Are tone controls now justified?

[paulkebab]

Reading the review on the £44000 Dan D'Agostino Momentum amp I read this .. 'We play around with the tone controls and find them to be subtle and useful. They don't spoil the sound quality in any noticeable way and so would be useful in certain situations, particularly with skewed recordings.'

In context I realise that some manufacturers implement tone controls poorly, but even so I must admit I had a chuckle.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Devialets have tone controls but it's all done in the digital domain, so SQ doesn't suffer but can be tailored according to room requirements, recording emphases and personal preference.

I don't need to use them often, but I'm glad I have the option.

So I guess the answer is Yes!

 

[chebby]

Tone controls? Disgraceful!

You put up with what you've got like a man and if you don't like it then change the speaker cable, or the speakers, or the source, or the interconnects, or even change the room. Change the whole ####ing house if necessary but NEVER USE TONE CONTROLS.

If you have music that needs a little 'seasoning' to sound better then THROW IT AWAY! What on earth are you doing with recordings that are less than ####ing perfect anyway? (What do you mean "you like them"?)

Got it?

Good.

 

[Al ears]

Tone controls? Disgraceful!

You put up with what you've got like a man and if you don't like it then change the speaker cable, or the speakers, or the source, or the interconnects, or even change the room. Change the whole ####ing house if necessary but NEVER USE TONE CONTROLS.

If you have music that needs a little 'seasoning' to sound better then THROW IT AWAY! What on earth are you doing with recordings that are less than ####ing perfect anyway? (What do you mean "you like them"?)

Got it?

Good.

 

[Native_bon]

Exactly. People are sold an idea & everyone takes it as gospel. NO RULES. Play the way you like to listen.

 

[paulkebab]

the whole room red would make it look 'warm' which possibly might make it sound 'warm' too? Just a thought as a cheaper option than moving house

 

[Vladimir]

Not because I preach audio purism. They simply are no where near as effective as equalizers and DSP. They were made to solve the problem when there was no RIAA standard for manufacturing and playing records. Each maker had their own equalization so you had to have tone controls to adjust if a record has more bass or highs than another record. Using tone controls affects a wide frequency range and you can't tweak specific frequencies as you could with DSP. For the civilian music listener, rough tone controls are better than none, but for audiophiles and home theater geeks it's just not good enough.

 

[Jota180]

As someone who likes his music random, tone controls would be a hassle. I'd be adjusting the treble and bass every single song and as that's more effort than it's worth I just let the music be.

Now, if you had a smart amp that saved a tone control setting for a particular track we'd be onto something.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I do not bother with the tone controls direct mode only with me

 

[Freddy58]

Tone controls? Disgraceful!

You put up with what you've got like a man and if you don't like it then change the speaker cable, or the speakers, or the source, or the interconnects, or even change the room. Change the whole ####ing house if necessary but NEVER USE TONE CONTROLS.

If you have music that needs a little 'seasoning' to sound better then THROW IT AWAY! What on earth are you doing with recordings that are less than ####ing perfect anyway? (What do you mean "you like them"?)

Got it?

Good.

*smile*

 

[Macspur]

After owning the Accuphase, wouldn't have an amp without them... don't have to adjust them that often either.

Mac

www.macsmusic.blogbubble.net

 

[plastic penguin]

The Leema doesn't have tone controls. But given a choice with any amp and I'd prefer to have them. Don't BELIEVE the b######s written in the hi-fi mags that tone controls has a (small) detrimental effect on the sound. It's so small you can't tell the difference, unless you have the hearing of a demented Jack Russell.

Also: NUTS to the so-called purists, or as we say in Surrey: Musically deranged..

 

[Paulq]

It' s dead easy. - if you like tone controls use them, if you don't like tone controls don't use them.

Forget the rubbish spouted by experts, there's no right and wrong.

Your money. Your ears. Your choice.

 

[Al ears]

Not because I preach audio purism. They simply are no where near as effective as equalizers and DSP. They were made to solve the problem when there was no RIAA standard for manufacturing and playing records. Each maker had their own equalization so you had to have tone controls to adjust if a record has more bass or highs than another record. Using tone controls affects a wide frequency range and you can't tweak specific frequencies as you could with DSP. For the civilian music listener, rough tone controls are better than none, but for audiophiles and home theater geeks it's just not good enough.

