Hi all, Just wondering if hifi enthusiasts are set in there ways and don t like changes to the industries(such as when cd cme out,valves vs solid state...).The reason m saying that is that it seems that a few manufacturers are going down the class d amp road, the likes of primare, wyred4 sound, bel canto.. and it does not seem to me that there are many reviews about them.Is it because people will straight away deny the pros of class d amp as fairly new or are they really plague by problems that the industry does not want us to know???is it too early for them to come out???How do they compare to the other amps??? I was told that if you like the cyrus sound you will generally love bel canto gear?Can that be true???Consequently i was also told that the cyrus range of dac are a fair way behind bel canto.Shame, m pretty happy with my pre xpd and recently audition the dac xp and definately an improvment so keen to purchase it.But just out of sfety ll try the bel canto range.May even try their amps to see how they fair...
are hifi enthusiast set in the old ways???
- Thread starter stpierre76
- Start date
chebby
Well-known member
stpierre76:Hi all, Just wondering if hifi enthusiasts are set in there ways and don t like changes to the industries(such as when cd cme out,valves vs solid state...)
Out of date by about 28 and 50 years respectively. Entire generations have been born and grown up since those controversies were current news. (Valve vs solid state protagonists could be great-grandparents by now.)
stpierre76:The reason m saying that is that it seems that a few manufacturers are going down the class d amp road, the likes of primare, wyred4 sound, bel canto.. and it does not seem to me that there are many reviews about them.Is it because people will straight away deny the pros of class d amp as fairly new or are they really plague by problems that the industry does not want us to know???is it too early for them to come out???How do they compare to the other amps??? I was told that if you like the cyrus sound you will generally love bel canto gear?Can that be true???Consequently i was also told that the cyrus range of dac are a fair way behind bel canto.Shame, m pretty happy with my pre xpd and recently audition the dac xp and definately an improvment so keen to purchase it.But just out of sfety ll try the bel canto range.May even try their amps to see how they fair...
Sorry. I have no idea what you are saying.
Can you clarify a bit please?
Out of date by about 28 and 50 years respectively. Entire generations have been born and grown up since those controversies were current news. (Valve vs solid state protagonists could be great-grandparents by now.)
stpierre76:The reason m saying that is that it seems that a few manufacturers are going down the class d amp road, the likes of primare, wyred4 sound, bel canto.. and it does not seem to me that there are many reviews about them.Is it because people will straight away deny the pros of class d amp as fairly new or are they really plague by problems that the industry does not want us to know???is it too early for them to come out???How do they compare to the other amps??? I was told that if you like the cyrus sound you will generally love bel canto gear?Can that be true???Consequently i was also told that the cyrus range of dac are a fair way behind bel canto.Shame, m pretty happy with my pre xpd and recently audition the dac xp and definately an improvment so keen to purchase it.But just out of sfety ll try the bel canto range.May even try their amps to see how they fair...
Sorry. I have no idea what you are saying.
Can you clarify a bit please?
It seems to me that a lot of people are not taking class d amp seriously..I went to a few shops and talked about them, and most dealers tend to giggle at the mention of class d....hence me saying that hifi enthusiast may not accept new technology really easily.just a thought that s all.m not saying they are the way to go, just like to know what they are, their pros and cons...I myself not keen on getting one until it s proven itself, but not saying that i will never own one..makes sense????I guess, i just love new technology and just amazed by way things go..Hope i did not upset anybody, just asking questions regarding new technology.
The_Lhc
Well-known member
I know I'll probably get pilloried for this because I'm heartless and evil but if you put a space after the punctuation at the end of each sentence it will make you posts much easier to read, rather than a single solid block of words.
For example:
It seems to me that a lot of people are not taking class d amp seriously.. I went to a few shops and talked about them, and most dealers tend to giggle at the mention of class d.... hence me saying that hifi enthusiast may not accept new technology really easily. just a thought that s all. m not saying they are the way to go, just like to know what they are, their pros and cons... I myself not keen on getting one until it s proven itself, but not saying that i will never own one.. makes sense???? I guess, i just love new technology and just amazed by way things go.. Hope i did not upset anybody, just asking questions regarding new technology.
It's a slight improvement, perhaps ease off on the ellipses a touch?
