ALAC streaming, all-in-one vs separates, and so much more! (Warning, long read)

[Helmut80]

Hi everyone!

let me start by saying that this forum is both extremely informative and very entertaining. I have been researching various issues discussed below for several weeks now, and time and again this forum comes up in my favourite search engine.

On various other forums I have tried to break my 'situation' down into several different threads but am yet to arrive at a comprehensive answer, so at the risk of confusing myself and everyone else, I shall now endeavor to squeeze it all into one thread.

background

I ditched my amp, cd player, tape deck and speakers with the arrival of the first iPod and never looked back. I have now spent a the better part of a decade with mp3s and Bose headphones. So be gentle with me when it comes to sound quality. As far as I understand, at my £1000 (as it currently stands) budget, we are talking consumer level rather than hi-fi anyway . But please ignore that for the time being as I am not looking for specific buying advice only in this thread.

In the space of a month, I have moved from £300 all-in one 5.1 system to £1000 floorstanders +amp (+DAC?), as I have realised that I have no interest in creating the 'cinema feel' at home, and care about my music much more than about the sound while watching tv/blu-rays.

I have now begun to re-rip my 500+ CD collection in ALAC? Why ALAC you might ask? Well, my household is entirely Mac-based, I'm a bit of an Apple fanboy and I don't see that changing anytime soon. User friendliness is very important to me, and of course to my other half. But if anyone can make a convincing argument to play lossless files in a different format and consequently not in iTunes (Sonos etc?) I am more than happy to listen!

But before we go down that road keep in mind 2 things. My current budget stands at £1k. It is somewhat flexible I would say as I am prepared to double or even triple it, if I either come across speakers that just blow me away (I will leave speakers out for now as this is getting ridiculously long as it is, and I have barely started), or an amazing all-in-one solution. But even with a 3k budget, I am doubtful that I would be bothered my Apple TV resampling etc. I think lossless of any kind will be such a huge improvement that there is no need to overdo it for the time being. So quality of files is not something that I count against ALAC/ATV2

DISCLAIMER: I HAVE NOT HAD A DEMO OF ANY OF THE AMPS OR SPEAKERS yet.

'cheap' separates

at this point in time, at the beginning of my hi-fi journey, with my £1k budget, separates seems the only option as the all-in one systems seem to start in the high three figures. So in order to stream ALACs from my Macbook Pro, I am looking at a stereo amp £300-£500 (or £200-£300 secondhand) + DAC (ranging from £140 for Beresford to £300 for rDAC) + Apple TV/Aiport Express (I have been looking for an excuse to get an ATV2 for a while, and it doesn't cost much more than AE, so that seems to be decided). +£500-700 for a pair of floorstanders.

And here is where my interest for -all-in-one (or at least 'more integrated' ) systems began. DACs are ugly. The cheapest DAC that I would actually consider having in my living room is the Musical Fidelity M1. DacMagic and rDac look like modems, and let's not even talk about the Beresfords and V-DAC). And I simply like it clean and tidy, the less boxes the better. The issue here is of course, which compromise is best?

The only way around a separate DAC at my budget seems to be the Harman Kardon 3490, at less than £300! Powerful amp, internal DAC, even a tuner I think. The alternative would be a used NAD c352 + DacMagic, although then we are already looking at £450+. I suspect I would be happy with the HK 3490.

Are there any other Amps with DAC under £500?

educate me on all-in-one system

I have done a fair bit of research on this, but it seems that there isn't an all-in-one system that allows me to stream ALAC, or am I mistaken? As with everything hi-fi, I assume that when you increase quality you have to keep everything separate, i.e. pre-amp, power-amp + pricey DAC. I am not really interested in that though because I like to have as little kit as possible (without compromising on sound too much of course) and with mortgage, cars, motorbikes and 2 girls in school for the next coupe of decades, I very much doubt that I will spend that kind of many anytime soon, if ever.

However, keeping in mind my 3k max if the perfect solution is out there, that leaves Naim Uniti, unitiQute, Arcam Solo Neo, Esoteric A-i10, Olive 03/04HD (are they comparable to naim NDX/HDX?), and various Linn DS, and probably others that I am not aware of.

As I understand it the Esoteric is 'just amp+ DAC (like the Harman Kardon HK990. Different price range, I know, but I did see a nearly new Esoteric for £1350). I am only mentioning the Esoteric because it is just so beautiful Are there other Amps with DAC in the £1k-1.5k range? And will they always be worse than spending the money on 2 separates?

