Atmos Speaker Advice

[burbster]

Hi,

I am in the process of upgarding my home cinema set up, I have gone for a pinoeer SCLX59, (awaiting delivery) I am anxious to try out the new Atmos setup. Actual 'in ceiling' speakers are not and option for me.

I have the ability to mount normal (not atmos) speakers high up against the ceiling, two either side of projector screen and a further two to the rear. I can then play around and angle them differently to see what works best.

Just wondering if anyone else has tried this, do you think it will be a waste of time? I have thought about buying the KEF Atmos speakers, but they are expensive and I am a little sceptical as to how effective they can be at created over head effects? Just wondering what peoples thoughts were on atmos in general as well?

 

[ellisdj]

Hi,

I am in the process of upgarding my home cinema set up, I have gone for a pinoeer SCLX59, (awaiting delivery) I am anxious to try out the new Atmos setup. Actual 'in ceiling' speakers are not and option for me.

I have the ability to mount normal (not atmos) speakers high up against the ceiling, two either side of projector screen and a further two to the rear. I can then play around and angle them differently to see what works best.

Just wondering if anyone else has tried this, do you think it will be a waste of time? I have thought about buying the KEF Atmos speakers, but they are expensive and I am a little sceptical as to how effective they can be at created over head effects? Just wondering what peoples thoughts were on atmos in general as well?

I think your doing the right thing dude - using height speakers instead of ceiling can work really well, especially instead of bouncing equivalents - however you want to buy the right ones for the job - what are you current speakers because ideally you want them to tone match same as everything

 

[bigboss]

Yes, you can use height speakers in Atmos configuration. I agree that bounce speakers won't give reliable effects due to too many variabilities.

 

[burbster]

Thanks Guys, at the moment I have B and W 683s with matching centre up front, with wharfdale diamonds for back and rear back, (currently 7. 1setup) I have some old Boston Soundware speakers that I was going to use for the height speakers. I hear what you are saying though, ideally I should match up with the B&Ws but that may take a little time and a very understanding wife! (which I currently dont have

 

[Series1boy]

I'm Installing atmos and dtsx setup with front and rear heights. I have focal speakers at the front and def tech pro monitor speakers for surround, and I'm going to use the same def tech speakers for atmos and dtsx.

I'm really impressed with the sound production from my current def tech speakers and they are perfect for the surround, and they are pretty much reasonable in price.

link for def tech pro monitor speakers below, scroll down to the bottom:

http://www.definitivetech.com/products/surround-speakers/

However, there are other similar speakers with other brands and I would advise on demoing first if you can.

 

[bigboss]

Thanks Guys, at the moment I have B and W 683s with matching centre up front, with wharfdale diamonds for back and rear back, (currently 7. 1setup) I have some old Boston Soundware speakers that I was going to use for the height speakers. I hear what you are saying though, ideally I should match up with the B&Ws but that may take a little time and a very understanding wife! (which I currently dont have

All I would suggest is: do it once, do it right. You're using 3 different brands of speakers here.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

I wouldn't sweat it.

Try it with the ones you have first. If there's something you don't like you can always change them.

FWIW I keep pushing Klipsch RP140SA speakers for this kind of role. No, I don't work for Klipsch, not even sure you can get these particluar speakers in the UK. They are, however, cased to point at an angle down into the room, fitted where the walls meet the ceiling. Might be a bit difficult with coving, but...

 

[burbster]

Thanks Guys for all the advice, I think I will try the Atmos setup with my current speakers but will take on board that I really need to get a single brand to match in. I think I may have made a rod for my own back by going for the B&Ws up front, the matched speakers are quite expensive.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Certainly I wouldn't say you should have, or get away with, say, a B&W floorstander front left and a Wharfedale bookshelf front right, but just remember some retailers might have a vested interest in telling you that you need all the same brand / series speakers all around. And some people will swallow that line, erm, hook, line and sinker. You don't. So long as you can hear them, they'll do fine, and you can use the volume equalization controls on your receiver to compensate for more / less sensitive units. Heck, I have Yamaha-has all round and I still turn some up beyond what they EQ setup says because I like to hear the surround sound effect more than is necessary for so-say perfect reproduction.