For example:
It seems to me that a lot of people are not taking class d amp seriously.. I went to a few shops and talked about them, and most dealers tend to giggle at the mention of class d.... hence me saying that hifi enthusiast may not accept new technology really easily. just a thought that s all. m not saying they are the way to go, just like to know what they are, their pros and cons... I myself not keen on getting one until it s proven itself, but not saying that i will never own one.. makes sense???? I guess, i just love new technology and just amazed by way things go.. Hope i did not upset anybody, just asking questions regarding new technology.
It's a slight improvement, perhaps ease off on the ellipses a touch?
chebby
Well-known member
the_lhc:I know I'll probably get pilloried for this because I'm heartless and evil but if you put a space after the punctuation at the end of each sentence it will make you posts much easier to read, rather than a single solid block of words.
I agree.
I am still trying to unpick what stpierre76 has written.
I think he is saying that there is sometimes resistance to new ideas in hifi from users and dealers.
Heck, some dealers, even in the 21st century, still can't handle the idea of a woman customer in their shop without suffering some kind of breakdown!
I agree.
I am still trying to unpick what stpierre76 has written.
I think he is saying that there is sometimes resistance to new ideas in hifi from users and dealers.
Heck, some dealers, even in the 21st century, still can't handle the idea of a woman customer in their shop without suffering some kind of breakdown!
manicm
Well-known member
A few are taking Class D amps seriously. And ironically, as of this moment, the best 'Class D' or full digital amp is probably NAD's 5000 oddquid M2 integrated. It's the dog's proverbial but because of its revealing nature the Matthews and JDs of this world are going to shy away
SteveR750
Well-known member
Surely a retailer is mostly going to stock only those things that people want to buy. How many people apart from a handful of audiophiles even know that a class D amp exists, or more pertinently what the advantage is over 'conventional' ones in order for them to want one.
To answer the original question - no I don't think hifi enthusiasts are stuck in the old ways. If they were, old names like Naim, Linn, Meridian, MF, Krell, Wadia, and Esoteric wouldn't be offering all-in-one music streamers/servers/ipod players with all the attendant digital bells and whistles.
jaxwired
Well-known member
I don't think we are giving stpierre a fair shake here. I think there is a grain of truth to the idea that the hifi community resists major changes in hifi delivery. There has been push back against CDs since their introduction. And while it's true many companies are now selling music streamers and servers, it took about 10 years for this stuff to become truly mainstream and many audiophiles are still resisting.
It's not restricted to the hifi community. Most people resist big changes. People like what they are used to even if it's inferior. But in the case of hifi, it's not always clear that the new thing is superior, this makes it twice as hard to get acceptance. Class D amps have been around for a long time and in the beginning, almost universally considered very inferior to Class A/B amps. During the last decade many improvements have been made and now the best ones are definately competitive with Class A/B amps, but they have to overcome the stigma of the early years where their quality was definately inferior.
We will see more and more class D amps from major manufacturers. They make sense. Super effecient, run cool. I believe PMC is using them now for their active monitors, that should say something. The newest offerings are very good, there's no question about it.
It's not restricted to the hifi community. Most people resist big changes. People like what they are used to even if it's inferior. But in the case of hifi, it's not always clear that the new thing is superior, this makes it twice as hard to get acceptance. Class D amps have been around for a long time and in the beginning, almost universally considered very inferior to Class A/B amps. During the last decade many improvements have been made and now the best ones are definately competitive with Class A/B amps, but they have to overcome the stigma of the early years where their quality was definately inferior.
We will see more and more class D amps from major manufacturers. They make sense. Super effecient, run cool. I believe PMC is using them now for their active monitors, that should say something. The newest offerings are very good, there's no question about it.
chebby
Well-known member
jaxwired:We will see more and more Class D amps from major manufacturers. They make sense. Super effecient, run cool. I believe PMC is using them now for their active monitors, that should say something. The newest offerings are very good, there's no question about it. A lot of active speakers use class D. I understand that some of the new Rotels use it, too. And, of course, B&O have been using Class D for a while.
SteveR750
Well-known member
jaxwired:
We will see more and more class D amps from major manufacturers. They make sense. Super effecient, run cool. I believe PMC is using them now for their active monitors, that should say something. The newest offerings are very good, there's no question about it.