EDIT: do Cyrus 6 and 8XPd fit into this category? I know, I know, it's all about the sound, but the Cyrus display looks so dated!

I realise the Arcam Solo Neo also has a CD player, which is a nice bonus but nothing I would ever spend money on. At that price range though, with so much on offer, is this just a bad compromise all around?

Are there any group comparisons for the 'all-in ones', ( preferably one for the below £1500, and one of the naim uniti and comparable machines) I am having a really hard time comparing them in terms of connectivity and streaming capabilities?

connectivity

My TV (ancient Sony KDL-40D3000) has audio outs, I have been told that this means I could plug it straight into Amp and use cheap internal DAC, which is fine by me since I am not too bothered by sound when I watch, as said above). My plan is to plug blu ray player, Humax freesat receiver and presumably Apple TV into TV via HDMI. Then an audio out from tv to DAC, and an audio out from Apple tv DAC. Since I don't know anything about these connection shenanigans, am I asking for a lot or will all these DACs have enough inputs for that?

if you are still awake after reading all or some of the above, let me entertain you with some networking issues:

Even if I get all of this set up and it is near perfect, there is no denying that My MacBook Pro HDD will be full sooner or later with all these lossless files. Putting iTunes on an external drive under the Sofa that I plug in and turn on everytime I want to play music seems like a lot of work. But I guess that's a question for the computer forum. Not sure if there are NAS that can run itunes. And even if they can, my router is in such a bad place that I couldn't connect them to the router (wireless NAS possible?), and I don't know if it is possible to set up itunes so one big library could be accessed from various computers, so this would all be possible for the rest of the family when I am out with the Macbook. But for the time being I expect to fit my music onto my macbook and don't mind turning the external hard-drive on for movies.

Yes, I think I'll leave the speakers out of this for now

Thank you for reading!

 

[pwiles1968]

As far as getting music from a PC or iTouch/Phone etc to the Hi fi I think your best bet would be an Airport Express, you can stream from any PC/Mac playing ALAC in iTunes to an AE either hard wired or wirelessley over WiFi once it is set up. http://store.apple.com/uk/product/FB321B/A?afid=p223|GBUK&cid=AOS-EMEA-SHOP-GoogleBase-UK

The AE has 2 options for outputting audio 3.5mm headphone that you could take direct to an amp or a optical out which you take to a DAC as mentioned above.

options for DAC's amps speakers are near infinate but I will offer two apm solutions to start with I am sure other people will chime in with other options and you will need to have a listen to see which you like the sound of.

First fully integrated solution with a DAC and tuner plus media streaming options the Marantz - M-CR603, you could add a nice 500 pound set of speakers and hit your £1000 http://whathifi.com/Review/Marantz-M-CR603/ . You may not even need the AE I beleive it may support Air Tunes

A Separates option is one I am currently seriously considering myself is the Audiolab 8200CDQ it is a CD Player with DAC and a Pre Amp it will be retailing for £900 it has 4 digital and 3 analogue inputs so TV etc are covered, you would need to add a power amplifier and speakers, as far as I have read this will be a very special piece of kit, it is very new so finding stock and getting a demo may take a little while, if you can wait a couple of months there will be an 8200 DQ which is the DAC and pre-amp think it will be about 700 if you have no need for a CD player, with a good power amp and speakers you will be looking nearer your 3k budget but it will be a really nice system. http://www.audiolab.co.uk/ProductDetail.aspx?lang=En&Tab2=8200CDQ

From what i have read the CDQ/DQ also has a USB input and you could plug your MacBook directly in to there and I think you can have basic control of iTunes from the CDQ remote.

 

[Helmut80]

thanks for reading and taking the time to reply pwiles.

That Audiolab combo looks stunning. Quick search says 8200 CDQ + the the 8200MB (you do need a power amp with the pre-amp right? yes newbie) would be £1800. Add a nice pair of B&W 683s maybe, or is there an obvious pairing choice for Audiolab equipment?

 

[Anonymous]

In the face of such Mac fan-ness I'd hesitate to point out that studios mostly use FLAC for mastering, most HD audio available is in FLAC and iTunes is not the greatest way to play music. Particularly if it can't deal with the industry standard FLAC? Really?

