Other thoughts - like others have mentioned, for many people even relatively budget kit is a big outlay and they are convinced or it is easy to convince them that they are buying into a level of sound reproduction only accessible to the few and annointed (congratulations, welcome to the audiophile club).
The occasional debates of where high end begins and the frequently voiced opinion that once you've spent a couple of thousand pounds on any piece of kit the improvements from spending more are minimal/insignificant/placebo, usually followed by a comment about how crap high end kit sounded at a hi fi show.
The occasional debates of where high end begins and the frequently voiced opinion that once you've spent a couple of thousand pounds on any piece of kit the improvements from spending more are minimal/insignificant/placebo, usually followed by a comment about how crap high end kit sounded at a hi fi show.
I'm not worried he'll read this. He considers WHF to be boring waste of time compared to Stereophile.
So Vlad have you invited him by you to hear your well selected and matched system for a listen?
What's his opinion on your set and how much of his advise would you take on board to 'improve' it ?.......
What's his opinion on your set and how much of his advise would you take on board to 'improve' it ?.......
ID and Dave seem to get it, despite my terrible car and food analogies.
Audio pseudoscience (foo, snake oil etc.) used to be something for the wacky, nutty shamanic thinking audiophile who spent huge chunks of money on cartridges, tubes, cables, stands etc. after he comprised the ultimate system and going further was something experimental beyond engineering and rationality. Now it has trickled down to the entry level gear where it used to be no nonsense simple learning about audio basics. How many watts for that speaker, with that much efficiency, in that room size? Understanding spec sheets, cutting through the manufacturers BS. Understanding speaker voicing to better pick the neutral ones from the heavily colored ones. Instead of that I see 'bright speakers go with warm amplifier'. I don't want to be a member of a cheap wine tasting club, not because cheap wine can't be better than expensive wine or vice versa (Thompson), but because it feels silly. A fight in a Shakespearean play is drama, but in a Jerry Springer show it's satire, a bad one.
I'm not specifically talking about this forum, but the hobby in general. I'll illustrate this with an example.
I visit a guy, an acquaintance that just bought a pair of cheap large floorstanders and an entry level integrated amp, as an upgrade from some old Telefunken midi system. He has the speakers 1.5m appart in the middle of the room, along the short wall with the TV in the middle. Naked tiles, leather couch, glass coffee table, windows with light curtains. Speakers are bass reflex and pushed against the back wall and when I gave them the knocking knuckle test, I really though someone would knock back from the hollow. The sound is as you can imagine, not great, very frontal, very loud, boomy yet brain piercing and creates a headache within an hour of playing at moderate levels.
I suggested spreading the speakers appart and bringing them at least 30cm forward, I explained few things, I never said he bought crap. But everything created an argument, an aggression and he refused everything upfront. Aparently the system is so powerful and amazing, your head hurts after just 30 minutes of listening at loud levels (his words). He played loud rock from his youth mostly during this demo. I don't even think his wife was an issue regarding speaker positioning, she is a darling and not burdened with living room OCD.
This type of newb is something I've been through many times and I got used to it. No big deal right? But oh damn, he later bough some fancy branded cables for 50 euros, and a power bar, bi-wired them speakers like a boss. No more use of the tone controls, everything set on direct sound for pure audiophile joy. He's in audiophile waters now, no turning back Jack!
Few months go by and he changed the whole set, upgraded to more established brands (the ones we read here the most). It was time for another visit, to meet the new audiophile, full of wisdom gathered on forums and magazines, now with truly audiophile kit. The neighbors have been calling him mad for spending 800 euros on an amplifier. So extreme! But guess what. The new speakers were in the same position, still pounding chest, but they weren't piercing my head as much because he chose these to be warmer (still open tiles, glass and leather everywhere). He played Dire Straits, female jazz vocals and Miles Davis KOB for us. There was a whole exciting story with details about the adventure in the hi-fi salon, how he succesfully combined warm speakers with slightly more detailed bright amp and everything got perfectly locked in when the speaker cables were added. So good. The shop (read: salon) guy was amazed how he managed to make such a great sounding combo (and within the credit card limits).
I didn't dare suggest anything this time, I just stuffed my face with food and drinks and he did the talking. We all simply noded like bobbleheads. I'm scared to check what phase 3 is.