Hopefully not from James Marshall though.
We will see more and more class D amps from major manufacturers. They make sense. Super effecient, run cool. I believe PMC is using them now for their active monitors, that should say something. The newest offerings are very good, there's no question about it.
Hopefully not from James Marshall though.
manicm
Well-known member
Grottyash:
jaxwired:We will see more and more Class D amps from major manufacturers. They make sense. Super effecient, run cool. I believe PMC is using them now for their active monitors, that should say something. The newest offerings are very good, there's no question about it. A lot of active speakers use class D. I understand that some of the new Rotels use it, too. And, of course, B&O have been using Class D for a while.
None come close in terms of technology and specs to NAD's M2 though. In fact it's downright astonishing what they've done, having beat Linn et al in digital amplification technology.
jaxwired:We will see more and more Class D amps from major manufacturers. They make sense. Super effecient, run cool. I believe PMC is using them now for their active monitors, that should say something. The newest offerings are very good, there's no question about it. A lot of active speakers use class D. I understand that some of the new Rotels use it, too. And, of course, B&O have been using Class D for a while.
None come close in terms of technology and specs to NAD's M2 though. In fact it's downright astonishing what they've done, having beat Linn et al in digital amplification technology.
idc
Well-known member
I think that we are right to be sceptical of 'improvements' in hifi.
For example,Linn were very pro vinyl and now are all digital. That will have partly come about because Ivor Tiefenbrun failed a blind test between all analogue and the same setup with digital processing. So sound wise, have we really progressed? My experience with buying vintage headphones is no. Then there are the supposed improvements of cables......
For example,Linn were very pro vinyl and now are all digital. That will have partly come about because Ivor Tiefenbrun failed a blind test between all analogue and the same setup with digital processing. So sound wise, have we really progressed? My experience with buying vintage headphones is no. Then there are the supposed improvements of cables......
Id say a there's alot of truth that they are stuck in their ways.
They catch up eventually though. When I first joined the forum I used to see a lot of sceptcism about computer based setups. Now it seem to be pretty widely accepted and even encouraged.
Not by all mind you. I read a post the other day where the guy said ' since when was an ipod hifi?'
The reply by someone was 'when it was hooked to a bloody good dac'. Or something like that.
That isn't meant as a dig but just pointing out that it takes a long time for something to be universally believed.
It may take a while with cables though!
They catch up eventually though. When I first joined the forum I used to see a lot of sceptcism about computer based setups. Now it seem to be pretty widely accepted and even encouraged.
Not by all mind you. I read a post the other day where the guy said ' since when was an ipod hifi?'
The reply by someone was 'when it was hooked to a bloody good dac'. Or something like that.
That isn't meant as a dig but just pointing out that it takes a long time for something to be universally believed.
It may take a while with cables though!
chebby
Well-known member
When looking setup I checked out all kinds of stuff, and enjoyed it for what it was without get hung up on any particular technology.
As it turns out I ended up with class D amplification as part an amp/cdp/dac in a single unit even though I'd originally planned on separates involving class A amplification. I also do most of my listening using an iPod classic running into the dac section, but I'd be happy to try out a full streaming setup or vinyl.
As it turns out I ended up with class D amplification as part an amp/cdp/dac in a single unit even though I'd originally planned on separates involving class A amplification. I also do most of my listening using an iPod classic running into the dac section, but I'd be happy to try out a full streaming setup or vinyl.
manicm
Well-known member
chebby:
bobbyg81:I read a post the other day where the guy said ' since when was an ipod hifi?'
Yes that was funny.
The iPod by itself, if my touch 3g is to go by, is patently not a piece of hifi. By sound quality alone it is a piece of mediocrity, compared to early models anyway.
Connected digitally to a hifi is another matter, but I'm beginning to question the wisdom of this. Or the lack thereof. New model incompatibility with newer Pods/docks, control issues and headaches, lossless vs uncompressed sound quality (not only Wadia argues this) etc.
Another telling thing is that Arcam's rCube connects analogue i.e. still uses the iPod's DAC. And after posting a question to Arcam some months back, they replied back they will probably never release a digital dock for the iPod.
The rCube supposedly sounds excellent though - but that's the point - it fits into the concept of compact listening space and portability. Like, ahem, the iPod itself.
