Arcam and ATC advice needed

[Alberich]

Hello everyone,

I don't wish to reignite the 'ATC power' debate but I'm looking for advice regarding my Arcam ATC setup.

At the moment I have a pair of SCM11S on the end of an A19.
This pairing was never meant to be a final solution as my intention was to pick up a P38 or P35 to drive the 11s while using the pre-amp on the A19.

My problem is that I'm finding the A19 so impotent driving the 11s that i'm now unsure wheather my original plan to add an Arcam power amp will be sufficient to bring the 11s to life?

My experience to date has only been with integrated's so I'm unsure whether the 105wpc of a dedicated power amp will make a significant difference.

Any advice is more than welcome and hopefully there is somebody out there who has first hand experience with an Arcam power amp and ATC combo.

Thanks for reading☺

 

[lpv]

Hello everyone,

I don't wish to reignite the 'ATC power' debate but I'm looking for advice regarding my Arcam ATC setup.

At the moment I have a pair of SCM11S on the end of an A19. This pairing was never meant to be a final solution as my intention was to pick up a P38 or P35 to drive the 11s while using the pre-amp on the A19.

My problem is that I'm finding the A19 so impotent driving the 11s that i'm now unsure wheather my original plan to add an Arcam power amp will be sufficient to bring the 11s to life?

My experience to date has only been with integrated's so I'm unsure whether the 105wpc of a dedicated power amp will make a significant difference.

Any advice is more than welcome and hopefully there is somebody out there who has first hand experience with an Arcam power amp and ATC combo.

Thanks for reading☺

hi and welcome.

looks we have atc week. never heard the combo but interested what others got to say.

 

[Alberich]

Thanks ipv,

I see you have had your share of ATC's, albeit not paired with Arcam. Nonetheless your experience regarding suitable amplification is welcome

 

[ChrisIRL]

I think you should sell the ATCs, they're awful

 

[Al ears]

I think you should sell the ATCs, they're awful

Ditto that Arcam.

 

[lpv]

as I see it - power amps should add nothing to the signal except amplify it so in theory more powerfull amp will help here if the manufacturer kept the signal clear ( no filters, tweaking the sound etc) I know ATC own amps - however costly - sounds great right from all in one SIACD.. second hand SIA2 appears from time to time on sale for less or around £2000.. I had mine used and sold with small profit so if you think you don't like it you won't loose.. but I think their amps are no compromise and no disapointment and perfect match. that said I also think Hegel is a great, less expensive alternative.

 

[Alberich]

as I see it - power amps should add nothing to the signal except amplify it so in theory more powerfull amp will help here if
the manufacturer kept the signal clear ( no filters, tweaking the sound etc) I know ATC own amps -
however costly - sounds great right from all in one SIACD.. second hand SIA2 appears from time to time on sale for less or around £2000.. I had mine used and  sold with small profit so if you think you don't like it you won't loose.. but I think their amps are no compromise and no disapointment and perfect match. that said I also think Hegel is a great, less expensive alternative. 

Thanks,

Yes Hegel are an option if I dump the Arcam.
A short while ago I did a direct comparison between the H80 and the A19 driving a pair of LS50s and I won't report my findings for fear of raising a few hairs.
I'm happy with the sonic character of the 19 and Arcam in general, I'm just looking for more grunt to drive these 11s.

As talented as the 19 is it hasn't got the muscle to make these 11s sing. Imo.
At the moment they sound like they're stuck in their shell
And only showing a fraction of their potential.

 

[Alberich]

Any of ATC's own amplification is beyond me at this present time, unfortunately.

 

[lpv]

have you seen this one?

http://www.audio-markt.de/_markt/item.php?id=6361397380&audioauktion=159b7bb41b27d2c982b5332d7aad5aa1

 

[Alberich]

have you seen this one??

http://www.audio-
markt.de/_markt/item.php?
id=6361397380&audioauktion=159b7bb41b27d2c982b5332d7aad5aa1

Thanks for that, much appreciated.
It looks mint.
I may bite the bullet for that price.
I'll certainly keep my eye on it.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Id say for atc you need watts. More the better lowest id have is about 120 w

Ive heard great results myself with hegel/atc

 

[plastic penguin]

Hello everyone,

I don't wish to reignite the 'ATC power' debate but I'm looking for advice regarding my Arcam ATC setup.

At the moment I have a pair of SCM11S on the end of an A19. This pairing was never meant to be a final solution as my intention was to pick up a P38 or P35 to drive the 11s while using the pre-amp on the A19.

My problem is that I'm finding the A19 so impotent driving the 11s that i'm now unsure wheather my original plan to add an Arcam power amp will be sufficient to bring the 11s to life?

My experience to date has only been with integrated's so I'm unsure whether the 105wpc of a dedicated power amp will make a significant difference.

