radiorog
Well-known member
paulkebab said:the whole room red would make it look 'warm' which possibly might make it sound 'warm' too? Just a thought as a cheaper option than moving house
Surely this would have the reverse edfwct due to expectation bias? You would expect it to sound warmer, and therefore it would sound colder?
Infiniteloop
Well-known member
radiorog said:paulkebab said:the whole room red would make it look 'warm' which possibly might make it sound 'warm' too? Just a thought as a cheaper option than moving house
Surely this would have the reverse edfwct due to expectation bias? You would expect it to sound warmer, and therefore it would sound colder?
But you could also paint the room dark blue, expect the sound to be cold and dark and then be pleasantly surprised when you find it isn't (this could get complicated if the room is warm though....).
takes me back. I was a proper rebel and didn't have any of the stuff in your post but I remember it well. Looking back they were strange times indeed, and it was difficult to figure out WTH was going on. For my first proper system I went this way...
Technics SL-6 full auto linear track TT, Aiwa 50WPC amp which had pre-out and eventually hooked up to a 12 channel GE (sold when I upgraded the speakers) Nakamichi cassette, Grundig reel-to-reel, Jamo Pro 200 speakers, upgraded to Wharfedale E80's.
The frowns I got were no match for the slack jaws when they heard it
Technics SL-6 full auto linear track TT, Aiwa 50WPC amp which had pre-out and eventually hooked up to a 12 channel GE (sold when I upgraded the speakers) Nakamichi cassette, Grundig reel-to-reel, Jamo Pro 200 speakers, upgraded to Wharfedale E80's.
The frowns I got were no match for the slack jaws when they heard it
chebby said:
The scam industry vs true British engineering from BBC, KEF, Sugden, B&W, IMF, Meridian, Celestion, Rogers etc.
I was heavily involved in the Linn/Naim 'thing' in the late 70s and 80s. The dealer with whom I was associated was one of those at the forefront of this 'movement'.
I recognise some of the points made by Chebby and Cno, but not others. The most important part of our (and other dealers) success was the style of retailing.
Apart from a relatively small number of (intensely boring) enthusiasts, the bulk of our clientel did not read the magazines and in many cases had never heard of Linn or Naim.
What actually worked in this period was that the equipment was sold by demonstration, I can not stress how important this was. A proper dem showing hierarchy and system building, putting together a setup that worked to the satisfaction of the client and was within budget.
We were always perfectly happy to demonstrate our solutions against any others, in fact we encouraged people to bring in kit to try, I can not remember any occasions that we were embarrassed by this, though some product turned out to be very decent and, believe it or not, on several occasions we were impressed enough to become dealers for the product in question.
Furthermore, and just as importantly, the system would be delivered and properly set up in the clients home, occasionally problems would occur and they would be sorted, at minimum cost and inconvenience to the client.
This style of retailing was important, when dealers stopped demonstrating and selling in this way and started just selling by brand (in the late 80s) the Linn/naim cult really started to get out of hand.
I recognise some of the points made by Chebby and Cno, but not others. The most important part of our (and other dealers) success was the style of retailing.
Apart from a relatively small number of (intensely boring) enthusiasts, the bulk of our clientel did not read the magazines and in many cases had never heard of Linn or Naim.
What actually worked in this period was that the equipment was sold by demonstration, I can not stress how important this was. A proper dem showing hierarchy and system building, putting together a setup that worked to the satisfaction of the client and was within budget.
We were always perfectly happy to demonstrate our solutions against any others, in fact we encouraged people to bring in kit to try, I can not remember any occasions that we were embarrassed by this, though some product turned out to be very decent and, believe it or not, on several occasions we were impressed enough to become dealers for the product in question.
Furthermore, and just as importantly, the system would be delivered and properly set up in the clients home, occasionally problems would occur and they would be sorted, at minimum cost and inconvenience to the client.
This style of retailing was important, when dealers stopped demonstrating and selling in this way and started just selling by brand (in the late 80s) the Linn/naim cult really started to get out of hand.
Those that take some to party and halucinate weird stuff for fun, and those that take them religiously because they 'open a door to things we cannot see in reality but actually exist'.
davedotco said:
Is it true that self-transforming machine elves built Linn and Naim gear, or was it backyard shack quality clones from other manufacturers sold at exuberant prices with the help of some magazine reviewers? How do we know what is reality?
Vladimir said:
I am not for one moment suggesting that there was not a huge amount of bullsh!t emanating from the Linn/Naim axis but there were other factors too.
At the begining of the 80's, hi-fi in the UK was almost uniformly awful. Despite the revisionism on here and the very ocassional decent product, the mainstream, mostly japanese product that was generally available was mediocre. It was also, like now, sold mainly on price and cash was king, the average, non expert music lover was being very badly served.
The advent of specialist product, mostly but not exclusively british sold by mainly independent retailers majoring on customer service (excellent demonstrations, home installation etc) was an absolute godsend to most hi-fi buyers.