I've come across a few phono preamp that have RIAA and other equalization and, to me, this is a positive idea.

 

[ID.]

I've never found them effective. They either were poorly implemented and added noise or the frequency band they worked on wasn't quite right for me room.

That said, the adjustments on my active speakers to compensate for room and placement seem to work quite well. Better on my Adams than the little Genelecs.

 

[gasolin]

If you use them (or like to) you migh have a wrong sonic balance, you need something to adjust the sound if you have a subwoofer, but that is just the volume and crossover so it matches the speaker you have, since not all use the same subwoofer with the same front speakers, i changed my speaker to the ones i have now to get a better sonic balance, i enjoy the difference in sound music have, like edm (kraftwerk) sounds different then rock music, ac/dc has to be loud, classic music can have alot of dynamic, as long as the sound generally is balanced (my system has a neutral top and a fullbodied bass) i don't need to adjust bas/treble, i also use source direct so i can't use my eq/tonecontrols

Don't try to make all music sound like edm, techno,kraftwek it might not sound good with alot of bass where edm,kraftwerk might sound bad if theres not enough bass

 

[MajorFubar]

I don't have them, but i don't see why there is/was such a thriving hate-campaign for them. Some say they're not HiFi because you're tailoring the sound so what you're hearing isn't maintaining 'high fidelity' to the source. But what the hell is high fidelity anyway? Unless you're listening on the same equipment and in the same room as the engineer, you're never destined to hear what he heard, so what exactly is your target other than something that sounds pleasing and acceptably realistic to your particular ears?

My problem with them is they always seemed to be centrered around the wrong frequencies, particularly the bass, which commonly was centred around 100Hz. That's is 40Hz too high IMO and does nothing but generate boom. But I have no experience of modern amps with digital tone controls with variable centre-frequencies and Qs, so I can't offer praise nor criticism.

All I will add though, similar to what I said in the recent thread about EQ's, if you're expecting them to fix a weakness with your particular set-up, eg your speakers are bass lightweights so let's whack-up the bass control to +10, "there I fixed it", well it probably won't work and you're likely always going to be disappointed.

 

[plastic penguin]

The best example of tone controls versus none is when I had the Arcam A65+. I borrowed a A80 from a dealer because it was meant to be superior to the A65, according to the dealer, yet truth was very different. The A80, despite retailing at the time £200 more than the A65+, sounded £200 less than the A65. This was with the same source and speakers. The same with the newer A70. Both compared to little 40 watt amp were insipid.

 

[paulkebab]

and if they're good enough for Dan they're good enough for me . I use mine occasionally, usually to take bass off or brighten up the top a little but they seem to work very well on the Vincent. By contrast the Yamaha's aren't bad but they're not great, the variable loudness works better.

 

[ID.]

I don't have them, but i don't see why there is/was such a thriving hate-campaign for them. Some say they're not HiFi because you're tailoring the sound so what you're hearing isn't maintaining 'high fidelity' to the source. But what the hell is high fidelity anyway? Unless you're listening on the same equipment and in the same room as the engineer, you're never destined to hear what he heard, so what exactly is your target other than something that sounds pleasing and acceptably realistic to your particular ears?

My problem with them is they always seemed to be centrered around the wrong frequencies, particularly the bass, which commonly was centred around 100Hz. That's is 40Hz too high IMO and does nothing but generate boom. But I have no experience of modern amps with digital tone controls with variable centre-frequencies and Qs, so I can't offer praise nor criticism.

All I will add though, similar to what I said in the recent thread about EQ's, if you're expecting them to fix a weakness with your particular set-up, eg your speakers are bass lightweights so let's whack-up the bass control to +10, "there I fixed it", well it probably won't work and you're likely always going to be disappointed.

exactly. I needed the bass to add/remove bass around the 60Hz mark. The treble also seemed a bit too low to either add sparkle or remove brightness. When looking at 2nd hand amps recently I did come across a beefy old Sansui with tone controls at the 60Hz mark, but most were around 90-100Hz.

 

[DIB]

When I last had an amp with tone controls I never bothered with them mainly because I'm a lazy git and I couldn't be bothered getting up out of my comfy chair.

