ATC SCM100asl lacking in bass?

[Macspur]

Brian,

If you could let us know whereabouts you are based, then might be able to suggest some dealers for you.

Yes, you are right, it is hard work, but the key is to take your time and don't rush into a purchase you might regret.

Mac

 

[BrianRostron]

A very good point ....

My location is Newbury, Berkshire.

 

[crang]

Yes your right on that , excuse my ignorance but does the pre-amp make the bass that much beefier ? As I said they both have 350 watt total amplification ?

cheers

 

[lindsayt]

ATC actives (like many other active speakers) have better controlled bass than passive speakers. If you've not heard them before it does initially seem a bit like they have less bass which they don't. They just don't have the extra 'boom' and 'overhang' that passive speakers do. It does sometimes take a little of time listening before you become accustomed to this extra control but once you do it's hard to go back to passives without noticing the bass lacking a bit of its definition and 'booming'.

When compared to Bozak Symphonies the active ATC's that I've heard do not have better controlled bass. The ATC's have leaner bass. Lean to the extent that they tend to filter out bass guitars and bass drums - which the vast majority of domestic speakers also tend to do. Filter it out so that it becomes hard to follow the bass guitar line when the rest of the band are playing. Active ATC's may well be better in the bass than typical small 2 way ported standmounts, but they are not as good in the bass as Bozak Symphonies - not for quality nor quantity.

Go to a live band and you will be able to hear ALL the intruments clearly and be able to focus on and follow each of them at will.

Bozak Concert Grands have slightly better bass (more impact and a little bit more extension) than the Symphonies at the expense of slightly worse imaging. Neither speaker are ideal for nearfield lsitening (closer than 10 feet) unless you modify them by disconnecting 6 of the 8 tweeters (comb effects).

EV Patrician 800's have more extended and dynamic bass than Bozak Symphonies at the expense of the upper bass being not quite as tight as the Bozaks. The Patricians have a more open, dynamic midrange with better bite and clarity than the Bozaks.

Anyway, if not these exact models, something like them should provide the OP with the sort of sound that he is after. High end, purist, very large sealed box or corner horn designs. For speakers with a much smaller cabinet size, something like Yamaha NS 1000's or Celstion Ditton 66's are a good compromise.

 

[hoopsontoast]

You may well find they sound better in a larger room, small rooms will have a similar effect to rolling off the bass and creating more mid bass issues.

I have only heard the Active 50s in various rooms, out of the larger ones and they sounded spot on, I can't imagine the 100s being that bass light.

The NS-1000 is an excellent choice, although the NS-1000m is more common. Lovely lovely speakers and excellent deep bass considering the modest sealed cabinet. Also easy to drive, sounded good with a Decware Zen @ 2-3wpc, although if its bass you are after, at higher volumes something a little more powerfull might be needed although 20-50w would be more than enough.

The 50ASL and a sub sounds like a good compromise. If you actually like the 'ATC' presentation that is.

 

[JMacMan]

As you're a serious prospective buyer, I'd be surprised if you couldn't swing a home demo. You need to hear them in your own environment to double check, and also to give yourself a chance to adjust to their sound.

Bass isn't all about those wobbly unfocused low frequencies that come out of Citroen Saxos. If you're used to that it can come as a bit of a shock.

FWIW. I'm selling a 12" sub, and getting a 10" one. The bigger the jelly, the longer it wobbles.

Have you heard B&O ? I'm going to listen to some Beolab 9s soon, and there's also the very expensive Beolab 5.

I'm both suprised and impressed to read of a recommendation to hear B&O products - especially from an owner of 'that' brand that is so contentious on these forums.

You may well not like the B&O product, but good on you for having an open mind about them - respect...

I'd suggest that you try to hear them on both music and movies, as they excel on both.

JB

 

[Macspur]

A very good point ....

My location is Newbury, Berkshire.

Can't find too much in the immediate area, but here are a few of very good dealers not a million miles away from you

www.audioconsultants.co.uk

www.oxfordaudio.co.uk

www.guildfordaudio.co.uk

I've had dealings with the latter two, good guys to deal with and no problem with home demoes.

or if you fancy trying some Electrocompaniet gear

www.audiodestination.co.uk

based in Devon, but only too happy to courier kit to you for home demo for the cost of shipping... Mike and Caroline, lovely people to deal with too.

Mac

 

[richardw42]

I think I probably thought of B&O a bit like bose

it was only reading some of your posts that made me rethink them. I have some memories of a friends dads system years ago but that's it

im really keen to hear the Beolabs 9, although I'm really unlikely to replace my adm40s. Luckily for my wallet, I find the Beolab 5s visually unappealing, whereas the 9s might be the best looking speakers out there.