You wouldn't believe a tyre dealer that told you just because your front left had a puncture that you needed all four tyres replaced, or that if you've got Michelins on all four wheels right now but want to change the front two to Pirellis now and the other two when they wear out, that you need to replace all four now, would you?

And remember, high level Atmos speakers, like all surround speakers, really, are mainly for atmosphere and surround sound effects, not critical listening.

 

[bigboss]

And remember, high level Atmos speakers, like all surround speakers, really, are mainly for atmosphere and surround sound effects, not critical listening.

No, Atmos speakers are very different to surround speakers. While surrounds are mainly "presence" speakers, Atmos speakers can be as powerful as the fronts. So it is important for them to have a good frequency range.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

My speakers happen to all be rated to 50 wpc nominal, but I have dual woofer + single tweeter fronts, 3-way rears and sides, and concentric round 2-ways in the ceiling. Can't say I notice any difference. I'm certainly not fitting flipping great MTMs in three extra walls or at four places in the ceiling. Totally unnecessary.
So long as the speakers have the typical 20 (or dare I say 50) to 20 kHz range they'll do fine.
Next you'll be selling the old line that used to pervade when CD players first came out - you need "digital" speakers as well. (FWIW one salesman over here recently tried to tell me I needed fibre optic - yes fibre optic - speakers in my Mercedes).

 

[bigboss]

So long as the speakers have the typical 20 (or dare I say 50) to 20 kHz range they'll do fine.

Those Boston speakers the OP intends to use have a range of 90Hz - 20kHz. That's exactly why I don't think they will do adequate justice to Atmos effect. You need a minimum of 50Hz with a good subwoofer.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Maybe so, but then most HT systems rely on subwoofers for LF effects anyway, and not all of us can hear right down to 20 Hz or lower. Elephants and whales (did I mention my wife?) excluded, of course.

I'd still give them a try and see how he gets on. I never will buy into the "must all be the same brand / series" mantra that shady dealers (none around here, of course) will peddle. Sure, if you buy a complete, say, Monitor Audio package, that's great, but an awful lot of us started out with two stereo speakers, or add really good stereo speakers, as our fronts, then add on the rest with whatever pocket money we've got left.

I picked up relatively modest Yamaha-ha in-walls on Amazon, mostly as knocked-down open box returns, typically $100 to $150 a pair, and I'm very happy with the result as far as surround sound goes. I should be, I've bought nine pairs of the darned things. Three pairs are sitting in the attic waiting for the next phase of my HT (a 4K projector and screen) and another project, but 6 pairs are already in my media room walls and ceiling. On the other hand, I wouldn't rate them at all for listening to music, other than as background musak in the rest of the house.

 

[bigboss]

Maybe so, but then most HT systems rely on subwoofers for LF effects anyway, and not all of us can hear right down to 20 Hz or lower.  Elephants and whales (did I mention my wife?) excluded, of course.

I'd still give them a try and see how he gets on.  I never will buy into the "must all be the same brand / series" mantra that shady dealers (none around here, of course) will peddle.  Sure, if you buy a complete, say, Monitor Audio package, that's great, but an awful lot of us started out with two stereo speakers, or add really good stereo speakers, as our fronts, then add on the rest with whatever pocket money we've got left.

I picked up relatively modest Yamaha-ha in-walls on Amazon, mostly as knocked-down open box returns, typically $100 to $150 a pair, and I'm very happy with the result as far as surround sound goes.  I should be, I've bought nine pairs of the darned things.  Three pairs are sitting in the attic waiting for the next phase of my HT (a 4K projector and screen) and another project, but 6 pairs are already in my media room walls and ceiling.  On the other hand, I wouldn't rate them at all for listening to music, other than as background musak in the rest of the house.

 

 

At which frequency does LF start from? Yes, you can set a high crossover point of 100Hz or more. But 60-90Hz is a very useful range to have in any speaker.

Any speaker will work, but the reason for OP to ask the question is whether it will work well. The grunt of a Ferrari sounds different to a Lamborghini even if they have same BHP. I have heard a badly mismatched setup where the surrounds were of a different brand.....couldn't help noticing the surround speakers (when they're meant to blend in). They don't have to be the same brand....but should share similar characteristics for a more cohesive effect.

The lower frequency range of subwoofer isn't just meant to be heard.....it's meant to be felt. It's that thump you feel.