Any advice is more than welcome and hopefully there is somebody out there who has first hand experience with an Arcam power amp and ATC combo.

Thanks for reading☺

As an Arcam fanboy, their achilles heel, certainly with entry-level models, is they lack a pure current. As a consequence they can find driving speakers with a low db rate challenging.

Power amp will help the situation as the current is a little purer, but a better option would be to look at other speakers, such as Focal, PMC, Dali, Tannoy or Monitor Audio. They may not be as technically 'gifted' as the ATCs but hi-fi is all about the ideal match and synergy.

Or look at a better Arcam amp: I would explore a s/hand A38 or one of the newer flagship models.

 

[drummerman]

What about Nord's Hypex power amplifiers. You have to wait for a while as Hypex stocks are down at present but you'll see the drivers of your ATC toddlers flying across the room if so desired.

 

[Pedro2]

What about Nord's Hypex power amplifiers. You have to wait for a while as Hypex stocks are down at present but you'll see the drivers of your ATC toddlers flying across the room if so desired.

+1

Exactly my thoughts, Drummerman. I phoned Colin at Nord last week, debit card in hand, only to be given the news on supply delays. I'm now hoping that these can be resolved soon as it still appears to be the best option (for new kit as opposed to 2nd hand) for driving ATCs.

Interesting that the OP is finding some issues with the Arcam, though. I'm currently driving a pair of SCM11s using the built in amp with a Linn Majik DSM (50 watts approx into 8 0hms?) and the sound is surprisingly good. Actually sold a Roksan Caspian Power because the comparison with the Linn wasn't that favourable (little harsh when turned up) and this is with Linn amps that don't usually get good press outside of the Linn 'family'. Maybe it's this synergy thing; who knows?

As regards Arcam, I imagine their beefy P49 power amp would definitely do the business but they're not cheap (even ex demo).

Thing is, the ATCs can be driven by smaller amps and will still sound very good (think that Rick at Musicraft mentioned this) so they don't have to have bags of power (especially in small/medium size room) but I also know that the more quality watts you can throw at them, they just seem to keep getting better. Which brings me back to Nord and the Hypex.....

ps My kit shows Linn Chakra power but I've sold it. It had more power and control than the Majik but somehow seemed slightly 'constipated' in delivery compared to its smaller cousin. I want the power, the detail, the excitement ....... etc etc

 

[drummerman]

What about Nord's Hypex power amplifiers. You have to wait for a while as Hypex stocks are down at present but you'll see the drivers of your ATC toddlers flying across the room if so desired.

+1

Exactly my thoughts, Drummerman. I phoned Colin at Nord last week, debit card in hand, only to be given the news on supply delays. I'm now hoping that these can be resolved soon as it still appears to be the best option (for new kit as opposed to 2nd hand) for driving ATCs.

Interesting that the OP is finding some issues with the Arcam, though. I'm currently driving a pair of SCM11s using the built in amp with a Linn Majik DSM (50 watts approx into 8 0hms?) and the sound is surprisingly good. Actually sold a Roksan Caspian Power because the comparison with the Linn wasn't that favourable (little harsh when turned up) and this is with Linn amps that don't usually get good press outside of the Linn 'family'. Maybe it's this synergy thing; who knows?

As regards Arcam, I imagine their beefy P49 power amp would definitely do the business but they're not cheap (even ex demo).

Thing is, the ATCs can be driven by smaller amps and will still sound very good (think that Rick at Musicraft mentioned this) so they don't have to have bags of power (especially in small/medium size room) but I also know that the more quality watts you can throw at them, they just seem to keep getting better. Which brings me back to Nord and the Hypex.....

ps My kit shows Linn Chakra power but I've sold it. It had more power and control than the Majik but somehow seemed slightly 'constipated' in delivery compared to its smaller cousin. I want the power, the detail, the excitement ....... etc etc

Interesting and that includes the comparison with lower/higher power of your Linn amplifiers.

Not unique to Linn smaller amplifiers sometimes have the upper hand in perceived musicality, flow, rythm etc in exchange for less ultimate driving ability.

The OP's ATC, as has been mentioned many times in other threads, are not a particularely difficult load even for low/er powered amplifiers but are just inefficient. As long as high loudness is not required even modestly good quality amplifiers should be ok.

ATC's have often been described as slightly matter of fact. Perhaps it is this characteristic that doesn't make the earth move for the OP?

 

[Alberich]

Let's see if I can actually post something

 

[Alberich]

Sorry to all. I tried to post a lengthy reply to everyone but the site kept crashing.
I'll retype it

 

[Alberich]

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions. Much appreciated.

Andrewjvt ;
I've read quite a few reports that Hegel and ATC are a decent pairing.
The only Hegel within my budget would be the H80.
75wpc would improve things but i'd agree that it's better to go closer if not over the 100 mark.