And I guess this is a dumb point to make in the environment of the posting, but audio stuff is meant to be heard, not looked at. If you are going to let your eyes do the buying, then go to the biggest audio chain stores and have a look around and buy what you like the look of. But remember there is absolutely no reason for any of your audio equipment to be on display except your speakers. Nothing has to even be particularly accessible, it only has to be turned on and off. Have you ever looked inside your iMac? Won't be pretty, I assure you

The CDQ is a CD player, so not the best option for someone moving to streaming. The biggest audio gain you are going to get relative to your recent habit of iPod+Bose is in the amplification and D/A conversion, with an possible additional boost coming from the move from highly compressed MP3 to something worth "listening" to.

The DAC on an iPod is pretty limited and even an entry-level hifi DAC will be a move forward. And while a good pair of headphones can sound pretty good, there's something about music from speakers in a room that makes leaves the best headphones wanting. And then the music format - if you were listening to 128kbps MP3 you were losing a lot of music; OTOH 320kbps MP3 is approaching the quality of CD, so ripping to lossless is not going to be a big step up.

Try to limit yourself to your budget and go separates. That way you can always upgrade later...

 

[Helmut80]

fair points of course putt1ck. I wasn't saying that ALACs are better than FLACs, all I meant to convey was that with my listening history and budget, and rather limited amount of classical music or jazz, I think ALAC will be fine for me. Obviously I wouldn't buy a nice looking piece of kit regardless of quality, all I meant was that aesthetics are one of the factors that come into play.

 

[Helmut80]

just occurred to me that this might be better off in the 'computer-based' forum

MODS, IS IT POSSIBLE TO MOVE THIS THREAD?

 

[Anonymous]

I use an Airport Express for ALAC from my mac and its terrific. Wanted an AppleTV but they don't sell it here because there's no demand.

Other amps that have onboard DACs are the HK 980 and 990 that you mention - no idea what they're like - and the Peachtree Audio iDecco or Nova. I've heard the last two and thought them very good indeed.

If you want floor standers then Q Acoustics make some excellent value-for-money ones at the moment. The best small floor stander I've heard is the Totem Arro, but its beyond your budget.

You can get a NAS which connects to your router and runs itunes server, the LaCie series. The downside is that it iTunes server doesn't work with ALAC, only the other Apple formats. However, there's nothing to stop you putting your itunes library on it as the Mac will see it on the network.

Personally, I'd spend the money now so I didn't have to upgrade again for another decade, which for me would mean the Uniti Qute or Uniti plus the Totems.

 

[ID.]

As an Esoteric fanboy I'd be very tempted by the Esoteric (thoroughly enjoying my Esoteric RZ-1), and they also seem to be moving into making their CD players double as DACs. I'd imagine it would outclass the Arcam and a number of the others you mentioned (but never heard most of them so you'd definitely want an audition)

 

[Helmut80]

Grottyash:
I use an Airport Express for ALAC from my mac and its terrific. Wanted an AppleTV but they don't sell it here because there's no demand.

Other amps that have onboard DACs are the HK 980 and 990 that you mention - no idea what they're like - and the Peachtree Audio iDecco or Nova. I've heard the last two and thought them very good indeed.

If you want floor standers then Q Acoustics make some excellent value-for-money ones at the moment. The best small floor stander I've heard is the Totem Arro, but its beyond your budget.

You can get a NAS which connects to your router and runs itunes server, the LaCie series. The downside is that it iTunes server doesn't work with ALAC, only the other Apple formats. However, there's nothing to stop you putting your itunes library on it as the Mac will see it on the network.

Personally, I'd spend the money now so I didn't have to upgrade again for another decade, which for me would mean the Uniti Qute or Uniti plus the Totems.

I think that is my general attitude as well. I am just a bit wary because the whole streaming is still fairly new in the hifi world and seems to improve fairly quickly in a short span of time

 

[Craig M.]

are you set on floorstanders? you could get avi adm9.1 active speakers with inbuilt dac and pre amp, then add an airport express and job done. you will not get anywhere near the sound quality without spending a lot more, and much simpler and neater then seperates. or wait until march (i think) for the floorstanding version.

 

[Helmut80]

No I am not at all set on floorstanders, i haven't auditioned anything yet. It's just that bass is very important to me and I don't want to add a sub to the equation.

 

[pwiles1968]

putt1ck:

The CDQ is a CD player, so not the best option for someone moving to streaming.

I'm no fan-boy myself (I do own 2 apple products) but do have some experience in the field for which the OP wanted some suggestions so thought I would add some.