 

[Joe10155]

I'm not sure how much of a low frequency range is needed for Atmos (I don't have it, and won't for quite a while); but I did look up the frequency range for the Klipsch RP140SA speakers on the Klipsch web site and all it says it that they comply with the Atmos requirements. I then checked the spec for the KEF R50's and it's 105Hz - 18.5kHz, so they don't go that low really. I wonder what the Atmos spec says? I do agree though that a wider/lower range would be preferable.

 

[bigboss]

I'm not sure how much of  a low frequency range is needed for Atmos (I don't have it, and won't for quite a while); but I did look up the frequency range for the Klipsch RP140SA speakers on the Klipsch web site and all it says it that they comply with the Atmos requirements.  I then checked the spec for the KEF R50's and it's 105Hz - 18.5kHz, so they don't go that low really.  I wonder what the Atmos spec says?  I do agree though that a wider/lower range would be preferable.

The frequency range for "bounce" speakers will be higher, because only higher frequencies can reflect sound. That's why I don't think they're ideal for true Atmos effect.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

I looked at the Kilpsch spec sheet:

http://images.klipsch.com/RP-140SA_-_Spec_Sheet_635726428757778000.pdf

and you're right. All it does say is ""conforms to Atmos specification", which isn't too encouraging. I thought they were designed to be hung where wall meets ceiling and pointed downwards, not plonked on top of other speakers and pointed upwards. People commenting on Amazon US say they have keyhole slots designed for this sort of use, however, and a couple of people say they've used them this way, either for front heights or rear heights. So, by extension, they're probably okay for, erm, side heights as well, just not as good as proper directly-over-your-head in-ceilings.

As many have observed, using Atmos speakers that bounce sound off the ceiling can be a bit hit and miss. So I'd avoid doing that.

And as for frequency response, does anybody really expect huge bass from woofers that are only 4 or 5 inches in diameter?

 

[bigboss]

And as for frequency response, does anybody really expect huge bass from woofers that are only 4 or 5 inches in diameter?

No. They should have a decent mid and upper range, with a good subwoofer to handle the lower frequencies.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

And as for frequency response, does anybody really expect huge bass from woofers that are only 4 or 5 inches in diameter?

No. They should have a decent mid and upper range, with a good subwoofer to handle the lower frequencies.

Agreed. So why worry if the lower limit is 80 or 50 or 20 Hz?

 

[bigboss]

I was once told by a dealer, if you have a kickass sub, you can get away with murder (i.e., the speakers can be compromised in quality). You'll need to make sure to set a high crossover point. I know ellisdj sets his crossover point to 150Hz.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Wasn't selling Nose (ahem) systems was he?

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Feedback on the Amzon website is that the Klipsch units are good for wall-meets-ceiling use.

Given they cost $400 a pair, though, I'd be tempted to experiment with a used pair of bookshelf speakers off Fleabay and a saw through the cabinets first....

 

[Joe10155]

The frequency range for "bounce" speakers will be higher, because only higher frequencies can reflect sound. That's why I don't think they're ideal for true Atmos effect.

[/quote]

Didn't think about that, good call.

I am (was?) possibly thinking that when I finally get round to redecorating (and replacing my TV & AV receiver), I would swop out my front pair B&W M1's (80Hz-23kHz) with my spare B&W 685's and reuse the M1's wall mounted at ceiling level pointing down to provide an Atmos or height effect.

I currently use 5No. B&W M1's & a B&W610 sub set up; and have a centre HTM62 waiting along with the pair of 685's already mentioned.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

The frequency range for "bounce" speakers will be higher, because only higher frequencies can reflect sound. That's why I don't think they're ideal for true Atmos effect.

Didn't think about that, good call.

I am (was?) possibly thinking that when I finally get round to redecorating (and replacing my TV & AV receiver), I would swop out my front pair B&W M1's (80Hz-23kHz) with my spare B&W 685's and reuse the M1's wall mounted at ceiling level pointing down to provide an Atmos or height effect.

I currently use 5No. B&W M1's & a B&W610 sub set up; and have a centre HTM62 waiting along with the pair of 685's already mentioned.

[/quote]

Erm, I don't think the idea of artex-cracking bass is what Atmos speakers are about. It's a surround sound effect, after all. FWIW I'm thoroughly enjoying my Atmos with 50 Hz - 28 kHz in-ceiling speakers.