hear even on cd or via streaming.

The future may well be streaming, in fact I'm sure it's already here for many people. I guess for those of us who grew up with lp records and even, to a certain and limited extent, embraced the cd format, the idea of not having a physical product is a bit strange. In tems of storage though, lp records eventually become a nightmare of gargantuan proportions.

There's a wealth of good advice in this thread and elsewhere in numerous debates throughout the forum to help you make up your mind. I'll just add a couple of things re vinyl:

It doesn't have to be expensive: You can pick records up from 50p to a few quid at car-boot sales, markets and charity shops etc.

Your streaming files or whatever format you use will have no value in monetary terms; lp records will often increase in value and could make you or your children very very rich.

Oh and you can get a half-decent turntable very cheaply...look at WHF best buys.

 

[davedotco]

It is a difficult proposition, if you do not already have vinyl then it is a pretty expensive one, not just the hardware but software, equipment support and possibly room treatment.

I would have to be pretty sure I wanted to go down that particular route given the cost, personally I find budget and mid-fi players throw up as many SQ problems as they solve, so I made my choice a while back.

Personally I do not really have a measure of the extent of the problem in your specific case, I do not play much modern pop and rock (let alone metal), particularly the more comercial stuff so the issue is rather academic for me.

 

[peterpan]

Very difficult. Vinyl will be expensive. I have at the moment no LP's. And when i look at Nightwish, Hammerfall, sirenia, Within Temptation etc. on vinyl; it's very expensive.

I had plans next year to go on streaming, but now i'm very confused what to do to solve my problem. And yes; i like a darker, warmer sound. Will another amp solve the problem like the Lyngdorf tdai 2170?

 

[Captain Sensible]

I use both vinyl ( main ) and a digital streamer. Strange as this may sound I have not noticed a loudness problem with downloads for the streamer. Of course this might come down to a better dac in the streamer I'm not sure. Really glad I gave up CD's some three years ago best move I ever made in hifi terms. Personally vinyl for me has the best sound especially if you take care of the LP's by cleaning them you don't get smack crackle pop.

So if you want to stick with digital go along and audition a streamer you won’t be disappointed.

 

[Overdose]

Agree, but on CD there is too much compression. On vinyl this isn't possible. That's why the same record always sounds better on vinyl.

Agreed, I have an identical cd and vinyl album, the cd sounds atrociuos on my domestic hifi, (only sounds good in the car), but I can easily listen to the vinyl version in its entirety on my domestic set-up.

You are both incorrect. Dynamic compression is a result of the mastering process and not directly related to the format used.

I think people generally misunderstand what dynamic compression is and how it relates to quality. Pop recordings in particular are an entirely artificial construct and created to sound a particular way. DR compression is simply a tool to aid in producing a good end product. Like any tool, it can be misused, but the existence or use of compression, is not in itself a bad thing.

There are many more factors that affect sound quality of a recording, such as how well the individual tracks are captured and an absence of 'noise' on the recording or final mix for example and there will be plenty of examples of poor quality recordings irrespective of dynamic range.

Neither of us said that it wasn't part of the mastering process but is it not true that CD's can be compressed more than vinyl due to the format?

No it is not true.

Understood, I stand corrected, DDC and OD. Then all I can say is that I definitely prefer some recordings on vinyl... This is subjectively true. But I still wouldn't be without CD's because of their versatility.

Objectively too, as some recordings are undoubtedly better on vinyl.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

Bad recordings are inherently why I stopped my upgrade path where I currently am. I have a very large collection of what would be considered pop and a much smaller collection of classical music. I found the higher I went up the upgrade path the more revealing the system became and the worse my pop music collection sounded; carp in = carp out. Guess I will be staying in the low-midfi region for the foreseable future.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Budget cdplayer into a decent amp?

What do you expect?

The amp is basically exposing the player (no pun). You may find you have the same issues ref playback if you're equally as cheap with your TT and stylus.

If you intend on embarking on a spending spree to build your vinyl collection - I would suggest you first audition some decent players around the same cost window as your amp. Bring your amp with you when you do and try various interconnects aswell.

Did you even try the 3020's CD partner?

Marantz 6005 with an exposure 3020s2...... All cdplayer do not sound the same......

 

[peterpan]

What can i do the best to solve the problem?