 

[BenLaw]

When compared to Bozak Symphonies the active ATC's that I've heard do not have better controlled bass. The ATC's have leaner bass. Lean to the extent that they tend to filter out bass guitars and bass drums - which the vast majority of domestic speakers also tend to do. Filter it out so that it becomes hard to follow the bass guitar line when the rest of the band are playing. Active ATC's may well be better in the bass than typical small 2 way ported standmounts, but they are not as good in the bass as Bozak Symphonies - not for quality nor quantity.

Have your views changed much since you first got the Symphonies? http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=67564

Clearly you liked them a lot, but you also said, (1) super tweeter may need adding as rolled off treble, (2) mid-range and treble muffled and shut in compared to Briks, (3) extremely directional, (4) mid-range and treble realistically require tube amp, (5) (FWIW) look nicer in real life but even that's not saying a lot.

On that assessment they don't sound like much of an all rounder.

Go to a live band and you will be able to hear ALL the intruments clearly and be able to focus on and follow each of them at will.

Well you mentioned bass guitar, so what you'll hear and the quality of it will depend on the amplification and speakers at the venue. I prefer the bass I get at home to pretty much any amplified gig I've been to, in a variety of venues.

 

[lindsayt]

Ben, yes my views on the Bozaks have changed since making that post on pfm. I discovered that I had two 8 ohm bass cones in my Symphonies and not two 16 ohm bass drivers. I converted them to active bi-amping mode, as suggested and recommended by the Bozak Yahoo users group. This addressed all of the major issues I initially had with them. I also played with their positioning - changing them from firing across the room to down the room and bringing them out into the room by a couple of feet to get cleaner less echoey bass. The midrange is now at least as good as with my Briks, but not as good as my EV Patricians - as I've already said in this thread. I find that my Briks just sound thin and weedy compared to my Bozak Symphonies now. And compared to the EV Patricians, my Briks sound hi-fi-ish - as opposed to live-ish.

I don't know what system you have Ben. I haven't heard your system. I haven't been to the same gigs as you. So I can't comment on the sound of bass guitar on your system compared to that from the gigs you've been to. One bet I am willing to make is that bass guitar on my Bozak system sounds better than bass guitar on your system. Bring your system round and we can compare them. If your system's better for bass guitar you can keep my speakers (or the cash equivalent of what I paid for them). If my system's better for bass guitar I get to keep your speakers? How does that sound for a bet?

 

[DocG]

I discovered that I had two 8 ohm bass cones in my Symphonies and not two 16 ohm bass drivers. I converted them to active bi-amping mode, as suggested and recommended by the Bozak Yahoo users group. This addressed all of the major issues I initially had with them.

Hi lindsayt,

Can I pop in for a sideway question? I consider buying a pair of 'Gunned' Magnepan MMGs. The MMGs are flat 4 Ohm 2-way speakers. After the mod, they have the XO in a seperate box. Now, if I would use an active XO (instead of Peter Gunn's passive XO), with separate amps for each driver, would that make them 8 Ohm loads? Lacking any knowledge on the matter, I might be completely wrong, but I thought I could deduct this from your post. Right or (probably) wrong?

As for your bet with Ben: the winner will get the lesser speakers... That'll make no one happy...

 

[BenLaw]

Hi Lindsay,

thanks for the comprehensive reply.

I think you'd accept that some of the changes you've ably made to those speakers are beyond the efforts or skills of many of the people you recommend them to. As I understood your pfm posts, the 8ohm bass drivers are more commonly found on those speakers, so someone buying them second hand would more likely end up with the inferior version, as you initially did. It still seems to me therefore that those speakers are 1 tricky to get hold of, certainly in decent condition, 2 not necessarily a great all rounder without modifications requiring some effort and confidence, 3 not necessarily practical in a modern home (although I recognise the point you've previously made that compromises on the basis of looks and size is contrary to the hifi ideal).

As you recognise, I didn't comment on my bass v your bass, I commented on my bass v bass at gigs I've experienced. So kind as it is I'll pass up the bet You have bigger drivers (and more?) so physics tells me you'll get deeper bass. I suppose if I put my sub into my stereo setup it might get close but I don't know. I wasn't saying my system goes as deep as club or gig systems I've heard just that I prefer the quality / accuracy of the bass my system produces, and if I have to choose between distorted deep bass and more accurate but less extended bass I'd go for the latter.

It's a kind offer to do a bake off but from recollection you live a long way from me (I'm in Stockport) and a one year old means I don't have the spare time to cart kit around the country!

 

[AlmaataKZ]

but there is more to this than me not being used to the boom free "hi fi sound"

What is it?