Plastic penguin;
I'm a bit of an Arcam fan myself and would idealy like to stick with their amplification.
I almost exclusively listen to classical music and there is something about Arcam's presentation of classical that just does it for me.

I would agree with you about their entry level amps being somewhat underpowered.
From the start I found the A19 a little underpowered but loved it's sonic character and timbre with an orchestra.

Do you think that the P38 would have the same pure current as the A38 since they're both 105wpc?
I would imagine that being a dedicated power amp current would be one of its prime attributes.
And if I could use the 19 as pre-amp it would save me having to sell it on.
Would like to know your thoughts on that.

Also, your suggestion about speaker change is an interesting one. I would consider something from PMC or Focal if I can't get the best out of these 11s.

Drummerman;
Thanks for the heads up about Nord.
Not a brand I'm too familiar with but after having a quick look they look like they could drive absolutely anything!
Certainly worth investigating.

Another reason for sticking with Arcam is I wouldn't be too knowledgeable about technicalities like gain maching and stuff.

Regarding whether ATC might be slightly too mater of fact for my taste I can say I'm in awe of their neutrality.
They're never clinical and excell with acoustic instruments.
That new tweeter is wonderful. At first it appears a little dark but then you realise it's actually just free of sibilance or shrill.
Most natural violin I've heard to date.

Thanks again for everyone's feedback.
Surely there's someone out there who has heard an ATC P38/P35 combo.

 

[Alberich]

What about Nord's Hypex power amplifiers. You have to wait for a while as Hypex stocks are down at present but you'll see the drivers of your ATC toddlers flying across the room if so desired.

+1

Exactly my thoughts, Drummerman. I phoned Colin at Nord last week, debit card in hand, only to be given the news on supply delays. I'm now hoping that these can be resolved soon as it still appears to be the best option (for new kit as opposed to 2nd hand) for driving ATCs.

Interesting that the OP is finding some issues with the Arcam, though. I'm currently driving a pair of SCM11s using the built in amp with a Linn Majik DSM (50 watts approx into 8 0hms?) and the sound is surprisingly good. Actually sold a Roksan Caspian Power because the comparison with the Linn wasn't that favourable (little harsh when turned up) and this is with Linn amps that don't usually get good press outside of the Linn 'family'. Maybe it's this synergy thing; who knows?

As regards Arcam, I imagine their beefy P49 power amp would definitely do the business but they're not cheap (even ex demo).

Thing is, the ATCs can be driven by smaller amps and will still sound very good (think that Rick at Musicraft mentioned this) so they don't have to have bags of power (especially in small/medium size room) but I also know that the more quality watts you can throw at them, they just seem to keep getting better. Which brings me back to Nord and the Hypex.....?

ps My kit shows Linn Chakra power but I've sold it. It had more power and control than the Majik but somehow seemed slightly 'constipated' in delivery compared to its smaller cousin. I want the power, the detail, the excitement ....... etc etc

Hi Pedro,

I think you're right in that the 11s can be driven with a 50wpc amp or similar.
A friend of mine has had great success driving the 11s with his Nait 5si.
And it sounds like you have no issues with your Linn.

This A19 is having particular trouble.
As you say it could be a synergy thing.
Maybe Arcam and ATC are not the best of bed fellows.

I auditioned quite a few speakers on the 19 and it drove the LS50s beautifully.
Had no trouble with a pair of CM1S aswell which are 84db I think.
Although it didn't get on with a pair of DM 2/6. It may be a fickle little amp.

 

[plastic penguin]

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions. Much appreciated.

Plastic penguin; I'm a bit of an Arcam fan myself and would idealy like to stick with their amplification. I almost exclusively listen to classical music and there is something about Arcam's presentation of classical that just does it for me.

I would agree with you about their entry level amps being somewhat underpowered. From the start I found the A19 a little underpowered but loved it's sonic character and timbre with an orchestra.

Do you think that the P38 would have the same pure current as the A38 since they're both 105wpc? I would imagine that being a dedicated power amp current would be one of its prime attributes. And if I could use the 19 as pre-amp it would save me having to sell it on. Would like to know your thoughts on that.

Also, your suggestion about speaker change is an interesting one. I would consider something from PMC or Focal if I can't get the best out of these 11s.

Regarding whether ATC might be slightly too mater of fact for my taste I can say I'm in awe of their neutrality. They're never clinical and excell with acoustic instruments. That new tweeter is wonderful. At first it appears a little dark but then you realise it's actually just free of sibilance or shrill. Most natural violin I've heard to date.

The P38 will improve things, using the A19 as a preamp but.... between the power amp or a A38, I would plump for the latter.

