ATC SCM100asl lacking in bass?

[BrianRostron]

Much interesting debate here! As the chap who actually auditioned these things recently, I would like to be clear that you could hear all bass notes down to very low frequecies. The problem was that things like bass guitars, electronic bass etc was very very quiet versus the mid range. I suspect that the ATC's do not have the "massive bass" as mentioned in the WHF review, but at the same time I think the room I heard them in was way too small. Has anyone actually heard these beasts? I suspect that in a bigger room and hence with a little more volume, they may have sounded very different?

 

[jaxwired]

Much interesting debate here! As the chap who actually auditioned these things recently, I would like to be clear that you could hear all bass notes down to very low frequecies. The problem was that things like bass guitars, electronic bass etc was very very quiet versus the mid range. I suspect that the ATC's do not have the "massive bass" as mentioned in the WHF review, but at the same time I think the room I heard them in was way too small. Has anyone actually heard these beasts? I suspect that in a bigger room and hence with a little more volume, they may have sounded very different?

ATC does not make a speaker with "massive bass". Anyone that thinks so simply has never heard massive bass or even live music for that matter.

The really funny thing is, I like ATC speakers very much. They are extremely accurate and have amazing mid range clarity. But I believe in being completely honest with myself. They don't do bass well. They all sound bass light to me. And not because it's just so incredibly accurate and clean, not the case. They sound bass light due to a lack of bass (seems like a straight forward connection to me).

 

[BrianRostron]

Many thanks to Jaxwired there! (Out of interest, have you actually listened to the 100's or other ARC's in the range) At least it gives me some hope that I not completely insane or just want to hear sound different to every other hi fi fan on the planet.

I guess I was hoping to find others on here that had Auditioned the 100's. Although, they are very rare beasts. (maybe a reason for that) From the ATC website there are no dealers within 100 miles of my home, although their factory is less than an hours drive! When I get the time I think I might try to get a demo at the factory (which I'm told is possible). Has anyone else tried this? i.e. what are their demo facilities like.

In other news, I need to go to Oxford today for other reasons but I note a dealer there has the new PMC Fact 12's on demo. I'll try to get a demo while I'm there and see how those little 5.5" drivers and ATL cabs get on in comparison, should be interesting!

 

[CnoEvil]

Many thanks to Jaxwired there! (Out of interest, have you actually listened to the 100's or other ARC's in the range) At least it gives me some hope that I not completely insane or just want to hear sound different to every other hi fi fan on the planet.

I guess I was hoping to find others on here that had Auditioned the 100's. Although, they are very rare beasts. (maybe a reason for that) From the ATC website there are no dealers within 100 miles of my home, although their factory is less than an hours drive! When I get the time I think I might try to get a demo at the factory (which I'm told is possible). Has anyone else tried this? i.e. what are their demo facilities like.

In other news, I need to go to Oxford today for other reasons but I note a dealer there has the new PMC Fact 12's on demo. I'll try to get a demo while I'm there and see how those little 5.5" drivers and ATL cabs get on in comparison, should be interesting!

Is it this crowd: http://www.oxfordaudio.co.uk/index.html

If it is, they also do Kef, so try and get a listen to R900s, 207/2s / 205/2s. If they have the Blades set up, then they are well worth hearing.

 

[AlmaataKZ]

Brian, my system thread has reports about 50s and 100s in various rooms with and without ATC and Rel subs and from a visit to ATC factory.

 

[BrianRostron]

AlmaataKZ - Thanks for the link, a very interesting read! I think your initial observations were very similar to mine, your "out of phase" comment kind of nails it. Deep bass is there but too quiet at 60hz or so etc. Spot on. With a sub? Given the other positives of the ATC's, a very interesting prospect.

CnoEvil - Yes, Oxford audio. I had a listen to the PMC Fact 12's. Very impressed indeed and something I could happily live with and listen to for years. As this thread is focusing on the ATC's bass performance, well in comparison the PMC's are far more balenced and have easily enough bass for my taste, so the earlier comments re Citroen Saxo sub woofers etc. now seem a little harsh.