.

 

[matthewpiano]

The question I have is why should they have to be justified?

Use hi-fi as you wish to enhance your enjoyment of the music. If that means you prefer to adjust the treble and/or bass on a certain recording, you aren't answerable to anyone.

 

[chebby]

The question I have is why should they have to be justified?

Because of almost 40 years of conditioning that started with Linn and Naim and a bunch of young hi-fi reviewers whose dogma dominated the world of small - medium British hi-fi companies during the 1980s, 1990s and beyond. During the peak of this Linn/Naim influence in the 1980s, it extended even to dealers (independents and whole chains) who would not stock gear that competed directly with Linn and Naim. (Otherwise they might lose that lucrative 'Official' Linn/Naim dealer license to print money.)

Rega did well for many years by becoming 'Linn Junior' and only making budget turntables that didn't compete on Linn or Naim's 'turf' (no Rega electronics or speakers back then). Creek and Heybrook fell in line and did well too

About two thirds of the hi-fi press were 'on-message' back then and 'Popular Hi-Fi' was rabidly pro Linn and Naim. (Their so-called 'Buying Guide' was so obvious it was comical with Linn and Naim products topping every applicable category.)

The truest acolytes of 'The Faith' started a magazine called 'The Flat Response' that was only available from Linn/Naim dealers. It eventually morphed into 'Hifi Review' with a certain Ian Rankin as deputy, then acting editor! (He was very enlightening about the relationships between manufacturers and reviewers and their 'freebies' during a TV interview a few years ago*.)

*Obviously he was the only hi-fi magazine editor who ever took advantage of such 'largesse' and it was probably fictional anyway ;-)

 

[MeanandGreen]

S

Tone controls? Disgraceful!

You put up with what you've got like a man and if you don't like it then change the speaker cable, or the speakers, or the source, or the interconnects, or even change the room. Change the whole ####ing house if necessary but NEVER USE TONE CONTROLS.

If you have music that needs a little 'seasoning' to sound better then THROW IT AWAY! What on earth are you doing with recordings that are less than ####ing perfect anyway? (What do you mean "you like them"?)

Got it?

Good.

Ha ha, love it!

Personally I've never owned an amp without tone controls and I never will buy an amp without them. Even if I do only knock the bass down to 11 o'clock 5% of the time I like being able to do that. The fact I can hit the bypass button on my remote control makes it all the better!

 

[CnoEvil]

I think Chebby's assessment is pretty much spot on.

As a budding Audiophile starting out, your upgrade path was pretty much laid out for you by the Hifi Mags. Back then, there were no forums or social media, so one's only source of info, were dedicated magazines who spread the word. The dealers mostly followed suit and stocked the recommended products.

The mainstay of the system was the TT. Your upgrade path usually followed a well trodden path ie. Sansui 222 mk2/Trio Kd 1033B -> Rega Planar 2 or 3 -> Linn Sondek LP12.

The more rebellious, less orthodox Audiophile rejected this and often went off piste: eg. Dual CS 505 -> Dunlop Systemdek -> Pink Triangle / Townshend Rock / Michell Gyrodec / The Source

The amp hierarchy was similar. It was OK to get a Japanese affair at a very budget level, but the standard recommendation was the Nad 3020 or the more expensive Creek 4040.

The next step on the ladder was either the Naim Nait or A&R A60, though the more adventurous would have looked at the likes of the Onix OA21 / Inca Tech Claymore / Myst tma3.

The amps that most aspired to, were those from Naim...by getting on the first Pre/Power rung of the ladder with the 42/110. Most didn't look beyond this, but those who did would have looked at Exposure V11/V111 / Inca Design ID35 / Audio Research / Conrad Johnson / Quad / Krell; or some of the Japanese exotica from Marantz, Pioneer, Sansui, Accuphase and Luxman.

The Hifi press at the time, dismissed the Japanese amps as "all bling" and poor sound quality...and that their TTs should be avoided on the grounds that they were direct drive.

There is no doubt that these recommended products sounded very well, but because of the "closed shop" mentality of the industry, most of us never considered the alternatives. This is why I constantly encourage the less well known brands, which have a lot to offer.