Were these dealers offering the only viable systems? No, of course not, but they had a range of equipment built around some core products that went well together, gave predictable results and actually sounded far better than any mass market alternative. That is not me saying that, that was our customers at the time.
Neither was it just British product, for some years our favourite entry level system contained not one single piece of british equipment, the great Dual/Nagaoka/Nad/AR setup sent many an enthusiastic but impoverished music enthusiast home very happy indeed.
This is absolutely true. Decent demos and my dealer would drive 90 miles to set up the system in my room...all for the princely sum of a cup of tea and a pot of home-made jam.davedotco said:
This is a different point to the ones I was making though...
Vladimir said:
There are those that take species of mushrooms that grow on rotting timber and then there are those that eat the species that grows out of cow patties.
I've learned from other sources through the years before I joined WHF forum and read about your experiences Dave that the success of L&N wasn't the BS or the magazines but the dealership network, customer focus and proper product demonstration they brought to UK hi-fi. They could have sold dog poo in paper bags and it would have sold as diamonds simply because of this. When Ivor asked people to remove their wrist watches before auditioning so it doesn't affect sound quality, it actually means stop being distracted by the watch (or in today's terms smartphone) and focus on the product I'm selling you. L&N innovated in sales, not engineering. Biggest one being the system matching and upgrading concept IMO. This is what eventually spawned the cult and more hi-fi BS. They sold to everyone but always relied on the core of L&N cult members that kept stacking boxes.
I often feel like it's pyramid selling, but it's not. It's much smarter and evil than that. It feels more like what De Beers did for diamonds. No one bought diamond rings or any diamond jewelry before De Beers launched a strong marketing campaign and changed the ritual of marriage worldwide. They had boatloads of diamonds but sold few at insanely high prices simply because they have a hold on the market. They created the product, the market, the need, everything. It's absolutely useless, pointless marketing induced ritual that people swear by and think it's how it was done even in King Arthur's time.
L&N changed hi-fi culture worldwide and IMO not for the better. More harm than good, but many would disagree I'm sure.
I often feel like it's pyramid selling, but it's not. It's much smarter and evil than that. It feels more like what De Beers did for diamonds. No one bought diamond rings or any diamond jewelry before De Beers launched a strong marketing campaign and changed the ritual of marriage worldwide. They had boatloads of diamonds but sold few at insanely high prices simply because they have a hold on the market. They created the product, the market, the need, everything. It's absolutely useless, pointless marketing induced ritual that people swear by and think it's how it was done even in King Arthur's time.
L&N changed hi-fi culture worldwide and IMO not for the better. More harm than good, but many would disagree I'm sure.
Vladimir said:
Once again you hit on some decent points but the 'cult' you refer to was much less of an issue at the time, much more has been made of it after the event.
For many, perhaps most customers, the 'cult' barely existed, they new little about the companies whose product they were buying, they were buying a 'solution', a system that worked in their room, was setup by and maintained by the dealer. Sure there were some devotees, and they often made rather a lot of noise, but it really did pass a lot of buyers by.
You also have to remember the state of hi-fi in the late 70s when this style of retailing started to establish itself. This was the era of the cash discount and mass market japanese product. Most of this was just plain awfull, the better, genuinely excellent product made by the likes of Luxman, Pioneer, Accuphase etc rarely if ever made it to the uk, all we got was the dross.
It was very easy indeed to demonstrate that the beautifully built Pioneer, Technics or Marantz models could be easily outperformed by say, the early Creek amplifiers, that looked like they had been built in a shed. It was this obvious (to all) superiority that set the tempo for the early independent retailers, backed up by the standards of service demanded by the premium suppliers, the bullsh!t mostly came later.
davedotco said:
The build quality in Linn and Naim has certainly improved through the years.
Good to have someone to straighten up the facts on this topic since it's rarely discussed and mostly hearsay. Good input from Chebby as well.
manicm
Well-known member
Methinks Chebby doth protest a bit over the top. In space restricted UK residences, for example, yes tone controls may certainly be helpful. But there are cases where they will not fix anything. I've mentioned this a few times before, but years ago I purchased a new NAD cdp which introduced massive sibilance in m system. My hand was then forced into reducing the treble, which alleviated the problem only slightly but also dulled the music inevitably. There are cases when components ARE the problem. I experienced the same thing when doing a demo of speakers a few years ago, and a cheap CA cdp did the proceedings in, using my own source improved things no end.
I'm certainly not against tone controls at all, but if one is continually adjusting then I'd hazard something's amiss elsewhere. As for bad recordings, well I take them warts and all ,my personal preference.
I'm certainly not against tone controls at all, but if one is continually adjusting then I'd hazard something's amiss elsewhere. As for bad recordings, well I take them warts and all ,my personal preference.
If you want to use tone controls, use them, it's up to you.
Historically I think that straight line amplifiers were introduced to distance themselves from mainstream product, which often had quite complex setups with switchable frequencies etc. Because many considered the 'new' simple amplifiers to sound better than the more complex models it became an article of faith that tone controls were a bad thing.