Audio pseudoscience (foo, snake oil etc.) used to be something for the wacky, nutty shamanic thinking audiophile who spent huge chunks of money on cartridges, tubes, cables, stands etc. after he comprised the ultimate system and going further was something experimental beyond engineering and rationality. Now it has trickled down to the entry level gear where it used to be no nonsense simple learning about audio basics. How many watts for that speaker, with that much efficiency, in that room size? Understanding spec sheets, cutting through the manufacturers BS. Understanding speaker voicing to better pick the neutral ones from the heavily colored ones. Instead of that I see 'bright speakers go with warm amplifier'. I don't want to be a member of a cheap wine tasting club, not because cheap wine can't be better than expensive wine or vice versa (Thompson), but because it feels silly. A fight in a Shakespearean play is drama, but in a Jerry Springer show it's satire, a bad one.
I'm not specifically talking about this forum, but the hobby in general. I'll illustrate this with an example.
I visit a guy, an acquaintance that just bought a pair of cheap large floorstanders and an entry level integrated amp, as an upgrade from some old Telefunken midi system. He has the speakers 1.5m appart in the middle of the room, along the short wall with the TV in the middle. Naked tiles, leather couch, glass coffee table, windows with light curtains. Speakers are bass reflex and pushed against the back wall and when I gave them the knocking knuckle test, I really though someone would knock back from the hollow. The sound is as you can imagine, not great, very frontal, very loud, boomy yet brain piercing and creates a headache within an hour of playing at moderate levels.
I suggested spreading the speakers appart and bringing them at least 30cm forward, I explained few things, I never said he bought crap. But everything created an argument, an aggression and he refused everything upfront. Aparently the system is so powerful and amazing, your head hurts after just 30 minutes of listening at loud levels (his words). He played loud rock from his youth mostly during this demo. I don't even think his wife was an issue regarding speaker positioning, she is a darling and not burdened with living room OCD.
This type of newb is something I've been through many times and I got used to it. No big deal right? But oh damn, he later bough some fancy branded cables for 50 euros, and a power bar, bi-wired them speakers like a boss. No more use of the tone controls, everything set on direct sound for pure audiophile joy. He's in audiophile waters now, no turning back Jack!
Few months go by and he changed the whole set, upgraded to more established brands (the ones we read here the most). It was time for another visit, to meet the new audiophile, full of wisdom gathered on forums and magazines, now with truly audiophile kit. The neighbors have been calling him mad for spending 800 euros on an amplifier. So extreme! But guess what. The new speakers were in the same position, still pounding chest, but they weren't piercing my head as much because he chose these to be warmer (still open tiles, glass and leather everywhere). He played Dire Straits, female jazz vocals and Miles Davis KOB for us. There was a whole exciting story with details about the adventure in the hi-fi salon, how he succesfully combined warm speakers with slightly more detailed bright amp and everything got perfectly locked in when the speaker cables were added. So good. The shop (read: salon) guy was amazed how he managed to make such a great sounding combo (and within the credit card limits).
I didn't dare suggest anything this time, I just stuffed my face with food and drinks and he did the talking. We all simply noded like bobbleheads. I'm scared to check what phase 3 is.
on that level I've felt sorry for experienced and knowledgeable salesmen who are faced by these customers who are now so informed and knowledgeable with their insistence on 5 star products.
a bit of Google expertise can be the bane of doctors too.
Still, he's enjoying his system, right?
a bit of Google expertise can be the bane of doctors too.
Still, he's enjoying his system, right?
@Thompson
No he hasn't. I've moved since then and I'm 200km away, so that visit may take a while before happening.
@ID
Yes he is. I do envy his enthusiasm, which I rarely feel about gear now. However, panels and scanspeak revelators awaken me from the dead within 3 seconds.
No he hasn't. I've moved since then and I'm 200km away, so that visit may take a while before happening.
@ID
Yes he is. I do envy his enthusiasm, which I rarely feel about gear now. However, panels and scanspeak revelators awaken me from the dead within 3 seconds.
Pity, do you consider yourself an audiophile or an enthusiast?
And were does your set lie in the pecking order?
And were does your set lie in the pecking order?
I think there are two fundamental philosophies colliding here. There's the currently favored "whatever sound you enjoy is the right sound" and from that perspective who are you to say what is right and wrong (we're postmodern now so all views are equally valid. What's that? False equivalence you say?).
Then there's the traditional meaning of hi fi meaning actual high fidelity where there is definitely a right way or at least standard for judging things.