1. Go to vinyl. But i don't have a turntable and lp's. This will be very expensive. And isn't vinyl a hype? I mean the future is streaming?

2. Change the amp? Will be a Arcam better?

Regardless what you do with Option 1, you will need to solve CD playback as well. I remember you wrote a thread asking for CDP recommendations and obviosly bought the Marantz hoping it will sound warm because people associate Marantz with warmth. Therefore, I will comment only on Option 2, how to improve your CDP + Amplifier setup to sound less harsh and loud.

You don't need to change the amp, just turn the volume down coming from the CD player to prevent clipping in the preamp and increase usable volume knob travel (not to get loud at least till 12 o'clock position). Considering the CD6005 doesn't have volume control, you can buy these passive attenuators that will turn the CDP volume down by a fixed value (selectable -10db, -15db, -20db). These different attenuators are of higher quality but it's totally up to you if and how much you are willing to spend. What is expected to improve with these attenuators is discussed at length in this thread. However, let's not fool ourselves, rubbish recordings will remain what they are.

I have now a Atlas Equator interconnect. How can i connect this with these passive attennuators?

 

[NSA_watch_my_toilet]

It could be a solution. But it will depend about your tastes, because vinyl has a more unpure sound, that is definitely something other than the completely dry and clean sounding CD. Although, you will loose dynamic, because vinyl has a lower dynamic capacity. And it's a mechanical nightmare (having the right cartidge, on the right tonearm with a decent turntable... and then you have the dust problem...). This all will be costly to be putted in place and set correctly (time AND money)

BUT...

Vinyl although have loudness war going on in this moment because you know, "producers." So, Yes, on the old material this wasn't, but you must find good conserved vinyls, what is not always possible and they won't be cheap. And let's not forget, bad mastering was although possible in the old times. So, sometimes, your record can be in good shape, but the quality can be bad.

BUT...
Some things existed only on vinyls. So, some recorded stuff from X or Y musician can only be found on this support.

What is better ? Your taste and priorities will decide it.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

What can i do the best to solve the problem?

1. Go to vinyl. But i don't have a turntable and lp's. This will be very expensive. And isn't vinyl a hype? I mean the future is streaming?

2. Change the amp? Will be a Arcam better?

Regardless what you do with Option 1, you will need to solve CD playback as well. I remember you wrote a thread asking for CDP recommendations and obviosly bought the Marantz hoping it will sound warm because people associate Marantz with warmth. Therefore, I will comment only on Option 2, how to improve your CDP + Amplifier setup to sound less harsh and loud.

You don't need to change the amp, just turn the volume down coming from the CD player to prevent clipping in the preamp and increase usable volume knob travel (not to get loud at least till 12 o'clock position). Considering the CD6005 doesn't have volume control, you can buy these passive attenuators that will turn the CDP volume down by a fixed value (selectable -10db, -15db, -20db). These different attenuators are of higher quality but it's totally up to you if and how much you are willing to spend. What is expected to improve with these attenuators is discussed at length in this thread. However, let's not fool ourselves, rubbish recordings will remain what they are.

I have now a Atlas Equator interconnect. How can i connect this with these passive attennuators?

Sorry to jump in Vlad and peterp. I've just taken delivery of some of these and currently road-testing them. If you decide to go down this route then just plug the attenuators into the cd input on the back of the amp, then plug your interconnects into them - simples. My advice would be to purchase the ones off Amazon first as these are switchable -10, -15, -20, and if you like the result then purchase a better quality pair at a later date at the level of attenuation you prefer. Just my 2p's worth.

 

[Vladimir]

Yes. What DougK said.

This is to take an edge off your overly loud CD player. It will certanly not remedy a bad recording, nothing will.

 

[BigH]

The Dynamic Range Database does not tell you the dynamic range of the recording. It gives the recording a dynamic range value on an arbitary scale from 1 to 20. Thus a recording with an average dynamic range value of 10 does not have a dynamic range of 10dB.

Interesting. Where does it say that? I couldn't see it on the site and presumed (wrongly apparently) exactly that.

Edit: Surely there must be some correlation between the scale used and actual DR?

Yes thats true the figures dont quite try up, if you look at the details you will see. But also its higher than 20, so go up to 27 I believe although its rare to go over 20 I agree. If you click at the top of the DR column you will get the highest or the lowest DR ratings. Highest currently is a John Cage cd with 24 av for the album.