So I will also ask the question - since when is iPod hifi? Not since about 4 models back I would say.
bobbyg81:I read a post the other day where the guy said ' since when was an ipod hifi?'
Yes that was funny.
The iPod by itself, if my touch 3g is to go by, is patently not a piece of hifi. By sound quality alone it is a piece of mediocrity, compared to early models anyway.
Connected digitally to a hifi is another matter, but I'm beginning to question the wisdom of this. Or the lack thereof. New model incompatibility with newer Pods/docks, control issues and headaches, lossless vs uncompressed sound quality (not only Wadia argues this) etc.
Another telling thing is that Arcam's rCube connects analogue i.e. still uses the iPod's DAC. And after posting a question to Arcam some months back, they replied back they will probably never release a digital dock for the iPod.
The rCube supposedly sounds excellent though - but that's the point - it fits into the concept of compact listening space and portability. Like, ahem, the iPod itself.
So I will also ask the question - since when is iPod hifi? Not since about 4 models back I would say.
staggerlee:what's class d ? am i old fashioned now ?
The term Class D may refer to:
This particular thread refers to Class D Amplification, the D is sometimes referred to as Digital which is not strictly correct The Wiki Page May help - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switching_amplifier I agree that audio enthusiasts are resistant to change, but would say it is because we are Human (Yes Really) and people are generally resistant to change what they know. There are a lot of Class D Products around if you look, I have a Class D amp in my Active B&W Sub woofer which is at least 5 years old and The Jaguar Car Amplifiers are Class D, Newer Rotel Power amps I think are also Class D.
The term Class D may refer to:
- Class D, a planet classification from the fictional Star Trek universe
- Class D, a modern stellar classification
- Class-D amplifier or switching amplifier
- Class D IP addresses on a Classful network
- Class D Airspace class as defined by the ICAO
- Class D league, a classification of minor league baseball from 1902 to 1962
- Class D, a type of Driver's license in the United States
- Class D, on list of North American broadcast station classes
- Class D, also d-segment, car class of large family cars which are larger than a small family car (C-Segment) and smaller than an executive car (E-Segment)
- Class D fire extinguisher
manicm
Well-known member
pwiles1968:
staggerlee:what's class d ? am i old fashioned now ?
The term Class D may refer to:
Was not trying to be flippant I liked the Star Trek reference
This particular thread refers to Class D Amplification, the D is sometimes referred to as Digital which is not strictly correct The Wiki Page May help - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switching_amplifier
I agree that audio enthusiasts are resistant to change, but would say it is because we are Human (Yes Really) and people are generally resistant to change what they know.
There are a lot of Class D Products around if you look, I have a Class D amp in my Active B&W Sub woofer which is at least 5 years old and The Jaguar Car Amplifiers are Class D, Newer Rotel Power amps I think are also Class D.
Again, I will refer you to Nad's M2 amplifier - it's probably the most advanced integrated amplifier in the world right now.
staggerlee:what's class d ? am i old fashioned now ?
The term Class D may refer to:
- Class D, a planet classification from the fictional Star Trek universe
- Class D, a modern stellar classification
- Class-D amplifier or switching amplifier
- Class D IP addresses on a Classful network
- Class D Airspace class as defined by the ICAO
- Class D league, a classification of minor league baseball from 1902 to 1962
- Class D, a type of Driver's license in the United States
- Class D, on list of North American broadcast station classes
- Class D, also d-segment, car class of large family cars which are larger than a small family car (C-Segment) and smaller than an executive car (E-Segment)
- Class D fire extinguisher
Was not trying to be flippant I liked the Star Trek reference
This particular thread refers to Class D Amplification, the D is sometimes referred to as Digital which is not strictly correct The Wiki Page May help - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switching_amplifier
I agree that audio enthusiasts are resistant to change, but would say it is because we are Human (Yes Really) and people are generally resistant to change what they know.
There are a lot of Class D Products around if you look, I have a Class D amp in my Active B&W Sub woofer which is at least 5 years old and The Jaguar Car Amplifiers are Class D, Newer Rotel Power amps I think are also Class D.
Again, I will refer you to Nad's M2 amplifier - it's probably the most advanced integrated amplifier in the world right now.
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