He may come around to your way of thinking or end up some way between the two extremes but like most things there are mistakes we have to make for ourselves and journeys/experiences we need to have ourselves.
Then there's the traditional meaning of hi fi meaning actual high fidelity where there is definitely a right way or at least standard for judging things.
He may come around to your way of thinking or end up some way between the two extremes but like most things there are mistakes we have to make for ourselves and journeys/experiences we need to have ourselves.
Thompsonuxb said:
Audiophile since I was 12.
Cobbled up old junk that makes good tunes while I renovate house. Nothing to sing praise about but nothing that offends my ears.
How about you?
You only have the one friend inflicting his system upon you.
As an ex dealer, shop owner and 'hi-fi expert *crazy*' I get asked to check out or 'help' with friends (and friends of friends) on a fairly regular basis. Sometimes these are simple practical matters, how to play my phone through my system for example, but sometimes I get the dreaded full on "what do you think of this" scenario.
The setup is almost always crap, totally unsuited to the owners requirements and room and most often, a complete waste of money. Having learned the hard way I mutter a few platitudes and move the conversation along.
As an ex dealer, shop owner and 'hi-fi expert *crazy*' I get asked to check out or 'help' with friends (and friends of friends) on a fairly regular basis. Sometimes these are simple practical matters, how to play my phone through my system for example, but sometimes I get the dreaded full on "what do you think of this" scenario.
The setup is almost always crap, totally unsuited to the owners requirements and room and most often, a complete waste of money. Having learned the hard way I mutter a few platitudes and move the conversation along.
Vladimir said:
Me?
We'll I'd class myself as an enthusiast.
I'm all about the quality of sound if the equ can deliver I'm happy.
I'm not a box swapper and with what was a modest spend I believe I have a good sounding system.
And it's for that reason I disagree with all you've typed in this thread.....imo, it's nothing more than snobbery.
Like James said 'he got his and I got mine....'
What's there to quibble about?
Thompsonuxb said:
I support people with autism therefore I shall not retaliate in this instance.
Vladimir said:
Yes.... My Yamaha produces a very good sound, with good quality recordings it can be very impressive in fact.
I don't own BX2's?
So now you consider yourself an audiophile, but your kit is not audiophile quality?
Vladimir said:
Mission 782se - read up on them. There old now like the amp but both still work well.
So if I read this right are you complaining about yourself?
An audiophile with non audiophile kit.....
Listening to Prince/Art Official age - Time.
Just sharing.
Vladimir said:
C'mon Vlad, surely you can laugh harder than that.
But if I'm supposed to be embarrassed about owning Mission speakers I'll have to disappoint you.
They are exceptional speakers
Wait is owning Mission speakers worse than owning a Roksan K2/K3.....
Me thinks it's power output is a marketing ploy for those who need.....compensating, in certain areas, if you know what I mean?
currently sales of headphones are booming and I think the increase in computer audiophiles with desktop headphone setups is one area where you can be a "proper" audiophile on a limited budget.
Considering the sound quality and resolution you can achieve for the cost of a budget stereo I think that the top level cans, etc. are within reach of many people and this is a growing field considering how much people these days use their computer as central to their entertainment (net, movies, music).
Of course the market for selling extras has not escaped manufacturers, so there's the same proliferation of cables, software, etc.
considering the sound quality you can achieve for a reasonable outlay, do these people qualify as audiophiles in the strict, old school sense?
Considering the sound quality and resolution you can achieve for the cost of a budget stereo I think that the top level cans, etc. are within reach of many people and this is a growing field considering how much people these days use their computer as central to their entertainment (net, movies, music).
Of course the market for selling extras has not escaped manufacturers, so there's the same proliferation of cables, software, etc.
considering the sound quality you can achieve for a reasonable outlay, do these people qualify as audiophiles in the strict, old school sense?
"An audiophile is a person enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction. Audiophile values may be applied at all stages of music reproduction: the initial audio recording, the production process, and the playback, which is usually in a home setting."
ID. said:
You are quite correct that a decent headphone setup can be had for a lot less than a decent conventional system, but you need to be aware of two things.
1) A lot of headphones may well be sold but the average retail cost is less than £10 pair.
2) In the US at least, in a survey of premium quality headphones, ie over $100 pair, shows that the Beats brand outsold all other brands combined by an order of magnitude.
Sobering.
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