The 8200CD is a DAC, which also plays CD's the CDQ is a DAC and preamp which also plays CD's it is the Perfect solution for someone moving to steaming, you can also play CD's if you want. It is not the only solution and I am sure others will come up with more, but please don't knock suggestions unless you actually have knowledge of them.

BTW FLAC and ALAC are just different containers for the same material they are both lossless and can be converted to and from either format without loss of any data.

 

[pwiles1968]

Helmut80:No I am not at all set on floorstanders, i haven't auditioned anything yet. It's just that bass is very important to me and I don't want to add a sub to the equation.

I read a review recently where the CDQ was used in conjunction with some Dynaudio DM 2/6 Think the amp was Bryston which is over the top for your budget but the speakers may be worth an audition, if you Google "Dynaudio DM 2/6 8200CDQ" you will find the article

 

[Anonymous]

Helmut80:No I am not at all set on floorstanders, i haven't auditioned anything yet. It's just that bass is very important to me and I don't want to add a sub to the equation. In that case give the Totems a listen. Unless you have a vast room their bass is pretty good for their size.

 

[Messiah]

Helmut80:

at this point in time, at the beginning of my hi-fi journey, with my £1k budget, separates seems the only option as the all-in one systems seem to start in the high three figures. So in order to stream ALACs from my Macbook Pro, I am looking at a stereo amp £300-£500 (or £200-£300 secondhand) + DAC (ranging from £140 for Beresford to £300 for rDAC) + Apple TV/Aiport Express (I have been looking for an excuse to get an ATV2 for a while, and it doesn't cost much more than AE, so that seems to be decided). +£500-700 for a pair of floorstanders.

And here is where my interest for -all-in-one (or at least 'more integrated' ) systems began. DACs are ugly. The cheapest DAC that I would actually consider having in my living room is the Musical Fidelity M1. DacMagic and rDac look like modems, and let's not even talk about the Beresfords and V-DAC). And I simply like it clean and tidy, the less boxes the better. The issue here is of course, which compromise is best?

The only way around a separate DAC at my budget seems to be the Harman Kardon 3490, at less than £300! Powerful amp, internal DAC, even a tuner I think. The alternative would be a used NAD c352 + DacMagic, although then we are already looking at £450+. I suspect I would be happy with the HK 3490.

educate me on all-in-one system

I have done a fair bit of research on this, but it seems that there isn't an all-in-one system that allows me to stream ALAC, or am I mistaken? As with everything hi-fi, I assume that when you increase quality you have to keep everything separate, i.e. pre-amp, power-amp + pricey DAC. I am not really interested in that though because I like to have as little kit as possible (without compromising on sound too much of course) and with mortgage, cars, motorbikes and 2 girls in school for the next coupe of decades, I very much doubt that I will spend that kind of many anytime soon, if ever.

As I understand it the Esoteric is 'just amp+ DAC (like the Harman Kardon HK990. Different price range, I know, but I did see a nearly new Esoteric for £1350). I am only mentioning the Esoteric because it is just so beautiful Are there other Amps with DAC in the £1k-1.5k range? And will they always be worse than spending the money on 2 separates?

As has been mentioned before, I would certainly shortlist the AVI ADM 9Ts. They are a very neat solution and seem to tick your boxes. They are Active speakers with a pre-amp and DAC built in and the sound quality is simply stunning.

Helmut80:

connectivity

My TV (ancient Sony KDL-40D3000) has audio outs, I have been told that this means I could plug it straight into Amp and use cheap internal DAC, which is fine by me since I am not too bothered by sound when I watch, as said above). My plan is to plug blu ray player, Humax freesat receiver and presumably Apple TV into TV via HDMI. Then an audio out from tv to DAC, and an audio out from Apple tv DAC. Since I don't know anything about these connection shenanigans, am I asking for a lot or will all these DACs have enough inputs for that?

So you are connecting everything to the TV via HDMI and then outputting it to the DAC. Along with this you will be connecting the Apple TV directly to the DAC. Therefore the DAC would need 2 inputs. Well the ADMs have 2 optical inputs and also an analogue connection.

 

[Craig M.]

Helmut80:No I am not at all set on floorstanders, i haven't auditioned anything yet. It's just that bass is very important to me and I don't want to add a sub to the equation.

hmmm, if you like a lot of bass the adm9.1 is probably not for you. i'd look a bit more at the dynaudio recommendation - they usually have a strong bass output, although some models need a powerful amp to control them and a good bit of space around them.