It's worth me giving a plug to the guys at Oxford, easy going and happy to help. The offered me a chance to listen to the Kef Blades. Now 20k is a LOT of cash for a pair of speakers, but I absolutely loved them. The law of diminishing returns failed here, the Blades sounded like they were worth every penny of 10k more than the PMC's, superb. Back to the bass thread, the Blades sounded like they were flat to beyond the audible down to being felt. On paper, the bass roll off looks similar to the ATC's, in practice, no comparison. If anything, the blades sounded like they had maybe too much bass on some tracks, but no boom or other issues. Regarding mid range clarity, again excellent, I could write for ages but listening to Zeplin's "Whole Lotta love", I nearly cried with emotion these things were so good. (genuinely!) I thought I could get the system of my dreams for 15k, then some sod demos 20k worth of kit (or 30k with amp, plus whatever for the front end) and suddenly you are re evaluating what's possible or more importantly, what you can justify spending on Hi Fi. I loved the Blades, and at least you could save some cash by not needing a sub.

Well worth a listen for anyone in range of Oxford, but be warned, you might realy want them. (and end up selling the GF's car or something)

 

[CnoEvil]

Glad you heard some different alternatives, which often helps to get some perspective.

The Blades are very impressive, and they are inclined to make whatever they are compared to, sound wanting.......though the R Series do give a taste of them.

 

[AlmaataKZ]

Brian, at this level of budget taking time to compare options is a must. Travelling to where you can have a demo e.g. will be a fraction of the budget.

 

[AlmaataKZ]

Brian,

Let's say bass can be:

high on quantity, high on quality

high on quantity, low on quality

low on quantity, high on quality

low on quantity, low on quality

(by quantity I mean depth, not loudness level).

It is very easy to fall for the second option here while looking for the first. It is also easy to underestimate the third option, but it is better than the second.

let me try to explain what I mean. In this link is an example of low frequency speaker performance. http://www.linkwitzlab.com/thor-measmt.htm

You can see from the graphs, especially no 6 that there could be loads of distortion in low bass. The human ear is more sensitive to higher bass than the lower so you hear the harmonics more. So while there seems to be lots of bass and it seems deep, as there are lots of higher harmonics at nearly the same level your brain cannot tell which note is actually playing. The bass is there, lots of it, but the bass reproduced cannot follow the bass tune. This is option 2 above. Typical consumer speakers with small bass drivers and various resonators like ports and transmission lines work with high or very high bass distortion. They do impress with quantity during auditions but can disappoint later due to lack of accuracy.

here is a quote from the link

...

This means that if the 40 Hz 2nd harmonic of a 20 Hz tone is at a 24 dB lower level, then it will sound equally as loud as the fundamental. This corresponds to 6% 2nd harmonic distortion. The 3rd harmonic distortion would have to be below 1%, or over 38 dB down, in order that it is less loud than the 20 Hz fundamental. It all leads to very low distortion requirements. The fundamental frequency sound pressure level needs to be above 70 dB to even become audible and it should not be masked by higher frequency distortion products.

...

My advice is to look for speakers with high quantity (deep) AND high quality bass, and not just high quantity. I think your budget allows that.

 

[BrianRostron]

AlmaataKZ - Interesting stuff. As for the quantity + quality aim, the Blades have got both as far as I can tell. I re-listened to some of the tracks I heard on the Blades at home today, on my system I am not far off on quantity but the quality is not there, a kind of muddy bass with nothing like the resolution that the Blades managed. So now I am clear regarding what I'm looking for. And yes, I plan to take my time, travel to wherever I can get demos and get to hear what I can, it should be interesting.

The Blades were so good though, I might just end up buying a pair. However, at that sort of money you realy do have to listen to as many alternatives as possible. It's almost a once in a lifetime purchase, so needs to be right.

Thanks for your wise words!

 

[AlmaataKZ]

AlmaataKZ - Interesting stuff. As for the quantity + quality aim, the Blades have got both as far as I can tell. I re-listened to some of the tracks I heard on the Blades at home today, on my system I am not far off on quantity but the quality is not there, a kind of muddy bass with nothing like the resolution that the Blades managed. So now I am clear regarding what I'm looking for. And yes, I plan to take my time, travel to wherever I can get demos and get to hear what I can, it should be interesting.

The Blades were so good though, I might just end up buying a pair. However, at that sort of money you realy do have to listen to as many alternatives as possible. It's almost a once in a lifetime purchase, so needs to be right.

Thanks for your wise words!

good luck!