 

[jaxwired]

I was luck enough to listen to some ATC SCM100asl speakers at the weekend. These have been on my "buy" shortlist for some time and I had very high expectations. In many ways they did not dissapoint. Superb clarity, detail, zero distortion good imaging etc. There was just one issue, there seamed to be a complete lack of meaningfull bass. The bass was there, very low frequencies could be heard, but the whole thing seamed completely out of ballance and very tonally light. Splendid mid range and little else. The demo room was a little small and was fitted with bass traps, so I fugure things would be a little better in my own home (14" by 20" room), no bass traps, however, I would need a massive improvement in the levels of bass to be happy. Has anyone else had similar experiences? The What HI Fi review states massive bass, I got tiny bass! Any thoughs or direct experience of the same would be of much interest.

If you want all that super clean clear midrange WITH bass go look at PMC IB2i speakers. Every bit as good in the mids and highs as the ATC SCM100 but with superb deep powerful (yet still articulate and clean) bass. Don't know what the price diff is, but at the level your looking at I'm sure the PMC IB2i would be in the ball park. Highly recommend this speaker.

 

[jaxwired]

Bass isn't all about those wobbly unfocused low frequencies that come out of Citroen Saxos. If you're used to that it can come as a bit of a shock.

Totally unfair comment. Go listen to live music. Get anywhere near a real drum kit and the bass will knock you in the chest with power. ATC's don't do that under the best conditions. ATC bass is really a case of the emperor's new clothes. Bass so clean and accurate, you can't even hear it. Lol!

 

[Electro]

I was luck enough to listen to some ATC SCM100asl speakers at the weekend. These have been on my "buy" shortlist for some time and I had very high expectations. In many ways they did not dissapoint. Superb clarity, detail, zero distortion good imaging etc. There was just one issue, there seamed to be a complete lack of meaningfull bass. The bass was there, very low frequencies could be heard, but the whole thing seamed completely out of ballance and very tonally light. Splendid mid range and little else. The demo room was a little small and was fitted with bass traps, so I fugure things would be a little better in my own home (14" by 20" room), no bass traps, however, I would need a massive improvement in the levels of bass to be happy. Has anyone else had similar experiences? The What HI Fi review states massive bass, I got tiny bass! Any thoughs or direct experience of the same would be of much interest.

If you want all that super clean clear midrange WITH bass go look at PMC IB2i speakers. Every bit as good in the mids and highs as the ATC SCM100 but with superb deep powerful (yet still articulate and clean) bass. Don't know what the price diff is, but at the level your looking at I'm sure the PMC IB2i would be in the ball park. Highly recommend this speaker.

I agree the IB2i is a very good recommendation especially as the OP particularly liked the PB1i's that he heard .

The IB2i 's should sound even better if the room is capable of handling them .

 

[Electro]

Bass isn't all about those wobbly unfocused low frequencies that come out of Citroen Saxos. If you're used to that it can come as a bit of a shock.

Totally unfair comment. Go listen to live music. Get anywhere near a real drum kit and the bass will knock you in the chest with power. ATC's don't do that under the best conditions. ATC bass is really a case of the emperor's new clothes. Bass so clean and accurate, you can't even hear it. Lol!

I agree with this too

 

[richardw42]

Bass isn't all about those wobbly unfocused low frequencies that come out of Citroen Saxos. If you're used to that it can come as a bit of a shock.

Totally unfair comment. Go listen to live music. Get anywhere near a real drum kit and the bass will knock you in the chest with power. ATC's don't do that under the best conditions. ATC bass is really a case of the emperor's new clothes. Bass so clean and accurate, you can't even hear it. Lol!

are we comparing a drum kit to a sub in the back of a Saxo ?

I was talking generally and not about ATC specifically

 

[jaxwired]

are we comparing a drum kit to a sub in the back of a Saxo ?

I was talking generally and not about ATC specifically

I'm just referring to this same old argument that get's hauled out everytime someone complains a speaker has no bass. People that post that are almost universally attacked as ignorant dolts that think bass is suppose to sound like Ice T's Escalade and they lack the sophistication and good taste to recognize accurate and clean bass reproduction. It's a tired argument and you have to wonder at some point why so many people have this complaint about certain speakers. Perhaps the speakers really are bass light? Robbing the music of the richness that low frequencies should be providing? ATC doesn't try to hide it. There's a reason they make the refrigerator sized SCM300. They need that volume to get deep bass from their speaker designs. Most ATC speakers start rolling off the bass at 60hz.. This will result in a lean unbalanced sound IMO.

 

[richardw42]

I wasn't using it as a definitive argument. Just a consideration that may have been relevant to the OP.

Pi certainly didn't intend to try and lecture on how things should be.

 

[richardw42]

There's something weird about iPads and this forum. When I start a new sentence with I, it comes out as Pi. ????????

 

[BenLaw]

are we comparing a drum kit to a sub in the back of a Saxo ?