Yeah, PMC and Focal are great matches with Arcam. When I had my A65+ they powered DB1i and Focal 714V without any issues. Very impressive for a £350 amp.

The one main concern about using a P38 with A19 is it might be an overkill. Personally, I would look at the older DIVA P75 or P80. They're as cheap as chips and there's little to go wrong with the internals.

It took me around two years to find a worthwhile replacement to the A65. I ended up with the Leema Pulse; had it nearly 6 years and it still makes me smile.

 

[Alberich]

[/quote]

The P38 will improve things, using the A19 as a preamp but.... between the power amp or a A38, I would plump for the latter.

Yeah, PMC and Focal are great matches with Arcam. When I had my A65+ they powered DB1i and Focal 714V without any issues. Very impressive for a £350 amp.

The one main concern about using a P38 with A19 is it might be an overkill. Personally, I would look at the older DIVA P75 or P80. They're as cheap as chips and there's little to go wrong with the internals.

It took me around two years to find a worthwhile replacement to the A65. I ended up with the Leema Pulse; had it nearly 6 years and it still makes me smile.
[/quote]

Thanks for the input,

I have considered the older Diva powers as well as the Alpha's.
It would maybe have to be the P85 or P95 as they are 85 to 90wpc which I think is going to have to be the minimum i reckon.

Arcam suggest the P38 as a direct upgrade to the A19 so I imagine there is a designed synergy between them.
It's a possibility that Arcam and ATC don't get on regardless of power.
I'll know soon enough as I think I may just have to bite the bullet.

From what I've read those DB1i's could be a little lighter on their toes than the 11s and it does seem that Arcam like a fast speaker.
Something to consider as well as Focal.

Thanks!

 

[plastic penguin]

IIRC the P38 has been around for a few years. At least since A18 and A38 came to fruition. As the P38 is the only power amp Arcam offer now, you have little choice unless you look at the older Alphas or DIVAs.

As regards the PMCs: fantastic little speakers. Not as neutral or detailed as the ATCs but the musical whole is joyous. The midrange is quite smooth and well defined and the highs are fab. The only caveat about the little PMCs is *perhaps* lacking a little in the bass dept. Not surprising given how small they are.

I own their bigger brothers TB2i that gives a broader soundstage. Nonetheless, if you're just looking for a cracking playback, as opposed to dissecting the music, little betters the DB1is with Arcam.

However, because the 'i' series has been ditched for the Twenty, I'd have a listen to the Twenty 21s. They should bring you closer to the ATCs in terms of detail and neutrality....

I've heard the 23s with a Rega Elicit-R amp and a Yam receiver: Sounded terrific to my ears.

 

[Alberich]

IIRC the P38 has been around for a few years. At least since A18 and A38 came to fruition. As the P38 is the only power amp Arcam offer now, you have little choice unless you look at the older Alphas or DIVAs.

As regards the PMCs: fantastic little speakers. Not as neutral or detailed as the ATCs but the musical whole is joyous. The midrange is quite smooth and well defined and the highs are fab. The only caveat about the little PMCs is *perhaps* lacking a little in the bass dept. Not surprising given how small they are.

I own their bigger brothers TB2i that gives a broader soundstage. Nonetheless, if you're just looking for a cracking playback, as opposed to dissecting the music, little betters the DB1is with Arcam.

However, because the 'i' series has been ditched for the Twenty, I'd have a listen to the Twenty 21s. They should bring you closer to the ATCs in terms of detail and neutrality....

I've heard the 23s with a Rega Elicit-R amp and a Yam receiver: Sounded terrific to my ears.

Thanks PP, much appreciated

Yes youre right the P38 has been around since the 18 and 38. I think it was the direct upgrade for the 18. To my mind at least that transfers over to the 19 as it's not dissimilar to the 18.
I'm pretty confident that most arcam integrated's and powers are a pain free fit.

I suppose my biggest worry is whether an Arcam power add on is going to be sufficient kick up the bum that i feel these 11s need.

Those twenty 21s look like they could match what the 11s bring to the table. And may ultimately be a better match with Arcam.

As I mentioned earlier the A19 drove the CM1's no bother. And with great synergy. Would have bought them except my ears can't get on with metal tweeters, but that's another topic.

 

[plastic penguin]

The only thing I can suggest is to either phone around Arcam high street dealers and see if you can blag a P38 from them to test. If you explain your dilemma I'm pretty sure they'll be forthcoming.

Or keep looking on one of the auction sites. One will appear sooner or later, and if they are an online dealer they usually have a returns policy... just in case it doesn't meet your expectations.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Happy with the a38
If you dont get on with the atcs and decide on the 21s contact me ill buy ya 11s lol.

But deep down once you have more power i think youll really love your 11s again.

Ps if you look on ebay you might see some good deals second hand and also on leema amps