 

[Helmut80]

pwiles1968:
Helmut80:No I am not at all set on floorstanders, i haven't auditioned anything yet. It's just that bass is very important to me and I don't want to add a sub to the equation.

I read a review recently where the CDQ was used in conjunction with some Dynaudio DM 2/6 Think the amp was Bryston which is over the top for your budget but the speakers may be worth an audition, if you Google "Dynaudio DM 2/6 8200CDQ" you will find the article

thanks for the recommendation, found the review

 

[Helmut80]

Helmut80:
just occurred to me that this might be better off in the 'computer-based' forum

MODS, IS IT POSSIBLE TO MOVE THIS THREAD to 'computer based music'?

Monday morning bump

 

[Anonymous]

My first step would be to get a great set of speakers around which your system can be tailored, especially as technology for digital music will change so much over the next few years.

Not sure if this is anti forum guidelines (apologies if it is) but a Chelmsford hi fi store had a wonderful pair of spendor s9 speakers for £1,000. I've listened to them via an arcam set up and the sound was astonishingly good. Fingers crossed they're still in stock!

They really showed how important a good amp is too, and when running the arcam it was a huge step up vs using an integrated amp. (I got to demo both types, both made by Arcam). This would give you a great basis around which you could tailor a digital feed depending on your remaining budget and requirements ie wanting apple alac vs will any dacs decode alac rather than flac!

You would be able to have super quality speakers and can test the correct source for your system. Let's be honest the etchnology will continue changing over the next few years and you'll probably want to change/upgrade a digital source a few times yet - but a good set of speakers will always be so.

I would be interested to see how this thread goes as I am in the same position as you.

Personally I want to know whether using an apple tv would send a lossless signal to the dac, or whether it would step the signal down beforehand meaning the dac never receives an alac input and all your effort ripping to alac is wasted??

 

[The_Lhc]

Funkstar:Not sure if this is anti forum guidelines (apologies if it is) but a Chelmsford hi fi store had a wonderful pair of spendor s9 speakers for £1,000.

Would that be the one that doesn't sound like it's based in Chelmsford (I can't even think of another one in Chelmsford to be honest!)? I bought my speakers from them many many years ago.

 

[Andrew Everard]

Helmut80:just occurred to me that this might be better off in the 'computer-based' forum

MODS, IS IT POSSIBLE TO MOVE THIS THREAD?

Your shout is our command...

 

[Andrew Everard]

the_lhc:Would that be the one that doesn't sound like it's based in Chelmsford (I can't even think of another one in Chelmsford to be honest!)? I bought my speakers from them many many years ago.

To be honest, we Rayleigh don't know which one you mean, but they're £1020.

 

[Helmut80]

Andrew Everard:Helmut80:just occurred to me that this might be better off in the 'computer-based' forum

MODS, IS IT POSSIBLE TO MOVE THIS THREAD?

Your shout is our command...

 

[Helmut80]

Funkstar:
My first step would be to get a great set of speakers around which your system can be tailored, especially as technology for digital music will change so much over the next few years.

Not sure if this is anti forum guidelines (apologies if it is) but a Chelmsford hi fi store had a wonderful pair of spendor s9 speakers for £1,000. I've listened to them via an arcam set up and the sound was astonishingly good. Fingers crossed they're still in stock!

They really showed how important a good amp is too, and when running the arcam it was a huge step up vs using an integrated amp. (I got to demo both types, both made by Arcam). This would give you a great basis around which you could tailor a digital feed depending on your remaining budget and requirements ie wanting apple alac vs will any dacs decode alac rather than flac!

You would be able to have super quality speakers and can test the correct source for your system. Let's be honest the etchnology will continue changing over the next few years and you'll probably want to change/upgrade a digital source a few times yet - but a good set of speakers will always be so.

I would be interested to see how this thread goes as I am in the same position as you.

Personally I want to know whether using an apple tv would send a lossless signal to the dac, or whether it would step the signal down beforehand meaning the dac never receives an alac input and all your effort ripping to alac is wasted??

That is a very good point. (as we speak, I am back at getting a Mac mini as my solution, as I need to be able to attach lots of storage, and it could of course also be used for movies).

Second hand speakers fir a third of the RRP, that's exactly the srot of thing I had in mind

 

[Anonymous]

They're a great buy in my opinion and if it weren't for the fact i've just bought my first home and my gf would kill me I'd have snapped them up at the start of January!!