I was talking generally and not about ATC specifically

I'm just referring to this same old argument that get's hauled out everytime someone complains a speaker has no bass. People that post that are almost universally attacked as ignorant dolts that think bass is suppose to sound like Ice T's Escalade and they lack the sophistication and good taste to recognize accurate and clean bass reproduction. It's a tired argument and you have to wonder at some point why so many people have this complaint about certain speakers. Perhaps the speakers really are bass light? Robbing the music of the richness that low frequencies should be providing? ATC doesn't try to hide it. There's a reason they make the refrigerator sized SCM300. They need that volume to get deep bass from their speaker designs. Most ATC speakers start rolling off the bass at 60hz.. This will result in a lean unbalanced sound IMO.

Don't agree with any of that. 300s are made for increased SPLs, not to get bass.

Struggling to find a FR graph for 50s or 100s but the 70s are here: http://www.hometheater.com/content/atc-multichannel-concept-7-collection-powered-surround-speaker-system-measurements

Bass pretty much flat down to 40hz.

 

[jaxwired]

are we comparing a drum kit to a sub in the back of a Saxo ?

I was talking generally and not about ATC specifically

I'm just referring to this same old argument that get's hauled out everytime someone complains a speaker has no bass. People that post that are almost universally attacked as ignorant dolts that think bass is suppose to sound like Ice T's Escalade and they lack the sophistication and good taste to recognize accurate and clean bass reproduction. It's a tired argument and you have to wonder at some point why so many people have this complaint about certain speakers. Perhaps the speakers really are bass light? Robbing the music of the richness that low frequencies should be providing? ATC doesn't try to hide it. There's a reason they make the refrigerator sized SCM300. They need that volume to get deep bass from their speaker designs. Most ATC speakers start rolling off the bass at 60hz.. This will result in a lean unbalanced sound IMO.

Don't agree with any of that. 300s are made for increased SPLs, not to get bass.

Struggling to find a FR graph for 50s or 100s but the 70s are here: http://www.hometheater.com/content/atc-multichannel-concept-7-collection-powered-surround-speaker-system-measurements

Bass pretty much flat down to 40hz.

Looks like 50hz not 40hz to me and what weirdo ATC is that anyway. Never heard of it. If you look at the specs on one of their regular speakers like say the SCM50 which has a 9.2" bass driver and a rather large cabinet by modern standards, they list the bass as down 6db at 38hz. Now most speaker manufacturers list their low frequency response based on -3db, not -6db. By the time you get to -6db, it's basically non-existant. So with the SCM50 you have a large, very expensive speaker with a larger than typical woofer that has bass down to about 45 hz tops and that's being generous. Now compare that to the PMC TB2i which is down 3db at 40hz has a 6.5" woofer and is in a small stand mount cabinet. Or compare it to dozens of other speakers that have more bass from smaller woofers and less cabinet volume.

Also, you are wrong, the bigger cabinet is absolutely for increased bass and not for higher SPLs. In fact, if you look at the ATC specs for the SCM50, 100, and 150, they list the max continuous SPL output and while they increase very slightly for the larger cabinet, the difference is minimal. They are practically identical in terms of SPL output. Of course the larger cabinets are for the increased bass. I suppose you think that the larger woofers in the larger models is also for SPL output? Ridiculous.

 

[BenLaw]

If you look at the graph it doesn't start to dip below zero db til about 38hz. This also accords with the text. Perhaps your judgment is clouded.

I don't see the relevance of calling them 'weirdo' speakers or of your ignorance of having 'never heard of them'.

Seems to me your data on the PMCs drivers just proves the point everyone's been trying to get through to you. I don't argue ATC give the deepest bass; the argument is it is relatively flat and undistorted. Until we see a FR graph for the PMCs we can't see how flat it is. I'd wager not as flat as the ATC.

Noteworthy that ATC gives FR specs of -2 db for a frequency range, ie where it's pretty much flat.

Ive felt and seen PMC v ATC drivers. There is no comparison. The PMC are horribly flimsy things.

Sorry I wasn't clear about the larger models in my earlier very short post. Of course there is deeper output with the larger drivers and, with the 300s, the greater number of them. I would suggest their main use (obviously in a professional setting) will be for increased SPL rather than bass depth. Most studios choosing between 200s and 300s will be in a position to use subwoofers.

 

[lindsayt]

Ben Law, I live 23 miles from the centre of Stockport. That's a long way to walk, but not too far to drive.

If we're talking about professional bands with professional PA systems then I prefer the sound from live to the sound from my hi-fi systems - when it comes to quality. When it comes to quantity most bands play too loud for my tastes. If we're talking about pub bands through pub type PA systems then the sound of the bass guitars can be woolly and bloated. Most of the live bands I go to are professional.

If you like lean bass then that's fair enough. We all have different tastes. There are people like myself and the OP who prefer more neutral bass. Not too much and not too little when it comes to quantity in relation to the midrange and treble.