Personally I just found them pretty useless, far too broad in effect to address specific issues the only use I thought them good for was darkening or lightening a system with a gentle upslope or downslope, something that the Quad Tilt control did very well.
The crazy thing is that the use of dsp makes really sophisticated eq childsplay, but the issue appears to be in functionality, Audessey for example, found in virtually all A/V receivers is a very powerful tool but rarely implemented in stereo amplifiers, Multi-eq could be used to eq the in room response of any speaker setup but rarely is. why is that.
There is progress though, the Antimode low frequency equaliser is a fantastic device but is expensive as an add-on in existing systems and does nothing at higher frequencies, personally I think the answer could be something like this....
Genelec 8330APM compact monitors (shown with the smaller 8320), a high performance fully active system in it's own right comes with a GLM2 hardware interface, professional level software and a calibrated microphone.
Full active eq for both speaker and room, and to professional standards. You can use the Auto setting to give you a nominally 'flat' response using a mixture of shelving options and multiple parametric notch filters to adjust to the room. It is surprisingly straightforward.
You can even do the Auto calibration and manually adjust to taste. Nothing in hi-fi comes close.
The cost of such a setup? Currently around £1300. Bigger models in the SAM range are available, but you buy speakers and the GLM2 management system separately, the 6.5inch 8240 system can be hade for around £2000 all in.
Historically I think that straight line amplifiers were introduced to distance themselves from mainstream product, which often had quite complex setups with switchable frequencies etc. Because many considered the 'new' simple amplifiers to sound better than the more complex models it became an article of faith that tone controls were a bad thing.
Personally I just found them pretty useless, far too broad in effect to address specific issues the only use I thought them good for was darkening or lightening a system with a gentle upslope or downslope, something that the Quad Tilt control did very well.
The crazy thing is that the use of dsp makes really sophisticated eq childsplay, but the issue appears to be in functionality, Audessey for example, found in virtually all A/V receivers is a very powerful tool but rarely implemented in stereo amplifiers, Multi-eq could be used to eq the in room response of any speaker setup but rarely is. why is that.
There is progress though, the Antimode low frequency equaliser is a fantastic device but is expensive as an add-on in existing systems and does nothing at higher frequencies, personally I think the answer could be something like this....
Genelec 8330APM compact monitors (shown with the smaller 8320), a high performance fully active system in it's own right comes with a GLM2 hardware interface, professional level software and a calibrated microphone.
Full active eq for both speaker and room, and to professional standards. You can use the Auto setting to give you a nominally 'flat' response using a mixture of shelving options and multiple parametric notch filters to adjust to the room. It is surprisingly straightforward.
You can even do the Auto calibration and manually adjust to taste. Nothing in hi-fi comes close.
The cost of such a setup? Currently around £1300. Bigger models in the SAM range are available, but you buy speakers and the GLM2 management system separately, the 6.5inch 8240 system can be hade for around £2000 all in.
The smaller 8320 is perhaps more suited to the desktop but the 8330 is potent enough for most hi-fi users. Using the eq the bass response sounds far more extended than the figures would suggest.
If it is not enough for you, the 7350 subwoofer is fully integrated with the SAM system and can extend bass and increase output, a very potent 2.1 fully active system for a shade over £2k.
If it is not enough for you, the 7350 subwoofer is fully integrated with the SAM system and can extend bass and increase output, a very potent 2.1 fully active system for a shade over £2k.
Some are forgetting that music is for pleasure. It's not a competition or a phallic extention.
Sometimes, you have a good room, a good chain, but the recording has flaws. You have no other record of that, and you can use sound controls to make it souding better (or less critical). Why not using it ?
P.S. The advice of every person coming with the point : "you need to change the cables to change your sound" can be ignored to full extend. It's a red handed caught of a lack of competences and knowledge.
Sometimes, you have a good room, a good chain, but the recording has flaws. You have no other record of that, and you can use sound controls to make it souding better (or less critical). Why not using it ?
P.S. The advice of every person coming with the point : "you need to change the cables to change your sound" can be ignored to full extend. It's a red handed caught of a lack of competences and knowledge.
Freddy58
Well-known member
Freddy58 said:
You need to do penance for such apalling behaviour....*sorry2*
Oh, and change your sig to 'Beatbox'.
this thread, for many different reasons. The insight into the 80's state of hi-fi was an eye opener and answered a lot of my questions and misgivings about that era. I was under the impression that tone controls were still frowned upon as of that era, but 'that' review confirmed that they certainly are not - by most people anyway; everyone to their own etc and if it sounds 'right' so be it, tone controls or not.
Love the funny bits too
Love the funny bits too
Freddy58
Well-known member
davedotco said:
I know Dave, I know. I've been doing it for quite some time now. I do it during the daytime when no-one is around, or late at night. I know other people that do it too. The trouble is, once you start, you can't stop. I believe it's a huge problem affecting many more than people realise. What's needed is some understanding and a sympathetic ear, but it's one of those things that will never go away. Anyway, I feel much better now, now that I've told someone about it.
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